Help in decoding coat of arms

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butlergrt

Help in decoding coat of arms

Legg inn av butlergrt » 15 okt 2005 21:22:41

Good afternoon,
I have come across another Butler family in wales, a John Butler who held
the manor of Pembroke for the honor of Lancaster and the manor of DunRaven
for the honor of Glamorganshire. In the visitation of Wales, it lists his
shield as follows:
Qu. 1 & 4 azure, three covered cups or.(Butler)
2 Gules,fretty argent overall, a fess azure(Fleming)
3. Argent, 3 cornish choughs in feww sable, beaked and legged, Gules
Crest on a wreath Or and Azure issuing from a ducal crown Or, a covered
cup Or. Mantling azure and ermine. Now I know the Butler Ormond
basic shield and surmise that the 2nd quarter is from a Fleming family,
but the 3rd, I do not recognize it, any thought from anyone out there who
is savvy in shield reading??!!! I know farom what little i can find on the
Butlers of Dunraven that the lineage is garbled, and the stories even fron
the ul.gov. is pretty off base.. I have found in Carte III Edward where
John de Bohun grants the manor of Kilpec and Trunnel, co Hereford and the
bailiffship of the forest of Hay to James the earl of Omond and Eleanor
his wife and heirs of their body, and that the kilpecs had interest in
Castle Dunraven and the manor of Pembroke but not much else to go on. And
where does this John Butler, obviously descended from the earl of Ormonds
line come from??? I found him accidentally. Thoughts are welcome and
thanks.
Best Regards,
Emmett

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Help in decoding coat of arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 okt 2005 17:01:50

In message of 15 Oct, "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com> wrote:

Good afternoon,
I have come across another Butler family in wales, a John Butler who held
the manor of Pembroke for the honor of Lancaster and the manor of DunRaven
for the honor of Glamorganshire. In the visitation of Wales, it lists his
shield as follows:
Qu. 1 & 4 azure, three covered cups or.(Butler)
2 Gules,fretty argent overall, a fess azure(Fleming)
3. Argent, 3 cornish choughs in feww sable, beaked and legged, Gules
Crest on a wreath Or and Azure issuing from a ducal crown Or, a covered
cup Or. Mantling azure and ermine. Now I know the Butler Ormond
basic shield and surmise that the 2nd quarter is from a Fleming family,
but the 3rd, I do not recognize it, any thought from anyone out there who
is savvy in shield reading??!!!

I have looked at the "Dictionary of British Arms Medieval Ordinary" Vol
2, pp 171-2 where is deals with arms that have three birds on them. But
there is nothing that resembles this Coat. However this Ordinary is
only concerned with arms of before 1530.

If you want a guess, the last paragraph on page 44 of the "Visitation
by the Heralds in Wales", edited by Michael Powell Siddons and published
by the Harleian Society in 1996, has this:

"Youe shall vnderstand that the graund father of this John Butler the
younger and the graundefather to Arnold Butler aforesayde, were
bretherne, and this John Butler ye younger berythe but the Butlers
armys onely, with a difference for the secounde brother. Also
Elysabeth, doughter and sole heyre to Percyvall of Pembrokeshire, was
graunde mother to the sayde John Butler the yonger."

I would guess that this unknown quartering was that of these Percivals
of Pembrokes.

I know farom what little i can find on the Butlers of Dunraven that
the lineage is garbled, and the stories even fron the ul.gov. is
pretty off base.. I have found in Carte III Edward where John de
Bohun grants the manor of Kilpec and Trunnel, co Hereford and the
bailiffship of the forest of Hay to James the earl of Omond and
Eleanor his wife and heirs of their body, and that the kilpecs had
interest in Castle Dunraven and the manor of Pembroke but not much
else to go on. And where does this John Butler, obviously descended
from the earl of Ormonds line come from???

I can't see that 'obviously' bit.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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