Alberada de (of) MONS

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Leo Akershoek

Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Leo Akershoek » 13 okt 2005 01:26:08

Hello,

I am looking for info on the ancestors of:

Alberade de Mons.

ALBERADE died on ?? (after 916) and was married circa 900 to RENIER I, Count of Lorraine, born in the year 860, died between August 25, 915 and January 15, 916,

Is there someone who will help me, please???

I am looking forward to receiving any comments/corrections/additions to the above data.

Best regards,

-\!!/-
{ o o }
( _ )
'''''
Leo Akershoek

Leo van de Pas

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 okt 2005 01:57:08

Dear Leo
In Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, 1961, page 52, you find even less than
what you give. Less and slightly different.

Giselbert, Count in Maasgau, died after 877 married 846 Irmgard daughter of
Emperor Lothar I and they are the parents of
Reginar I, Couint in Hennegau und Haspengau, since 905 Duke of Lorraine,
born about 850 died 915 (after 25 August). married Alberade, died after 919,
in 916 mentioned as a widow.

No indication as to the origin of Alberade. Sadly, Warlop has no Mons entry
in his book on the Flemish Nobility before 1300.
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Akershoek" <l.akershoek@hccnet.nl>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:43 AM
Subject: Alberada de (of) MONS


Hello,

I am looking for info on the ancestors of:

Alberade de Mons.

ALBERADE died on ?? (after 916) and was married circa 900 to RENIER I,
Count of Lorraine, born in the year 860, died between August 25, 915 and
January 15, 916,

Is there someone who will help me, please???

I am looking forward to receiving any comments/corrections/additions to
the above data.

Best regards,

-\!!/-
{ o o }
( _ )
'''''
Leo Akershoek


Peter Stewart

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 13 okt 2005 10:56:26

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:004201c5cf80$43427700$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
Dear Leo
In Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, 1961, page 52, you find even less
than what you give. Less and slightly different.

Giselbert, Count in Maasgau, died after 877 married 846 Irmgard daughter
of Emperor Lothar I and they are the parents of
Reginar I, Couint in Hennegau und Haspengau, since 905 Duke of Lorraine,
born about 850 died 915 (after 25 August). married Alberade, died after
919, in 916 mentioned as a widow.

No indication as to the origin of Alberade. Sadly, Warlop has no Mons
entry in his book on the Flemish Nobility before 1300.

The family of Alberada is not recorded, and consequently she is not known to
have been the heiress of her husband's countship of Mons/Hainaut if that is
the suggestion in naming her "of Mons".

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2005 02:34:01

In a message dated 10/13/05 3:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< > Reginar I, Couint in Hennegau und Haspengau, since 905 Duke of Lorraine,
born about 850 died 915 (after 25 August).

This can be added to as follows :
"at the time of Reginar's funeral some time between August 915 and January
916, "

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 okt 2005 04:04:44

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:be.3354e7db.30805681@aol.com...
In a message dated 10/13/05 3:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com [did not] write:

Reginar I, Couint in Hennegau und Haspengau, since 905 Duke of
Lorraine,
born about 850 died 915 (after 25 August).

This can be added to as follows :
"at the time of Reginar's funeral some time between August 915 and January
916, "

I'm not sure who wrote the sentence quoted in your post, but it wasn't me.
Reginar I died between 25 August 915 & 19 January 916. I'm not sure how it
helps to add that he died at the time of his own funeral, but I trust the
two events occurred in the usual order. Reginar's son Gislebert was aged 20
at the time, according to Richer. Gislebert becamme duke of Lorraine in
920/1, but Reginar was described only as count or margrave & not duke as
stated above.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2005 21:28:02

In a message dated 10/13/05 8:15:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<<
I'm not sure who wrote the sentence quoted in your post, but it wasn't me.
Reginar I died between 25 August 915 & 19 January 916. I'm not sure how it
helps to add that he died at the time of his own funeral, but I trust the
two events occurred in the usual order. Reginar's son Gislebert was aged 20
at the time, according to Richer. Gislebert becamme duke of Lorraine in
920/1, but Reginar was described only as count or margrave & not duke as
stated above. >>

Here is the full text, Unfortunately I did not note who said it.
Maybe one of you recognizes your own words.

"Reginar probably had another wife before marrying Alberada. The only direct
evidence for this is an undated and possibly forged or at least miscopied
charter, that could not be earlier than 887, for Saint-Dagobert de Stenay, in
which a Count Reginar mentions his deceased wife Hersindis and apparently (I
haven't seen the text) qualifies himself as successor to Emperor Charles (the Fat).
This may have given rise to the idea that his wife had been a Carolingian
heiress; but since Charles the Fat had no legitimate offspring and Charles the
Bald had plenty, the paternity of Hersindis may have become speculatively (or
rather, imaginatively) transferred to the latter. There is very little
likelihood in my view that this could be correct, or worth discussing in Christian
Settipani's book. However, there is no particular reason I can see to doubt that a
lady of this name, of unknown family, was the first wife of Reginar. There
would appear to be no value for a forger in the invention of such a wife merely
to name her in passing.

Indirectly, it is probable that Reginar had another wife before Alberada: he
was evidently born ca 850, occurring in an official capacity by 877, whereas
his son Gislebert was apparently born as late as ca 895 - by my understanding
of Richer's account he had only recently attained the age of 20 at the time of
Reginar's funeral some time between August 915 and January 916, when the
latter's powers were conferred on him by King Charles the Simple: "Peractisque
exsequiis, Gisleberto eius filio, iam facto iuveni, paternum honorem, coram
principibus qui confluxerant liberalissime accommodat", see _Historiarum libri
IIII_, edited by Hartmut Hoffmann, MGH SS 38 (Hanover, 2000).

Gislebert was the son of Reginar and Alberada - this is known from a charter
of his wife Gerberga, on her return to Lorraine in February 968 (as the widow
by then also of King Louis IV): "Gerberga...Francorum Regina ... pro ...
remedio senioris nostri piæ memoriæ Gisleberti, suique parentum, patris scilicet et
matris, Rageneri et Albradæ [_Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la
France_ volume IX p. 666, 'Reginarum diplomata' no. 5]"

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 okt 2005 00:12:20

I don't understand your post - the "full text" copied below was written by
me some time ago, but this has nothing to do with the quotation from this
week in your earlier post, claiming that Reginar was duke rather than count
in 905, that was mistakenly ascribed to me.

Peter Stewart



<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:1f1.45f2c6d4.3081608b@aol.com...
In a message dated 10/13/05 8:15:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


I'm not sure who wrote the sentence quoted in your post, but it wasn't me.
Reginar I died between 25 August 915 & 19 January 916. I'm not sure how it
helps to add that he died at the time of his own funeral, but I trust the
two events occurred in the usual order. Reginar's son Gislebert was aged
20
at the time, according to Richer. Gislebert becamme duke of Lorraine in
920/1, but Reginar was described only as count or margrave & not duke as
stated above.

Here is the full text, Unfortunately I did not note who said it.
Maybe one of you recognizes your own words.

"Reginar probably had another wife before marrying Alberada. The only
direct
evidence for this is an undated and possibly forged or at least miscopied
charter, that could not be earlier than 887, for Saint-Dagobert de Stenay,
in
which a Count Reginar mentions his deceased wife Hersindis and apparently
(I
haven't seen the text) qualifies himself as successor to Emperor Charles
(the Fat).
This may have given rise to the idea that his wife had been a Carolingian
heiress; but since Charles the Fat had no legitimate offspring and Charles
the
Bald had plenty, the paternity of Hersindis may have become speculatively
(or
rather, imaginatively) transferred to the latter. There is very little
likelihood in my view that this could be correct, or worth discussing in
Christian
Settipani's book. However, there is no particular reason I can see to
doubt that a
lady of this name, of unknown family, was the first wife of Reginar. There
would appear to be no value for a forger in the invention of such a wife
merely
to name her in passing.

Indirectly, it is probable that Reginar had another wife before Alberada:
he
was evidently born ca 850, occurring in an official capacity by 877,
whereas
his son Gislebert was apparently born as late as ca 895 - by my
understanding
of Richer's account he had only recently attained the age of 20 at the
time of
Reginar's funeral some time between August 915 and January 916, when the
latter's powers were conferred on him by King Charles the Simple:
"Peractisque
exsequiis, Gisleberto eius filio, iam facto iuveni, paternum honorem,
coram
principibus qui confluxerant liberalissime accommodat", see _Historiarum
libri
IIII_, edited by Hartmut Hoffmann, MGH SS 38 (Hanover, 2000).

Gislebert was the son of Reginar and Alberada - this is known from a
charter
of his wife Gerberga, on her return to Lorraine in February 968 (as the
widow
by then also of King Louis IV): "Gerberga...Francorum Regina ... pro ...
remedio senioris nostri piæ memoriæ Gisleberti, suique parentum, patris
scilicet et
matris, Rageneri et Albradæ [_Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la
France_ volume IX p. 666, 'Reginarum diplomata' no. 5]"

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 okt 2005 02:47:00

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:e3.1e2da2a9.3081b7cd@aol.com...
In a message dated 10/14/05 4:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

I don't understand your post - the "full text" copied below was written
by
me some time ago, but this has nothing to do with the quotation from
this
week in your earlier post, claiming that Reginar was duke rather than
count
in 905, that was mistakenly ascribed to me.

The problem Peter is that this original message was embedded within a post
that you replied to. So when I replied, it carried the part I was cutting
and
attached your email as the sender. You had not sent the embedded quote,
you
had responded to it. So I will have to be more careful next time, to try
to
find the *original* email in order to respond to a portion of *it* instead
of
responding to an email that is already a *reply*.

I find that replying to replies works just as well as going back to the
original - the chevrons build up with each reply, so that the last writer's
post appears with just one at the start of each line (as above), the last
but one with two chevrons (again as above, although I had to amend this
because your e-mail settings had somehow altered it to <<...>> instead), and
so on.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 okt 2005 03:41:02

In a message dated 10/14/05 4:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< I don't understand your post - the "full text" copied below was written by
me some time ago, but this has nothing to do with the quotation from this
week in your earlier post, claiming that Reginar was duke rather than count
in 905, that was mistakenly ascribed to me. >>

The problem Peter is that this original message was embedded within a post
that you replied to. So when I replied, it carried the part I was cutting and
attached your email as the sender. You had not sent the embedded quote, you
had responded to it. So I will have to be more careful next time, to try to
find the *original* email in order to respond to a portion of *it* instead of
responding to an email that is already a *reply*.

Will Johnson

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 15 okt 2005 04:30:02

So it is understood then that Reginar I, though he may have been married
previously, was father of Giselbert by his wife Alberada? From the
earlier discussions I think I misunderstood the situation.

Roger LeBlanc

Peter Stewart

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 okt 2005 05:00:51

"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:4350695A.7060705@mts.net...
So it is understood then that Reginar I, though he may have been married
previously, was father of Giselbert by his wife Alberada?

That's right - Gislebert's widow Gerberga named his father and mother in a
charter of February 968: "Gerberga...pro...remedio senioris nostri piæ
memoriæ Gisleberti, suique parentum, patris scilicet et matris, Rageneri et
Albradæ [_Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France_ volume IX p.
666, 'Reginarum diplomata' no. 5].

Peter Stewart

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 okt 2005 14:35:23

In message of 15 Oct, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/14/05 4:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

I don't understand your post - the "full text" copied below was
written by me some time ago, but this has nothing to do with the
quotation from this week in your earlier post, claiming that Reginar
was duke rather than count in 905, that was mistakenly ascribed to
me.

The problem Peter is that this original message was embedded within a
post that you replied to. So when I replied, it carried the part I
was cutting and attached your email as the sender. You had not sent
the embedded quote, you had responded to it. So I will have to be
more careful next time, to try to find the *original* email in order
to respond to a portion of *it* instead of responding to an email
that is already a *reply*.

Some mail and news readers handle quoting of old messages and quoting
of quotes perfectly satisfactorily. They use the old internet custom of
automatically inserting right facing chevrons to the left of the quoted
text. If it is a quote of a quote then there are two such chevrons,
etc. I have altered the quoting of Peter's posting to show how this
should be done.

It may be that AOL's (AOL seems to be your ISP) sotware won't do this
quoting properly. I don't know if it is possible for you to use other
software and still participate in AOL.

There is similar problem with the use of Google Groups. Worse, even:
there is no quoting at all of the original message so you don't know
what is being replied to. This can be avoided, though by using one of
Google's options.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 okt 2005 14:41:26

In message of 15 Oct, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:e3.1e2da2a9.3081b7cd@aol.com...
In a message dated 10/14/05 4:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

I don't understand your post - the "full text" copied below was
written by me some time ago, but this has nothing to do with the
quotation from this week in your earlier post, claiming that
Reginar was duke rather than count in 905, that was mistakenly
ascribed to me.

The problem Peter is that this original message was embedded within
a post that you replied to. So when I replied, it carried the part
I was cutting and attached your email as the sender. You had not
sent the embedded quote, you had responded to it. So I will have
to be more careful next time, to try to find the *original* email in
order to respond to a portion of *it* instead of
responding to an email that is already a *reply*.

I find that replying to replies works just as well as going back to
the original - the chevrons build up with each reply, so that the
last writer's post appears with just one at the start of each line
(as above), the last but one with two chevrons (again as above,
although I had to amend this because your e-mail settings had
somehow altered it to <<...>> instead), and so on.

Precisely. But you are using Microsoft Outlook and have obviously found
how to get this to work right. Will is using AOL and I have gathered
in the past that they offer software that just does not do quoting
properly. Unless anyone knows different of course.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John P. Ravilious

Re: Alberada de (of) MONS

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 15 okt 2005 16:42:23

Dear Leo, et al.,

Concerning the daughter of the Emperor Lothar, I show the wife of
Giselbert as called NN. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 236 identifies her as a
daughter of King Lothar, a 'Karolinger', while some online sources (not
documented) call her 'Ermengarde'.

Does Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels give a source for calling
her Irmgard (evidently a variant of Ermengard/Ermengard)?

Cheers,

John


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Leo
In Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, 1961, page 52, you find even less than
what you give. Less and slightly different.

Giselbert, Count in Maasgau, died after 877 married 846 Irmgard daughter of
Emperor Lothar I and they are the parents of
Reginar I, Couint in Hennegau und Haspengau, since 905 Duke of Lorraine,
born about 850 died 915 (after 25 August). married Alberade, died after 919,
in 916 mentioned as a widow.

No indication as to the origin of Alberade. Sadly, Warlop has no Mons entry
in his book on the Flemish Nobility before 1300.
Leo van de Pas

SNIP

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