On paternity,marriages,consanquity, base-born,suspicions,etc

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butlergrt

On paternity,marriages,consanquity, base-born,suspicions,etc

Legg inn av butlergrt » 01 okt 2005 16:08:15

Good Morning,
To study family history, only DNA tests would reveal true paternity, so
sleuthing is the only other option, which it appears that all of us are
doing by questioning records and gathering supportive evidence, even at
best, often confusing and erroneus and therefor circumstantial, but used
never-the-less.
To be high-browed and sanctimonius on one hand regarding some individuals
but not others is totally ludicrous and would smack of rank
ameteurishness.
Let us take the 2nd and 3rd E of Ormonde, here we have James the 2nd E.
Ormonde,and two of his children, Eleanor, who marries Gerald Fitzmaurice
Fitzgerald(E. of Desmond) and has a daughter K/Catherine. We have her
brother, James the 3rd E. Ormonde, who marries Anne de Welles. Now you can
read in the "Annals of Four Masters", the story of how James and his
niece, have four children and reading between the lines, she poisons Anne,
James' wife while James goes to meet her father, his brother-in-law, and
he falls off his horse and drowns in the water, read between the lines-he
was killed by James and his entourage when he challenged James for getting
his daughter pregnant. James, 3rd E. Ormonde's oldest son with Catherine,
James Gallda(means The Foreigner) and his brothers recieve vast estates,
titles and money from their father, Whilst you may not take the "Annals of
Four Masters" seriously, you can read the actual accounts and letters in
"The Calander of Ormonde Deeds", directly. Volume II.
Let us go to this Q. Elizabeth,-Bacon, Shakespeare, Butler item.
Thomas Butler,7th E. Ormonde's daughter married William Boleyn, who had
Thomas who married Elizabeth Howard(you all know that family from what
I've read), who had Ann who married Henry VIII, who had Q. Elizabeth.
Thomas' cousin, Piers the 8th E. Ormondes grandson, Thomas the 10th E.
Ormonde was sent to court as a child and he and Elizabeth grew up together
being not only close friends, but cousins as well. Letters and records of
Thomas and Elizabeth are well documented and Thomas had a palace built for
her in Ireland at Carrick-on-the Suir, but she never came of course.
It is also well recorded of the bitter jealousy between Lore Seymour and
Thomas Butler over the attentions of Elizabeth. Elizabeth also is recorded
as going into seclusion when she was sick(morning sickness?) and would
allow no Drs. to see her(she is quoted as saying that nobody but God would
see her, or to that effect), yet at this precise time, Piers Fitzthomas
Butler, natural son of Thomas,10th E. Ormonde shows up. He is given vast
estates and titles and his son Edmund, becomes 1st viscount Galmoy. Sure
all from a natural-baseborn start. From the evidence I
have seen, I would say that Shakespeare is more in line with de Vere of
Oxford, yet he too is connected to the Butlers of Ormonde and the Butlers
of Essex. Once again Bacon is also connected to the Butlers,
Stanleys,Drurys and the Boylens thru the Calthropes, sound familiar?
Elizabeth Calthorpe, dau of Sir Phillip Calthorpe, her mother was a Boylen
who was Aunt to Q. Elizabeth. Keeping in mind that Elizabeth Drury married
Sir Phillip Butler whose great grandson Robert Buttler married Sir Dru
Drurys dau. Francis, who was godchild to Q. Elizabeth. Seems rather close
in the family to me!!Again!!
It was also Sir Dru Drury who was also in charge of Q. Marys' confinement
and execution and later allegedly given a portrait by Elizabeth of Mary.
My own direct line, Deacon Richard Boteler had a sister who married a
Winter and a sister who married a West, the only recorded Butler of that
time who married a Winter was Ann Butler who married Thomas Winter who was
the son of the illig. son of Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII's advisor and
discarded when he married Ann Boleyn(actually he died).
Some research has shown that Sir Francis Bacon may well have been
pawned off to the Botelers as well from early financial records, living
accomodations etc.
If one looks close enough, all the Butlers of England and Ireland are
related directly or thru marriage thru the female line regardless of what
is said, follow the records, look at the shields and crests and the LAND
records, a different picture will emerge.
I view the Butlers (as you do not hear or see of them frequently) as "They
were the repositors and keepers of dark secrets and connections". Keep in
mind all the humans of that period, from base-born to Kings and Queens,
they all were born and they all died and their basic wants and needs were
the same then as it is today!!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Kristie Thompson

Re: On paternity,marriages,consanquity, base-born,suspicions

Legg inn av Kristie Thompson » 01 okt 2005 18:18:02

In regard to your statement , "To be high-browed and sanctimonious on one
hand regarding some individuals but not others is totally ludicrous and
would smack of rank amateurishness."
Fortunately for those people who study royalty, copious records were kept.
To place royalty in the same boat as someone who was a nobleman is comparing
apples and oranges. Their lives did not come under the same scrutiny as a
royal personage. It is not ludicrous to search the records and expect to
see proof. That is a mark of an historian. I concede that genealogy is a
bit different than being an historian, but we should be careful not to go
too far off base with our suppositions.

On another note, I, too, am a descendant of the Butlers and would love to
discuss your statement that all the Butlers are related. I have had trouble
researching that line. Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: On paternity,marriages,consanquity, base-born,suspicions,etc.


Good Morning,
To study family history, only DNA tests would reveal true paternity, so
sleuthing is the only other option, which it appears that all of us are
doing by questioning records and gathering supportive evidence, even at
best, often confusing and erroneus and therefor circumstantial, but used
never-the-less.
To be high-browed and sanctimonius on one hand regarding some individuals
but not others is totally ludicrous and would smack of rank
ameteurishness.
Let us take the 2nd and 3rd E of Ormonde, here we have James the 2nd E.
Ormonde,and two of his children, Eleanor, who marries Gerald Fitzmaurice
Fitzgerald(E. of Desmond) and has a daughter K/Catherine. We have her
brother, James the 3rd E. Ormonde, who marries Anne de Welles. Now you can
read in the "Annals of Four Masters", the story of how James and his
niece, have four children and reading between the lines, she poisons Anne,
James' wife while James goes to meet her father, his brother-in-law, and
he falls off his horse and drowns in the water, read between the lines-he
was killed by James and his entourage when he challenged James for getting
his daughter pregnant. James, 3rd E. Ormonde's oldest son with Catherine,
James Gallda(means The Foreigner) and his brothers recieve vast estates,
titles and money from their father, Whilst you may not take the "Annals of
Four Masters" seriously, you can read the actual accounts and letters in
"The Calander of Ormonde Deeds", directly. Volume II.
Let us go to this Q. Elizabeth,-Bacon, Shakespeare, Butler item.
Thomas Butler,7th E. Ormonde's daughter married William Boleyn, who had
Thomas who married Elizabeth Howard(you all know that family from what
I've read), who had Ann who married Henry VIII, who had Q. Elizabeth.
Thomas' cousin, Piers the 8th E. Ormondes grandson, Thomas the 10th E.
Ormonde was sent to court as a child and he and Elizabeth grew up together
being not only close friends, but cousins as well. Letters and records of
Thomas and Elizabeth are well documented and Thomas had a palace built for
her in Ireland at Carrick-on-the Suir, but she never came of course.
It is also well recorded of the bitter jealousy between Lore Seymour and
Thomas Butler over the attentions of Elizabeth. Elizabeth also is recorded
as going into seclusion when she was sick(morning sickness?) and would
allow no Drs. to see her(she is quoted as saying that nobody but God would
see her, or to that effect), yet at this precise time, Piers Fitzthomas
Butler, natural son of Thomas,10th E. Ormonde shows up. He is given vast
estates and titles and his son Edmund, becomes 1st viscount Galmoy. Sure
all from a natural-baseborn start. From the evidence I
have seen, I would say that Shakespeare is more in line with de Vere of
Oxford, yet he too is connected to the Butlers of Ormonde and the Butlers
of Essex. Once again Bacon is also connected to the Butlers,
Stanleys,Drurys and the Boylens thru the Calthropes, sound familiar?
Elizabeth Calthorpe, dau of Sir Phillip Calthorpe, her mother was a Boylen
who was Aunt to Q. Elizabeth. Keeping in mind that Elizabeth Drury married
Sir Phillip Butler whose great grandson Robert Buttler married Sir Dru
Drurys dau. Francis, who was godchild to Q. Elizabeth. Seems rather close
in the family to me!!Again!!
It was also Sir Dru Drury who was also in charge of Q. Marys' confinement
and execution and later allegedly given a portrait by Elizabeth of Mary.
My own direct line, Deacon Richard Boteler had a sister who married a
Winter and a sister who married a West, the only recorded Butler of that
time who married a Winter was Ann Butler who married Thomas Winter who was
the son of the illig. son of Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII's advisor and
discarded when he married Ann Boleyn(actually he died).
Some research has shown that Sir Francis Bacon may well have been
pawned off to the Botelers as well from early financial records, living
accomodations etc.
If one looks close enough, all the Butlers of England and Ireland are
related directly or thru marriage thru the female line regardless of what
is said, follow the records, look at the shields and crests and the LAND
records, a different picture will emerge.
I view the Butlers (as you do not hear or see of them frequently) as "They
were the repositors and keepers of dark secrets and connections". Keep in
mind all the humans of that period, from base-born to Kings and Queens,
they all were born and they all died and their basic wants and needs were
the same then as it is today!!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

______________________________

Gjest

Re: On paternity,marriages,consanquity, base-born,suspicions

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 18:26:03

In a message dated 10/1/2005 9:17:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
girlvol@earthlink.net writes:

It is not ludicrous to search the records and expect to
see proof. That is a mark of an historian. I concede that genealogy is a
bit different than being an historian, but we should be careful not to go
too far off base with our suppositions.


But on the other hand, every family, then and now, has skeletons. To
suppose that these are obvious and recorded would thwart the very nature of the
issue that they should be kept secret. How many people knew that Eleanor
Roosevelt had a love affair with a woman at the time? How many know it today?

How many people knew that Elizabeth had a crazy sister or aunt or whatever
she is, at the time? And how many know it today?

A historian is not one who only looks at the recorded facts, but also one
who can read between the lines. You see to only want to view things in the
pristine light they were originally presented in, and not take into account that
something make be deliberately missing.
Will Johnson

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