Frobisher and Drax - LONG

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John Higgins

Frobisher and Drax - LONG

Legg inn av John Higgins » 09 okt 2005 22:52:01

In early September John Ravilious posted a very interesting note showing a descent from Hamelin, the illegitimate son of Geoffrey Plantagenet, to the noted Elizabethan navigator Sir Martin Frobisher. The descent goes through, among others, the family of Drax of Woodhall, Yorkshire. For this family John's descent relied on pedigrees of the family published by the Surtees Society and the Harleian Society, but pointed out that at least the pedigree in HSP 94 was in error in its earlier generations. What follows below proposes a correction to John's correction of this pedigree of Drax in HSP 94. (The Frobisher descent is not lost!!)

HSP 94 (as well as 95 and 96) is a collection of Yorkshire pedigrees taken from a variety of previous pedigree collections. The Drax pedigree is cited as from "Brack" which is described in the introduction as follows: "Mr. William Brack, Painter of York, who died 1747, was an Industrious Collector of Arms and Pedigrees, particularly of Yorkshire Familys [sic] (as his father Mr. William Brack of Yorkshire, a Painter, had been before him). Their collections were purchased in Dec. 1782 by Thos. Beckwith of the City of York, Painter & F.A.S. Lond." [end of quote] The Drax pedigree in HSP 94 ends with the note that "this pedigree differs very considerably from that given by Hunter in South Yorkshire, ii, 208".

This is the pertinent part of the Drax pedigree from Hunter's South Yorkshire (2:108), which follows pedigrees from the visitations of 1563/4 and 1575 published in vols. 133 and 146 of the Surtees Society:
1. John Drax; m. Margaret, dau. of Thomas Barley
2. Robert Drax; m. (1) Eleanor, dau. of Robert Rockley
3. Alexander Drax (d. 10 Aug 1501); m. (1) Joan, dau. of Nicholas Wortley
4a. Alexander's 1st son John d. vp having mar. Margaret dau. of Percival Amyas leaving a dau. Isabel who mar. Sir Walter Calverley.
4b. Alexander's 2nd son Nicholas mar. Catherine dau. of Roger Wombwell - no issue
4c. Alexander's 4th son Robert mar. Joan, sister of Sir Henry Wyatt of Kent
5. [Robert's son] Thomas Drax; m. Anne, dau. of Sir John Nevile of Chevet

The Drax pedigree in "Yorkshire Pedigrees" (Harleian Society vol. 94) goes as follows (in the pertinent parts):
1. John Drax; m. Margaret, dau. of Thomas Barley
2. Alexander Drax (d. 10 Aug 1501); m. Joan, dau. of Nicholas Wortley
3a. Alexander's [apparently] 1st son John mar. Margaret dau. of Percival Amyas leaving a dau. Isabel who mar. Sir Walter Calverley.
3b. Alexander's [other] son Robert mar. Elinor, dau. of Robert Rockley
4. [Robert's son] John Drax; m. Beatrice, dau. of Sir Richard Woodrove of Woolley
5. Nicholas Drax; m. Katherine, dau. of Roger Wombwell by his wife Catherine Radcliffe of Ordsall
6. Robert Drax (will dated 1549, proved 1550); m. Katherine, dau. of John Fleming of Sharlston by his wife Mary Leventhorpe
7. Thomas Drax (will proved 1556); m. (her 1st husband) Anne, dau. of Sir John Nevile of Chevet
[Thomas' sister Katherine mar. as her 2nd husband John Frobisher]

The Drax pedigree which John R. shows in his Frobisher descent, based in part on both of the above pedigrees, goes as follows:
1. John Drax; m. Margaret, dau. of Thomas Barley
2. Robert Drax; m. (1) Eleanor, dau. of Robert Rockley
3. Alexander Drax (d. 10 Aug 1501); m. (1) Joan, dau. of Nicholas Wortley
4. John Drax; m. Beatrice, dau. of Sir Richard Woodrove of Woolley
5. Nicholas Drax; m. Katherine, dau. of Roger Wombwell by his wife Catherine Radcliffe of Ordsall
6. Robert Drax (will dated 1549, proved 1550); m. Katherine, dau. of John Fleming of Sharlston by his wife Mary Leventhorpe
7. Thomas Drax; [m. Anne, dau. of Sir John Nevile of Chevet]
[Thomas' sister Katherine mar. as her 2nd husband John Frobisher]

FWIW [not necessarily much] another visitation pedigree, this one in 1585 in Joseph Foster's edition, starts with the following generations:
Robert Drax; mar. Joan, sister of Sir Henry Wyatt of Kent
Thomas Drax; m. (her 1st husband) Anne, dau. of Sir John Nevile of Chevet
[Thomas is not shown here as having a sister who mar. John Frobisher]

In summary the three proposed descents go as follows:
John -> Robert -> Alexander -> Robert -> Thomas [and Katherine]
John -> Alexander -> Robert -> John -> Nicholas -> Robert -> Thomas [and Katherine]
John -> Robert -> Alexander -> John -> Nicholas -> Robert -> Thomas [and Katherine]

I think John R. is correct in saying that the HSP 94 pedigree erred in making the John Drax who mar. Beatrice Woodrove the son of Robert Drax and Elinor Rockley. But the resolution of this error is not necessarily to assume that John was the son of Alexander Drax and Joan Wortley - especially since the pedigree (and others) gives that couple another son John with a different wife. It seems more likely that the HSP 94 pedigree conflated Robert the father of Alexander and Robert the son by incorrectly assigning the wife of Robert the father to Robert the son and then eliminating Robert the father altogether. If this is the case the sequence would be:
John -> Robert -> Alexander -> Robert -> John -> Nicholas -> Robert -> Thomas [and Katherine]

This is a not entirely satisfactory solution because of the other conflicts between the HSP 94 pedigree and the visitation pedigrees. But the HSP 94 pedigree seems to be the best available resource for at least the later generations of this family, and this adjustment would at least resolve part of the problems.

Any comments would be welcomed....

Gjest

Re: Frobisher and Drax - LONG

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 okt 2005 21:56:37

John

Thanks for posting this interesting material. It is perplexing when
sources conflict in this way.

Have you tried A2A or PROCAT in case any references to primary sources
can illuminate? (I am not aware whether the Yorkshire Records Offices
have any of their catalogues on-line.)

MAR

Gjest

Re: Frobisher and Drax - LONG

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 okt 2005 22:05:05

Eg from PROCAT:

1486-1529:

Elizabeth Drax, daughter of John, son of Alexander, son of Robert Drax.
v. Nicholas Drax and Alexander Drax.: The manors of Woodhall and
Collome, the advowson of the church of Derfeld, and lands in Grisbroke,
Derfeld, Wombewell, Houghton, and Frikeley.: York. [C1/197/48]

Walter Calverley and Isabel, his wife, daughter of John, son of
Alexander, son of Robert Drax. v. Sir Thomas Worteley, knight, Nicholas
Drax, and Roger Wombewell.: Lands in Darfield, Wedhall, and Collom.:
York. [C1/ 192/90]

1515-1518:

Thomas Drax, son and heir of Robert Drax. v. Thomas Drax, clerk.:
Detention of deeds relating to the manor of Woodhall, advowson of
Darfield, and lands there and in Worsbrough, Tickhill, Stanshaw,
Bagley, and Wadworth.: York. [C1/ 404/21]

1532-1538:

John Nevyll, knight. v. Thomas Drax, clerk.: Lands in Wombwell, Berfyld
(Darfield ?) and elsewhere comprised in the marriage settlement of Anne
daughter of plaintiff with Thomas son and heir of Robert Drax.: York.
[C1/ 706/29]

1386-1486:

John Drax and Margaret his wife. v. John Bosvyle, of Erdesley.: Manor
of Wodessom and other lands of which the said Margaret was co-heiress
with Marion wife of the said John Bosvyle, being daughters of John
Barley.: York. [C1/ 4/61]

John Drax, serjeant at arms, one of the King's servants in the
Chancery. v. John Bosville: Failure to make a legal partition of the
manors of Woodhall and Melton on the Hill (Hieghmelton), with all the
lands, &c. in Darfield (Derfeld), Wombwell, Greasborough ? (Grysbrok),
Monk Breton ? (Burton), Gateforth (Gaytfort), Brayton, Selby, and Lund
(Lound), which were of Thomas de Barley and Isabel his wife, parents of
Mary and Margaret, wives of the said John Bosville and John Drax,
excepting the advowson of a moiety of Darfield church, and a tenement
there called Gyels (or Gyles) place. With indenture of partition
annexed.: York. [C1/ 4/193]

Cheers, Michael

John P. Ravilious

Re: Frobisher and Drax - LONG

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 10 okt 2005 22:57:23

Dear John (and Michael, et al.),

Thanks for your proposed correction to my correction. I hope the
end result of the process will provide _the_ correct descent......;)

My solution (in the first 3 generations) evidently agrees with
that given by Hunter, with Robert Drax (not Alexander) the son and heir
of John Drax and his wife Margaret Barley. There is a good
chronological anchor to this configuration, from a case extracted by
Barlow from a case recorded in De Banco rolls, as follows:


' The record in a case at Westminster, 1446, of Will. Bosvyle and
Robert Drax against Will. Mauleverer, Knt., and ors., recites that the
manor of Wodonson was given by Robert Berley, Knt., to his son,
Richard, temp. Edw. III; Richard had a son and heir, Thomas, who in
1392 married Isabel Fitz William, the heiress of Woodhall, who settled
all her lands at Woodhall, Darfield, Wombwell, etc., in trust on her
marriage. Thomas and Isabel Berley had two daughters co-heiresses,
Mary, who married John Bosvyle, and Margaret the wife of John de Drax:
in the proceedings the two sons of these marriages, namely, William
Bosvyle and Robert Drax, claimed recovery of the properties against
Mauleverer and ors., the Trustees, the Mauleverer pedigree showing
marriages in the fourteenth century with both Bosvyle and Berlay. '
[Montague Barlow, Barlow Family Records, p. 16 - cites De Banco Rolls,
No. 741, m. 328; Cal. Pat. Rolls, Hen VI, 1425, Feb. 12]


Clearly, Robert (fl. 1446) precedes the Alexander Drax of Woodhall
recorded as having d. 10 Aug 1501.

I will review what I have in a bit more detail, to see what else I
can add concerning the subsequent generations.

Cheers,

John



"John Higgins" wrote:
In early September John Ravilious posted a very interesting note showing a descent from Hamelin, the illegitimate son of Geoffrey Plantagenet, to the noted Elizabethan navigator Sir Martin Frobisher. The descent goes through, among others, the family of Drax of Woodhall, Yorkshire. For this family John's descent relied on pedigrees of the family published by the Surtees Society and the Harleian Society, but pointed out that at least the pedigree in HSP 94 was in error in its earlier generations. What follows below proposes a correction to John's correction of this pedigree of Drax in HSP 94. (The Frobisher descent is not lost!!)

snip

John Higgins

Re: Frobisher and Drax - LONG

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 okt 2005 03:04:20

I agree that the first three generations of the Drax familyn are as John R.
proposed (and not as they are shown in HSP 94): John -> Robert ->
Alexander. The generations following Alexander are where we have a
problem...

I think I can identify most (but not not all) of the people mentioned in the
Procat extracts that Michael provided, but they don't immediately seem to
shed any light on the later generations. Interesting, however....

I guess we need to keep looking...

----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Frobisher and Drax - LONG


Dear John (and Michael, et al.),

Thanks for your proposed correction to my correction. I hope the
end result of the process will provide _the_ correct descent......;)

My solution (in the first 3 generations) evidently agrees with
that given by Hunter, with Robert Drax (not Alexander) the son and heir
of John Drax and his wife Margaret Barley. There is a good
chronological anchor to this configuration, from a case extracted by
Barlow from a case recorded in De Banco rolls, as follows:


' The record in a case at Westminster, 1446, of Will. Bosvyle and
Robert Drax against Will. Mauleverer, Knt., and ors., recites that the
manor of Wodonson was given by Robert Berley, Knt., to his son,
Richard, temp. Edw. III; Richard had a son and heir, Thomas, who in
1392 married Isabel Fitz William, the heiress of Woodhall, who settled
all her lands at Woodhall, Darfield, Wombwell, etc., in trust on her
marriage. Thomas and Isabel Berley had two daughters co-heiresses,
Mary, who married John Bosvyle, and Margaret the wife of John de Drax:
in the proceedings the two sons of these marriages, namely, William
Bosvyle and Robert Drax, claimed recovery of the properties against
Mauleverer and ors., the Trustees, the Mauleverer pedigree showing
marriages in the fourteenth century with both Bosvyle and Berlay. '
[Montague Barlow, Barlow Family Records, p. 16 - cites De Banco Rolls,
No. 741, m. 328; Cal. Pat. Rolls, Hen VI, 1425, Feb. 12]


Clearly, Robert (fl. 1446) precedes the Alexander Drax of Woodhall
recorded as having d. 10 Aug 1501.

I will review what I have in a bit more detail, to see what else I
can add concerning the subsequent generations.

Cheers,

John



"John Higgins" wrote:
In early September John Ravilious posted a very interesting note showing
a descent from Hamelin, the illegitimate son of Geoffrey Plantagenet, to the

noted Elizabethan navigator Sir Martin Frobisher. The descent goes through,
among others, the family of Drax of Woodhall, Yorkshire. For this family
John's descent relied on pedigrees of the family published by the Surtees
Society and the Harleian Society, but pointed out that at least the pedigree
in HSP 94 was in error in its earlier generations. What follows below
proposes a correction to John's correction of this pedigree of Drax in HSP
94. (The Frobisher descent is not lost!!)
snip

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