Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

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Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 okt 2005 11:30:51

The Visitation of Cambridgeshire 1575-1619 and Burke's Peerage state
that the wife of Sir William St George of Hatley St George (ob. 1472)
was "Katherine, daughter of John Manningham" [Burke's calls him "Sir
John Manningham"].

I have not to date been able fully to identify these Manninghams, but
believe John is probably to be equated with the one of that name who
was Sheriff of Bedfordshire in 1457.

This John Manningham was the son of Thomas Manningham, MP, of Ardesley
and Wrenthorpe, Yorks, and Wrestlingworth, Beds, sometime JP for
Bedfordshire, by Katherine his wife [Roskell's HoP Vol 3 sub
Manningham, pp 678-9].

Can anyone add to this?

MAR

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 okt 2005 16:01:55

PROCAT:

C1/18/37: Thomas Chamber, tailor of London, son of Thomas Chamber of
Huntingdon v. William St George, Knight, Thomas Manyngham, Esquire, and
John Chamber, yeoman, feoffees: messuage and land at Everton, Hunts
[1386-1486]

SC8/30/1452A-B: John Manyngham, knight, late of Old Ford [Stepney,
Middlesex]: petition to the King and Parliament re wrongful indictment,
outlawry, attainder etc, 1475

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sir John Manyngham, apparently the son of Thomas and Katherine, was
clearly caught up in the War of the Roses. He fought at the Battle of
Barnet in 1471, and was presumably attainted thereafter.

His will (PCC PROB 11/11, proved 5 March 1499) is an interesting
document. Largely concerned with bequests for the welfare of his soul,
and the souls of his parents and Edith his [first] wife, he also
remembered the poor of 'Wrastlyngworth' and Bury Hatley. He names his
executor as his [second] wife Isabel, to whom he leaves his personal
estate and a life interest in his real estate, and his overseers as Sir
Reginald Braye and Sir John Shaa, knights. His son William is residual
legatee of his lands. The will is dated 18 August 12 Henry VII [1497]

In a curious codicil, dated 22 April 1498, he adds:

"Item - William Manyngham: whereas in my said testament I have made the
remainder unto him and the heirs of his body, it is my full mind and
last will that the same William have no part or parcel of my moveable
goods, showing these causes wherefor he hath been unto me both young
and old an unnatural and unkind son, conspiring my death: he, with his
mother, together in my great trouble after Barnet Field, when I had
made my peace with King Edward [IV], then they impeached me... which
cost me great goods or (i.e. ere) I could be quiet thereof and which
could ... pass ... out of my mind. Also, he hath scathed me and caused
me to lose in many sundry ways about the sum of £500. Also, he hath
distressed me oftentimes and ill dissumed me by unkind and unnatural
words, and after my many great [?visitations] he hath gaped after my
death with most unkind language... whereby my mind hath been always
greatly vexed".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It would seem that Sir John was probably born before 1420, and must
have been a good age at the time of his death (1499). His second wife
and widow, Isabel, survived him many years; her will was proved PCC 28
May 1521 [PROB 11/20].

His son William must have been of age before 1475.

Finally, it is worth noting that Wrestlingworth, Beds, and Hatley St
George, Cambs, are adjoining villages.

+++++++++++++++

A tentative stemma may be drawn thus:

1. Thomas Manningham, JP, MP; of Yorkshire, and Wrestlingworth, Beds;
born before 1400; died circa 1455

married before March 1418 [Roskell] Katherine, daughter of Katherine
Asplion nee Brown [IPM 15 Henry VI: C139/82/51]; born before 1407
[Roskell]; heiress of Wrestlingworth et al. Issue:

2a. Sir John Manningham, fought at the Battle of Barnet on the
Lancastrian side, 1471; died circa 1499.

married firstly, Edith
married secondly, Isabel, died circa 1521.
Issue (presumably by his first marriage):

3a. William Manningham, of age before 1476; named in his father's will,
1498

3b. Katherine Manningham, married as his second wife Sir William St
George, of Hatley St George, died 1472; had issue, a son, Sir Richard
St George.

2b. (son) [Roskell]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The only other Manningham pedigrees I have located to date are from the
Visitations of Cambridgeshire, and of Kent (1619), which record the
following:

1. Thomas Manningham of Luton. Issue:

2. John Manningham of Swavesey, Cambs & Baldock, Herts; married
Elizabeth Butler. Issue:

3a. Robert Manningham of Fen Ditton, Cambs; married Joan Fisher.
Issue:

4a. John Manningham of East 'Maulden' [Malling], Kent; married Anne
Curle. Issue:

5a. Richard Manningham, aged 11 in 1619
5b. Susan Manningham
5c. Anne Manningham
5d. Elizabeth Manningham
5e. John Manningham, aged 3 in 1619

4b. Thomas Manningham

4c. Alice Manningham married John Gastley

4d. Elizabeth Manningham married John Biggs of Stewkley, Hunts.

Arms: sable, a fress ermine, in chief three griffins' heads erased or;
crest: out of a ducal coronet gules, a talbot's head or, collared of
the first, a line sable attached to the ring of the collar, the end
gathered up into a knot.

These arms are, according to Burke's, quartered by Viscount Dilhorne,
whose ancestor married a Manningham heiress [hence that family's
surname, Manningham-Buller]

MAR

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 okt 2005 00:12:50

I must withdraw my statement above that Sir John Manningham fought at
Barnet in 1471; he may have been referring in his will to the political
fall-out from Henry VI's final fall.

Given that his first wife was named Edith, and he left money to the
poor of Hatley Cokayne in his will, I wonder if she was a Cokayne -
perhaps a granddaughter of John Cokayne and Edith Grey.

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 okt 2005 20:32:03

4a. John Manningham of East 'Maulden' [Malling], Kent; married Anne
Curle. Issue:

5a. Richard Manningham, aged 11 in 1619
5b. Susan Manningham
5c. Anne Manningham
5d. Elizabeth Manningham
5e. John Manningham, aged 3 in 1619

NB This John Manningham is the diarist - see DNB

Sutliff

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Sutliff » 11 okt 2005 20:42:31

Just checking in after being on the east coast for a week. Thanks for
posting this information. This was on my to-do list as Katherine Manningham
was possibly the most obscure of the heiresses who married into the St.
George of Hatley St. George, Cambs. family.

Thanks again.

HS
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1128783714.956124.197770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PROCAT:

C1/18/37: Thomas Chamber, tailor of London, son of Thomas Chamber of
Huntingdon v. William St George, Knight, Thomas Manyngham, Esquire, and
John Chamber, yeoman, feoffees: messuage and land at Everton, Hunts
[1386-1486]

SC8/30/1452A-B: John Manyngham, knight, late of Old Ford [Stepney,
Middlesex]: petition to the King and Parliament re wrongful indictment,
outlawry, attainder etc, 1475

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sir John Manyngham, apparently the son of Thomas and Katherine, was
clearly caught up in the War of the Roses. He fought at the Battle of
Barnet in 1471, and was presumably attainted thereafter.

His will (PCC PROB 11/11, proved 5 March 1499) is an interesting
document. Largely concerned with bequests for the welfare of his soul,
and the souls of his parents and Edith his [first] wife, he also
remembered the poor of 'Wrastlyngworth' and Bury Hatley. He names his
executor as his [second] wife Isabel, to whom he leaves his personal
estate and a life interest in his real estate, and his overseers as Sir
Reginald Braye and Sir John Shaa, knights. His son William is residual
legatee of his lands. The will is dated 18 August 12 Henry VII [1497]

In a curious codicil, dated 22 April 1498, he adds:

"Item - William Manyngham: whereas in my said testament I have made the
remainder unto him and the heirs of his body, it is my full mind and
last will that the same William have no part or parcel of my moveable
goods, showing these causes wherefor he hath been unto me both young
and old an unnatural and unkind son, conspiring my death: he, with his
mother, together in my great trouble after Barnet Field, when I had
made my peace with King Edward [IV], then they impeached me... which
cost me great goods or (i.e. ere) I could be quiet thereof and which
could ... pass ... out of my mind. Also, he hath scathed me and caused
me to lose in many sundry ways about the sum of £500. Also, he hath
distressed me oftentimes and ill dissumed me by unkind and unnatural
words, and after my many great [?visitations] he hath gaped after my
death with most unkind language... whereby my mind hath been always
greatly vexed".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It would seem that Sir John was probably born before 1420, and must
have been a good age at the time of his death (1499). His second wife
and widow, Isabel, survived him many years; her will was proved PCC 28
May 1521 [PROB 11/20].

His son William must have been of age before 1475.

Finally, it is worth noting that Wrestlingworth, Beds, and Hatley St
George, Cambs, are adjoining villages.

+++++++++++++++

A tentative stemma may be drawn thus:

1. Thomas Manningham, JP, MP; of Yorkshire, and Wrestlingworth, Beds;
born before 1400; died circa 1455

married before March 1418 [Roskell] Katherine, daughter of Katherine
Asplion nee Brown [IPM 15 Henry VI: C139/82/51]; born before 1407
[Roskell]; heiress of Wrestlingworth et al. Issue:

2a. Sir John Manningham, fought at the Battle of Barnet on the
Lancastrian side, 1471; died circa 1499.

married firstly, Edith
married secondly, Isabel, died circa 1521.
Issue (presumably by his first marriage):

3a. William Manningham, of age before 1476; named in his father's will,
1498

3b. Katherine Manningham, married as his second wife Sir William St
George, of Hatley St George, died 1472; had issue, a son, Sir Richard
St George.

2b. (son) [Roskell]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The only other Manningham pedigrees I have located to date are from the
Visitations of Cambridgeshire, and of Kent (1619), which record the
following:

1. Thomas Manningham of Luton. Issue:

2. John Manningham of Swavesey, Cambs & Baldock, Herts; married
Elizabeth Butler. Issue:

3a. Robert Manningham of Fen Ditton, Cambs; married Joan Fisher.
Issue:

4a. John Manningham of East 'Maulden' [Malling], Kent; married Anne
Curle. Issue:

5a. Richard Manningham, aged 11 in 1619
5b. Susan Manningham
5c. Anne Manningham
5d. Elizabeth Manningham
5e. John Manningham, aged 3 in 1619

4b. Thomas Manningham

4c. Alice Manningham married John Gastley

4d. Elizabeth Manningham married John Biggs of Stewkley, Hunts.

Arms: sable, a fress ermine, in chief three griffins' heads erased or;
crest: out of a ducal coronet gules, a talbot's head or, collared of
the first, a line sable attached to the ring of the collar, the end
gathered up into a knot.

These arms are, according to Burke's, quartered by Viscount Dilhorne,
whose ancestor married a Manningham heiress [hence that family's
surname, Manningham-Buller]

MAR

Sutliff

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Sutliff » 12 okt 2005 04:04:20

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1128783714.956124.197770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PROCAT:

<snip>
His will (PCC PROB 11/11, proved 5 March 1499) is an interesting
document. Largely concerned with bequests for the welfare of his soul,
and the souls of his parents and Edith his [first] wife, he also
remembered the poor of 'Wrastlyngworth' and Bury Hatley. He names his
executor as his [second] wife Isabel, to whom he leaves his personal
estate and a life interest in his real estate, and his overseers as Sir
Reginald Braye and Sir John Shaa, knights. His son William is residual
legatee of his lands. The will is dated 18 August 12 Henry VII [1497]

<snip>

Have you identified which John Shaa this is above? Edmund Shaa, Mayor of
London d. abt 1487, had 1 s 2d. One of the latter was Katharine Shaa who
married Sir William Browne (1467-1514), also Mayor of London. I wonder if
Katherine Browne's father John might have been related to these Brownes. The
Mayor Brownes are supposed to originate in Oakham, Rutland, but there have
been some curious relationships with the Betchworth Brownes as Adrian
Channing has posted many times over the years.

HS

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 okt 2005 13:44:22

The John Asplion referred to in the extracts kindly quoted by Adrian
appears to be a distinct person from the one of that name married to
Katherine Brown.

He was a clergyman. Fasti. Eccl. Ang. tells us that he had a royal
grant of the Prebendary of Brampton in Lincoln on 31 July 1387, which
he exchanged for the church of Cranfield, Beds, on 29 December 1389.
According to the Patent Rolls, he exchanged Cranfield with John de
Lincoln, King's clerk, for Baldock, Herts on 24 February 1390 but this
appears to have transmuted into an exchange with de Lincoln of
Cranfield for 'Whynbergh' in the diocese of Norwich on 30 June 1390; he
resigned the latter before 21 July in the same year, when John Pygot
the younger, King's clerk, was presented in Asplion's place. He
appears in the Rolls for subsequent years either as a attorney or a
Commissioner.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 okt 2005 21:57:35

Roskell et al say of Thomas Manningham, MP that he "was almost
certainly a Yorkshireman by birth, and although we do not know exactly
how he came into possession of the substantial estate in and around
Wakefield [including Wrenthorpe] which eventually descended to his son
John, some of it, at least, may well have been inherited."

Harl. Soc. Pub. Vol 96 'Yorkshire Pedigrees' contains at p 479 an
unreferenced pedigree of de Wrenthorpe ['Wyrenthorpe'] which leads into
a Manningham pedigree, the latter generations of which will look
familiar to anyone who has followed these posts, viz:

1. Roger de Wyrenthorpe ff 1275; dead by 1278

2. Robert de Wyrenthorpe ff 1278; quitclaimed to son, 1342 (sic)

3. Adam de Wyrenthorpe ff 1342; dead by 1348

4a. Claricia de Wyrenthorpe, daughter and coheir; married Roger del
Clay ff 1362

4b. Elianora de Wyrenthorpe, daughter and coheir, ff 1362; married
Thomas de Manyngham, ff 1375

5. Joseph de Manyngham, of Wrenthorpe, Yorks

6. Thomas de Manyngham; married Katherine [Asplion]

7a. John de Manyngham, of Wrenthorpe; ff 1455

7b. William de Manyngham ff 1454

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At p 344 of Harl. Soc. Pub. 95 (also Yorks Peds) we are told that
"Henry Soothill, a lawyer, purchased the manor of Wrenthorpe from John
and William Manyngham for £300 in 1457".

I should add that I have been unable to source any of the above
statements, or to otherwise confirm any of them.

MAR

Sutliff

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Sutliff » 21 okt 2005 03:24:34

Another excellent and helpful post. Many thanks.

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1129841855.627848.167770@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Roskell et al say of Thomas Manningham, MP that he "was almost
certainly a Yorkshireman by birth, and although we do not know exactly
how he came into possession of the substantial estate in and around
Wakefield [including Wrenthorpe] which eventually descended to his son
John, some of it, at least, may well have been inherited."

Harl. Soc. Pub. Vol 96 'Yorkshire Pedigrees' contains at p 479 an
unreferenced pedigree of de Wrenthorpe ['Wyrenthorpe'] which leads into
a Manningham pedigree, the latter generations of which will look
familiar to anyone who has followed these posts, viz:

1. Roger de Wyrenthorpe ff 1275; dead by 1278

2. Robert de Wyrenthorpe ff 1278; quitclaimed to son, 1342 (sic)

3. Adam de Wyrenthorpe ff 1342; dead by 1348

4a. Claricia de Wyrenthorpe, daughter and coheir; married Roger del
Clay ff 1362

4b. Elianora de Wyrenthorpe, daughter and coheir, ff 1362; married
Thomas de Manyngham, ff 1375

5. Joseph de Manyngham, of Wrenthorpe, Yorks

6. Thomas de Manyngham; married Katherine [Asplion]

7a. John de Manyngham, of Wrenthorpe; ff 1455

7b. William de Manyngham ff 1454

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At p 344 of Harl. Soc. Pub. 95 (also Yorks Peds) we are told that
"Henry Soothill, a lawyer, purchased the manor of Wrenthorpe from John
and William Manyngham for £300 in 1457".

I should add that I have been unable to source any of the above
statements, or to otherwise confirm any of them.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2005 14:08:10

Various documentary references to Sir John Manningham:

A.

28 November 1474: Grant to the King's kinsman Anthony Gray, knight,
Lord of Gray Ruthin [sic], of Wrestlingworth &c &c late of John
Manyngham late of Oldeforde, Middlesex, knight, and in the King's hands
because he was indicted of divers offences against the Crown and
afterwards outlawed at the King's suit at Hertford on 8 April 13 Edward
IV [1473]

(Calendar of Patent Rolls, 14 Edward IV)

*********************

B.

23 March 1475: That the attainder and outlawry of John Manyngham late
of Oldeforde, knight, be annulled, and that after the Annunciation 1475
he may freely enter into all his possessions: assent of the Commons and
of the King [Rolls of Parliament VI 129]

(Calendar of Patent Rolls, ibid)

********************

C.

Commissions of the Peace for Bedfordshire: John Manyngham, 1468, 1469

(Cal. Pat. R., ibid)

********************

D.

John Manyngham, knight: writ 8 April, inquisition 27 April 14 Henry
VII:

Seised of the undermentioned manors and gave them by charter to Thomas
Oxenbrigge, William Cheyne and others, to the use of Isabel his wife
for life, and after his and her decease, to the use of William
Manyngham his son and heir, in tail, and in default to the use of his
own right heirs. He died 21 January last. William Manyngham aged 45
years and more is his son and heir. The said Isabel late his wife is
living.

Bedfordshire: Harfordes manor in the town and fields of Wrastlyngworth,
Potton and Bury Hatley, worth £6, held of the King as of the Duchy of
Lancaster by service of fealty and 8s rent. Combes manor in the town
and fields aforesaid worth £10, held of the King as above by service
of fealty and 5s 1d rent. Shilley manor in the same, worth £4, held
as above by service of fealty and 12d yearly. 20 messuages, 500 acres
of land, 100 acres of meadow, 40s rent and a caucate of land called
Duffhous land in the towns aforesaid, whereof the carucate is worth 4
marks and is held of the fee of Richmond by service of fealty and 15s
rent.

(Cal. IPMs, Henry VII vol. 2, #179, p 121)

**********************

Additionally, I note from the following PROCAT reference that his
father, Thomas Manningham, may also have been a knight:

C1/64/592: 1385-1486

Robert Milthorp v the Sheriffs of London: arrest pending an action of
trespass brought against the complainant by Thomas Manyngham, knight,
who claims to have deposited goods with Elizabeth, late complainant's
wife: London.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 okt 2005 00:26:02

In a message dated 10/22/05 6:15:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 28 November 1474: Grant to the King's kinsman Anthony Gray, knight,
Lord of Gray Ruthin [sic], of Wrestlingworth &c &c >>

How can Anthony Grey be Lord of Ruthin in 1474 ?
From Leo's database we have
Edmund Grey b 1416 d 1490 , 4th Baron Grey of Ruthyn
his grandfather was
Reginald Grey b 1362 d 1440, 3rd Lord Grey of Ruthyn

So who is this 1474 interloper ?
He cannot be the son that Leo's lists to Edmund because that Anthony is
hanging off a marriage that is much too late.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 okt 2005 01:23:02

Dear Will,
Sir Anthony Grey, Kt. was the eldest son of Edmund Grey, 4th
Lord Grey de Ruthin, and 1st Grey Earl of Kent. He predeceased his father
unmarried and leaving no issue (see BXP Grey, Earl of Kent p 252, see also MCA p
381, subject Grey) Edmund was succeeded by his 2nd son George Grey, 5th Lord
Grey de Ruthin and 2nd Earl of Kent)
Anthony was possibly known as Lord Grey de Ruthin as a courtesy title.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Katherine Manningham, wife of Sir William St George

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 okt 2005 23:34:01

In a message dated 10/24/05 5:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

a message dated 10/22/05 6:15:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 28 November 1474: Grant to the King's kinsman Anthony Gray, knight,
Lord of Gray Ruthin [sic], of Wrestlingworth &c &c >>

How can Anthony Grey be Lord of Ruthin in 1474 ?
From Leo's database we have
Edmund Grey b 1416 d 1490 , 4th Baron Grey of Ruthyn
his grandfather was
Reginald Grey b 1362 d 1440, 3rd Lord Grey of Ruthyn

So who is this 1474 interloper ?
He cannot be the son that Leo's lists to Edmund because that Anthony is
hanging off a marriage that is much too late.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson



CP has the following for Anthony, son of Edmund:

[ANTHONY GREY, 1st son and heir apparent. He was knighted in the Tower on
the eve of the Queen's Coronation, Ascension Day, 1465. As Anthony Grey of
Ruthyn, knight. he was named in a commission of array with his father in Bucks,
Beds, co. Cambridge and Northants, 29 October 1469 and 14 February 1469/70,
and was on similar commissions 11 May 1471 and 7 March 1471/2. He was a
justice of the Peace in Beds 1469-76 and in 1479, and in Northants 1469-1476/7,
and 1477 and May 1480. On 3 June 1470 he had a grant of 100 marks yearly from
the customs in Devon and Cornwall. On 3 July 1471 he was present in the
Parliament Chamber at Westminster and swore to accept Edward, Prince of Wales as
heir to the Crown. As Antony Grey knight, lord of Gray Ruthin, the King's
kinsman, he had a grant of Wrestlingworth and other manors 28 April 1474. On 8
May 1475 he was about to go across the seas.
On 13 August 1475 he was a witness of the treaty between Edward IV and Louis
XI near Péronne. He married Joan, sister of Elizabeth, the Queen consort,
daughter, and [in her issue] coheir of Richard [Widevill] 1st EARL RIViRS, by
Jacqueline or Jacquette, DUCHESS OF BEDFORD, daughter of Pierre DE
LUXEMBOURG, COUNT OF SAINT POL, CONVERSANO and BRIENNE. He died s.p. and v.p. between
15 May and 26 June 1480, and was buried in the Abbey of St. Albans: brass.
[CP 7:165-6, 14:408]

Always optimistic--Dave

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