Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

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Clagett, Brice

Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 03 okt 2005 20:55:49

Even if MCA p. 816 is right in saying that Sir Peter de Brewes
married (2) Joan Howard, what is the basis for concluding
that Peter's children were by this alleged second wife rather
than by his known wife, Joan Percy?

On what authority does MCA say that Sir Peter de Brewes
and Joan Howard were married about 1359? According to
Paul Mackenzie, Joan (Percy) Brewes died in 1367/8 and
Peter married Joan Howard (if he married her at all) shortly
thereafter. If that is right, then Peter's children John, whose
wife was born c. 1359, and Beratrix, who was born c. 1366
according to MCA p. 748, must have been by Joan Percy
even if there was a second marriage to Joan Howard.

Doug Thompson

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 04 okt 2005 00:06:17

in article B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BDDAAFC8@ ... dc.cov.com,
"Clagett, Brice" at bclagett@cov.com wrote on 03/10/05 6:55 pm:

Even if MCA p. 816 is right in saying that Sir Peter de Brewes
married (2) Joan Howard, what is the basis for concluding
that Peter's children were by this alleged second wife rather
than by his known wife, Joan Percy?

On what authority does MCA say that Sir Peter de Brewes
and Joan Howard were married about 1359? According to
Paul Mackenzie, Joan (Percy) Brewes died in 1367/8 and
Peter married Joan Howard (if he married her at all) shortly
thereafter. If that is right, then Peter's children John, whose
wife was born c. 1359, and Beratrix, who was born c. 1366
according to MCA p. 748, must have been by Joan Percy
even if there was a second marriage to Joan Howard.


Peter's wife died about 1369. IF he was married twice this could have been
his first OR second wife. We do not know that the wife who died in 1369 was
Joan (Percy). There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.

Doug

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 04 okt 2005 00:29:31

Doug Thompson wrote:

<There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.
<
< Doug

Dear Doug ~

Sounds very much like you already have your mind made up. Is that
correct?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 04 okt 2005 01:37:37

Clagett, Brice wrote:
Even if MCA p. 816 is right in saying that Sir Peter de Brewes
married (2) Joan Howard, what is the basis for concluding
that Peter's children were by this alleged second wife rather
than by his known wife, Joan Percy?

On what authority does MCA say that Sir Peter de Brewes
and Joan Howard were married about 1359? According to
Paul Mackenzie, Joan (Percy) Brewes died in 1367/8 and
Peter married Joan Howard (if he married her at all) shortly
thereafter. If that is right, then Peter's children John, whose
wife was born c. 1359, and Beratrix, who was born c. 1366
according to MCA p. 748, must have been by Joan Percy
even if there was a second marriage to Joan Howard.


That is one difficulty with my proposal and I had left the question open
who was the mother of Beatrix.

It is not possible to put a definite date to the death of Joan de Brewes
(Percy). We only know that a Joan de Brewes died sometime in or just
prior to 29 Sept-29 Sept 1369/70(1). Whether this was Joan Percy or
Joan Howard, is impossible to say. Alice Howard enfeoffed her estates
to Peter de Brewes, knight and others on the 7th July 1369 (2). It was
her son Robert Howard and Peter de Brewes' son John who were involved in
the kidnapping of Margery Nerford, who was suing for divorce from John
de Brewes during 1378(3). The last specific mention I can find to Joan
Percy aka de Brewes is in the I.P.M. held on 11 Feb 1348/9 of her mother
Joan daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot.(4.).

As to the manor of Whiteford, Peter de Brewes and Joan Percy came into
possession of Whiteford prior to the death of her mother. Peter de
Brewes and his wife Joan (Percy) granted the manor to the king in
1344(6) who subsequently granted it back to them and their heirs in
1346 (7). According to a Patent (8) in 1355, Peter and Joan had "lately"
granted the manor to the king who then granted the manor to Peter de
Brewes and Robert Duanz, chaplain who granted it to Sir Hugh de
Courtenay (except for one acre) (9). In May 1357 Peter de Brewes was
granted a licence for the alienation in mortmain for the acre to a
chaplain to celebrate divine services for the good estate of Peter and
the souls of the ancestors of Peter [no mention of Joan]. It seems
Joan Brewes (Percy) dropped out of the scene from 1355, there are
no more specific references to her. However, In 1357, the king granted
Wiston to Peter de Brewes and his wife Joan, but no mention of last
name. (5.)

Further research needs to be undertaken on this matter.



(1) Sussex Arch. Collections Vol 54:156. The Wiston Account Roll for
Michaelmas to Michaelmas 1369/70 lists expenses incurred for the burial
of the lady.
(2) CIPM 13:267
(3) CP 1377-1381:260,299,301,307,308,311,309,374
CC 1377-1381 :222,223
(4) Complete Peerage - Mautravers.
(5) CP 1354-1358:651
(6) CF 1337-1347:378,379,412,416,; CC 1343-1346:450,451; CC
1343-1346:476; CIM 1345:486,487
(7) CP 1345-1348:124,168
(8) CP 1354-1358:271,274,
(9) CP 466,460; CC 1354-1360:325,326.



Kind Regards

Paul

Doug Thompson

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 04 okt 2005 20:55:45

in article 1128382171.798550.320960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Douglas
Richardson royalancestry@msn.com at royalancestry@msn.com wrote on 04/10/05
12:29 am:

Doug Thompson wrote:

There can be no firm identification of Beatrix's mother.

Doug

Dear Doug ~

Sounds very much like you already have your mind made up. Is that
correct?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

I really don't understand your comment Douglas. Surely my statement says
just the opposite! Her mother COULD be Joan Percy, she COULD be the surmised
Joan Howard, or she COULD be another unknown wife of Peter Brewes that is
completely undocumented! We have no firm identification for the mother. The
only thing my mind is made up about is the openness of the question. At the
slightest sign of evidence, my view will change.

Doug

Doug Thompson

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 04 okt 2005 21:00:07

in article 4341ced2$0$19758$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
Paul Mackenzie at paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au wrote on 04/10/05 1:37 am:

We only know that a Joan de Brewes died sometime in or just
prior to 29 Sept-29 Sept 1369/70(1). Whether this was Joan Percy or
Joan Howard, is impossible to say.

A slight correction, Paul. We only know that a wife of Peter de Brewes died
then. Nowhere is she given a name Joan at this time. If she's not Joan de
Percy, his known wife, she could be anybody.

Doug

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 04 okt 2005 23:46:35

Doug Thompson wrote:
in article 4341ced2$0$19758$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
Paul Mackenzie at paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au wrote on 04/10/05 1:37 am:


We only know that a Joan de Brewes died sometime in or just
prior to 29 Sept-29 Sept 1369/70(1). Whether this was Joan Percy or
Joan Howard, is impossible to say.


A slight correction, Paul. We only know that a wife of Peter de Brewes died
then. Nowhere is she given a name Joan at this time. If she's not Joan de
Percy, his known wife, she could be anybody.

Doug

Yep, you are correct.


Paul.

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