Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Chris Phillips

Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 okt 2005 23:07:56

One question that's been discussed in the past, which is obliquely related
to the problem of the several Gundreds, is the marriage of Agnes, daughter
of Roger, Earl of Warwick, (d. 1153) to Geoffrey de Clinton [Complete
Peerage volume 12, part 2, page 362, note d].

CP refers to Pipe Roll, 31 Hen. I, p. 105 (albeit preceded by "cf"), which
if it implied the marriage took place by 1130 would create chronological
difficulties, as the parents of Earl Roger's known wife, Gundred, daughter
of William de Warenne and Elizabeth of Vermandois, were not married until
after June 1118.

In the new DNB, the marriage of Agnes to Geoffrey de Clinton is mentioned in
two articles by David Crouch, on Clinton, Geoffrey of (d. c.1133) and Roger,
second earl of Warwick (d. 1153).

In the former, Crouch says that the younger Geoffrey de Clinton was a minor
at his father's death in 1133, and that "he ran into trouble at some time in
1137 or 1138, when the earl of Warwick attempted to reclaim the lands
extorted from him by Geoffrey's father. The problem was eventually solved by
a marriage treaty, by which Geoffrey married Agnes, the earl's young
daughter, and received his lands back at preferential terms, with a
concession of the hereditary possession of the shrievalty of Warwick."

In the latter, the conflict is dated only to after the death of Henry I in
1135:
"Roger mobilized his followers to attack the Clintons and their imported
tenants. There was a siege of Kenilworth Castle; Kenilworth Priory's lands
were pillaged by the earl's men; but the Clinton party apparently fought
back hard enough for the king to feel called upon to intervene. The written
peace treaty survives. The young Geoffrey of Clinton made a formal
submission to the earl and accepted his daughter, still only an infant, in
marriage."

Crouch dates Earl Roger's marriage to Gundred to "before 1135", so the
marriage contract would have to be understood to refer to a small child,
under the legal age for either marriage or betrothal. I cannot see any
mention in either article about the troublesome description of Agnes's
husband as 'Camerario consilio Regis' discussed here previously, when the
son is not known to have been a royal chamberlain. Certainly Crouch's
article on Geoffrey senior doesn't mention that his son was chamberlain.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 02 okt 2005 02:35:12

Dear Chris ~

I believe it was Geoffrey de Clinton the younger who married Agnes, the
daughter of Roger, Earl of Warwick. Is that your understanding?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips wrote:
One question that's been discussed in the past, which is obliquely related
to the problem of the several Gundreds, is the marriage of Agnes, daughter
of Roger, Earl of Warwick, (d. 1153) to Geoffrey de Clinton [Complete
Peerage volume 12, part 2, page 362, note d].

CP refers to Pipe Roll, 31 Hen. I, p. 105 (albeit preceded by "cf"), which
if it implied the marriage took place by 1130 would create chronological
difficulties, as the parents of Earl Roger's known wife, Gundred, daughter
of William de Warenne and Elizabeth of Vermandois, were not married until
after June 1118.

In the new DNB, the marriage of Agnes to Geoffrey de Clinton is mentioned in
two articles by David Crouch, on Clinton, Geoffrey of (d. c.1133) and Roger,
second earl of Warwick (d. 1153).

In the former, Crouch says that the younger Geoffrey de Clinton was a minor
at his father's death in 1133, and that "he ran into trouble at some time in
1137 or 1138, when the earl of Warwick attempted to reclaim the lands
extorted from him by Geoffrey's father. The problem was eventually solved by
a marriage treaty, by which Geoffrey married Agnes, the earl's young
daughter, and received his lands back at preferential terms, with a
concession of the hereditary possession of the shrievalty of Warwick."

In the latter, the conflict is dated only to after the death of Henry I in
1135:
"Roger mobilized his followers to attack the Clintons and their imported
tenants. There was a siege of Kenilworth Castle; Kenilworth Priory's lands
were pillaged by the earl's men; but the Clinton party apparently fought
back hard enough for the king to feel called upon to intervene. The written
peace treaty survives. The young Geoffrey of Clinton made a formal
submission to the earl and accepted his daughter, still only an infant, in
marriage."

Crouch dates Earl Roger's marriage to Gundred to "before 1135", so the
marriage contract would have to be understood to refer to a small child,
under the legal age for either marriage or betrothal. I cannot see any
mention in either article about the troublesome description of Agnes's
husband as 'Camerario consilio Regis' discussed here previously, when the
son is not known to have been a royal chamberlain. Certainly Crouch's
article on Geoffrey senior doesn't mention that his son was chamberlain.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 02 okt 2005 10:16:34

Douglas Richardson wrote:
I believe it was Geoffrey de Clinton the younger who married Agnes, the
daughter of Roger, Earl of Warwick. Is that your understanding?

That's certainly what Crouch says in the ODNB.

The puzzling thing is that in the previous discussion here, people said that
the marriage treaty was said to describe Agnes's intended husband as
'Camerario consilio Regis'. It would be nice to have that point clarified.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 24 okt 2005 23:52:39

Will Johnson wrote:
Are you suggesting Agnes was already married 1138/9 ?
If so this would push back the possible birthrange for Gundred, provided
that
Gundred was indeed her mother.


See my post of 22nd - Crouch suggests a date of November 1137 x December
1138 for the charter of Earl Roger giving Agnes to Geoffrey in marriage.

We know Gundred couldn't have been born before the death of her mother's
previous husband in 1118. So either Agnes must have been a small child (not
more than about 4 or 5) at the time of the marriage contract, or else she
must have been a daughter of a previous wife of Earl Roger.

I note that Robert de Torigny's continuation of William de Jumieges says
that Roger and Gundred had two daughters (I'm working from a French
translation on Gallica, and haven't seen the original). If the received
interpretation of William de Lancaster's charter is correct, Gundred had two
daughters Gundred (who married Hugh, Earl of Norfolk) and Margaret. So for
what that's worth it might suggest Agnes had a different mother (unless
Margaret, having presumably died unmarried, wasn't counted by Robert de T).

It might help if Geoffrey's charters for Bretford could be dated, as they
are witnessed by his son Henry. One of the versions has quite a lot of
witnesses, but none of them means anything to me. Afterwards (perhaps quite
soon afterwards) the land was given to Kenilworth (this is the charter
witnessed by Richard, abbot of Leicester). Perhaps something more could be
found out about this from the Kenilworth end. Dugdale's account of Bretford
is available online at the Monastic Matrix website:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 okt 2005 00:01:01

In a message dated 10/24/05 12:28:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk writes:

<< of the Monasticon (Vol 4) there are two charters by Geoffrey junior, which
begin : "In nomine sanctae Trinitatis, ego Gaufridus camerarius de Clintona
etc" This seems quite clear. Both charters are witnessed by "Agnete uxore mea"
and "filio meo Henrico", which confirms that the author is the right
Geoffrey. >>

Can these charters be dated?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 okt 2005 00:03:02

In a message dated 10/24/05 5:35:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< The charters to Bretfort don't suggest any obvious dates, but a subsequent
charter of Geoffrey, also printed in the Monasticon, is witnessed by
Richard, abbot of Leicester (1143 or 1144-1167-8). If Agnes was the daughter
of Countess Gundred, she could have been only a small child in 1138, >>

Are you suggesting Agnes was already married 1138/9 ?
If so this would push back the possible birthrange for Gundred, provided that
Gundred was indeed her mother.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Agnes, wife of Geoffrey de Clinton

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 okt 2005 04:29:02

In a message dated 10/24/05 4:05:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< See my post of 22nd - Crouch suggests a date of November 1137 x December
1138 for the charter of Earl Roger giving Agnes to Geoffrey in marriage.

We know Gundred couldn't have been born before the death of her mother's
previous husband in 1118. So either Agnes must have been a small child (not
more than about 4 or 5) at the time of the marriage contract, or else she
must have been a daughter of a previous wife of Earl Roger. >>

Is there knowledge about the order of the children of Roger and Gundred?
That is, could Agnes be the eldest? Her mother Gundred could not have been
born before 1119 since her mother married AFT 5 Jun 1118 to William of Warenne,
2nd Earl of Surrey

I note that three of their children must have been born rather rapidly after
that, in particular: Ada had at least one child by Mar 1142, William had a
child by 1145 and Isabel died in 1131.

Will Johnson

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»