CP error?

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Clagett, Brice

CP error?

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 12 okt 2005 23:46:55

In _Genealogical Memoirs of the Counts of Eu in Normandy
996-1350 and of the English Earls of Eu of the House of
Bourchier 1419-1540_, by R.E.C. Waters (1886), it is said
at p.60 that William Viscount Bourchier "was slain with his
brother Humphrey at the battle of Barnet Field on 14 April,
1471, fighting on the side of King Edward." The source is
stated to be Polydore Virgil.

I remember reading somewhere that somebody concluded
that Waters was mistaken and that it was another of the
younger brothers, rather than William, who was killed with
Humphrey at Barnet. Could Waters have been right
after all? Did Virgil specify William or is that an interpre-
tation?

It does seem odd that there are so many versions as to the
time of death of such a prominent person.

Chris Phillips

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 12 okt 2005 23:46:56

Clagett, Brice wrote:
In _Genealogical Memoirs of the Counts of Eu in Normandy
996-1350 and of the English Earls of Eu of the House of
Bourchier 1419-1540_, by R.E.C. Waters (1886), it is said
at p.60 that William Viscount Bourchier "was slain with his
brother Humphrey at the battle of Barnet Field on 14 April,
1471, fighting on the side of King Edward." The source is
stated to be Polydore Virgil.

I remember reading somewhere that somebody concluded
that Waters was mistaken and that it was another of the
younger brothers, rather than William, who was killed with
Humphrey at Barnet. Could Waters have been right
after all? Did Virgil specify William or is that an interpre-
tation?


This does seem to be a vexed question.

CP ii 249 has him dying at Barnet 14 April 1471 in the account of Bourchier.
No specific reference, but several elsewhere in the account to Chester
Waters. It also describes his son and heir as posthumous, but doesn't say
when he was born.

CP v 138 (Essex) has him dying in his father's lifetime (therefore before 4
April 1483) but after 12 February 1482/3, citing a commission of the peace.
A footnote adds that he and his father had a pardon 2 July 1482, and says
"The statement that he was killed at the battle of Barnet in 1471 is due to
a misunderstanding of an erroneous remark in Warkworth's Chronicle, p. 17.
(G. W. Watson)."

CP vii 167 (Essex) follows Essex, but vii 168 the son of his widow's
subsequent marriage aged 25 at his father's death (16 December 1503), which
seems to push the remarriage back to 1478 or earlier. Leo van de Pas posted
that vol. 14 amended this account to have William dying before 8 February
1480 and his widow remarrying in June 1480.

I don't have a copy of vol. 14 to hand, so I don't know whether there are
corresponding corrections to the Bourchier and Kent accounts.

For what it's worth the new DNB sticks to 1483.

That's all I know, but maybe somebody can add more?

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 12 okt 2005 23:46:56

I wrote:
CP vii 167 (Essex) follows Essex,

Sorry, that should be "CP vii 167 (Kent) ..."

Chris Phillips

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 12 okt 2005 23:46:56

In message of 12 Oct, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Clagett, Brice wrote:
In _Genealogical Memoirs of the Counts of Eu in Normandy
996-1350 and of the English Earls of Eu of the House of
Bourchier 1419-1540_, by R.E.C. Waters (1886), it is said
at p.60 that William Viscount Bourchier "was slain with his
brother Humphrey at the battle of Barnet Field on 14 April,
1471, fighting on the side of King Edward." The source is
stated to be Polydore Virgil.

I remember reading somewhere that somebody concluded
that Waters was mistaken and that it was another of the
younger brothers, rather than William, who was killed with
Humphrey at Barnet. Could Waters have been right
after all? Did Virgil specify William or is that an interpre-
tation?


This does seem to be a vexed question.

CP ii 249 has him dying at Barnet 14 April 1471 in the account of Bourchier.
No specific reference, but several elsewhere in the account to Chester
Waters. It also describes his son and heir as posthumous, but doesn't say
when he was born.

CP v 138 (Essex) has him dying in his father's lifetime (therefore before 4
April 1483) but after 12 February 1482/3, citing a commission of the peace.
A footnote adds that he and his father had a pardon 2 July 1482, and says
"The statement that he was killed at the battle of Barnet in 1471 is due to
a misunderstanding of an erroneous remark in Warkworth's Chronicle, p. 17.
(G. W. Watson)."

CP vii 167 (Essex) follows Essex, but vii 168 the son of his widow's
subsequent marriage aged 25 at his father's death (16 December 1503), which
seems to push the remarriage back to 1478 or earlier. Leo van de Pas posted
that vol. 14 amended this account to have William dying before 8 February
1480 and his widow remarrying in June 1480.

I don't have a copy of vol. 14 to hand, so I don't know whether there are
corresponding corrections to the Bourchier and Kent accounts.

For what it's worth the new DNB sticks to 1483.

That's all I know, but maybe somebody can add more?

Vol XIV on p. 104 has:

"lines 8-9, delete from 'being' to '1471' and replace by 'before 26
June 1480' [See Essex vol v, p. 138]"

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Chris Phillips

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 12 okt 2005 23:46:56

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
Vol XIV on p. 104 has:

"lines 8-9, delete from 'being' to '1471' and replace by 'before 26
June 1480' [See Essex vol v, p. 138]"


So that's a correction to the Bourchier account, which dates his death
before the date given by vol. 14 (Kent) for his widow's remarriage, but
apparently ignores the limit given by vol. 14 (Kent) for his own death.

And I can't see anything at v 138 about 1480.

Chris Phillips

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 13 okt 2005 00:11:44

In message of 12 Oct, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
Vol XIV on p. 104 has:

"lines 8-9, delete from 'being' to '1471' and replace by 'before 26
June 1480' [See Essex vol v, p. 138]"


So that's a correction to the Bourchier account, which dates his death
before the date given by vol. 14 (Kent) for his widow's remarriage, but
apparently ignores the limit given by vol. 14 (Kent) for his own death.

Gosh this has been a bit tricky to work out after midnight but CP in
XIV, 408 corrects the remarriage date for Elizabeth Widvill from 'in or
after 1483' to ' June 1480, when he was given clothes against his
marriage by Edward IV, 26 June 1480' and refers to note (g) above. I
presume the note (g) is the one on VII, 166.

Further XIV corrects the death of Wm Bourchier from 'after 12 Feb
1482/3' to 'before 8 Feb 1480' and gives cal Fine Rolls, 1476-85, no 517
as a ref.

And I can't see anything at v 138 about 1480.

Nor I. In fact I can't see much improvement on the original Bourchier
account, but my eyes have faded and the small print of the notes is
impossible even with a magnifying glass!

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 okt 2005 03:14:51

In a message dated 10/12/05 3:01:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< Vol XIV on p. 104 has:

"lines 8-9, delete from 'being' to '1471' and replace by 'before 26
June 1480' [See Essex vol v, p. 138]" >>

Which is not very satisfying since they turn and contradict themselves.
I also note that Leo has another date "bef 8 Feb 1480"
Not sure what that is based on but he cites Cahiers and also "Lineage and
Ancestry of Prince Charles" on this person.
See here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP error?

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 okt 2005 03:21:34

In a message dated 10/12/05 2:30:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< CP v 138 (Essex) has him dying in his father's lifetime (therefore before 4
April 1483) but after 12 February 1482/3, citing a commission of the peace.
A footnote adds that he and his father had a pardon 2 July 1482, and says
"The statement that he was killed at the battle of Barnet in 1471 is due to
a misunderstanding of an erroneous remark in Warkworth's Chronicle, p. 17.
(G. W. Watson)." >>

This is made more problematic by
Richard Grey, 3rd Earl of Kent given in CP with a birthyear ca 1478
and son to this remarriage which per the above could not have taken place
before 1482. So it's a jumbled mess looks like.
Will

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