Saturday, 1 October, 2005
Hello All,
Past discussions concerning the Thornhills of Thornhill have
dealt with many issues (marriages, parentage of same, & c.) but one
particular item in the pedigrees seems not to work well. This is
the indicated descent from Sir Richard de Thornhill and his
(sole ?) wife, shown in Foster's as
' Sir Richard Thornhill, of Thornhill, Knt., ob. 1287.
= Matilda, daughter of Thomas de Fixby. ' [1]
That Sir Richard was married to a lady named Maud (Matilda in
Latin) is not in dispute; his widow was so named [2]. However, all
evidence actually points to his wife (or at least the wife who was
the mother of his known issue) was a sister of Sir Brian fitz Alan
of Bedale (d. 1306):
1. The association of Sir John de Thornhill, the eldest son,
with Bedale [3].
2. The close association esp. of Brian de Thornhill, most
certainly his presentation as rector of Bedale ca. 1301.
While not an absolute by any means, one of the 'perks'
of holding the advowson of a church allowed a lord to
use same for the installation of a near relation already
in the religious life. Brian de Thornhill was installed
as rector of Bedale in 1301 or before, so we know his
selection was in fact made by Sir Brian fitz Alan himself.
3. The names of several children of Sir Richard reflect a
FitzAlan source: Henry, from Henry of Ravensworth (maternal
grandfather of Sir Brian), Agnes (name of Sir Brian's mother
of the Ravensworth family) and in particular that of Brian
de Thornhill, rector of Bedale (see conjectured pedigree
below). It would appear, given the relatively rare
appearance of the name Brian prior to say 1300, that Brian
de Thornhill was likely godson (and nephew) to Sir Brian
fitz Alan.
What the basis was for identifying Maud, wife of Sir Richard de
Thornhill as Maud de Fixby I have not uncovered to date. It is
interesting that (as far as I've found) there were no Fixby lands
found in Thornhill hands prior to their descent by marriage to the
cadet Thornhills of Fixby (in later generations). It does appear,
whether or not such a marriage occurred, that a FitzAlan marriage
was the source of the issue of Sir Richard de Thornhill.
This conjecture requires further study, especially as the
evidence for same (esp. founded on onomastics) is thin and
undocumented. Anyone relevant comment, criticism or additional
documentation is most welcome.
Cheers,
John*
NOTES (to post):
[1] "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by
Joseph Foster (London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 - 2 Vols.),
pedigree of Thornhill, of Fixby and Riddlesworth.
[2] From Access to Archives, http://www.a2a.org.uk
A. record of grant (undated):
' Grant: Thomas Worre of Thornhill to Lord Richard of Thornhill and
Matilda his wife house, toft and croft in Thornhill. ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], DD/SR/209/114
' Lady Maud de Thornehill ', had dower of a third part of a
messuage and of a bovate of land in 'Akenschag' , acknowledged,
undated [est. c 1300]
' Acknowledgement by John son of Ric de Gomersal that he is bound
to John de Thornehill for an annual rent of 6s 8d of sterling for
two parts of a messuage and of a bovate in Akenschag', formerly
leased but now sold to the said John son of Ric, by John de
Thornehill - the third part, which is the dower of lady Maud de
Thornehill during her life, to pass to the said John son of Ric
after her death ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of
Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205] ,
DD/SR/36/13
[3] From Access to Archives, http://www.a2a.org.uk
grant dated 09 Mar 1303/04:
' Grant for an annual rent of 20s by Wm de Pothou to John de
Thornhill of all his lands, rents etc in Tharelby by Halton and
Burton by Burtonstayel in Lindesay. Dated at Bedal uxta Lemyngbrig
[Bedale by Leeming Bridge]. Seal in natural wax on tag ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/19
====================================================
CONJECTURED relationship, FitzAlan of Bedale and Thornhill of
Thornhill
1 Alan FitzBrian
----------------------------------------
Death: bef May 1267
Father: Brian FitzAlan (->1242)
Mother: Alice Hansard
of Bedale, co. Yorks.
charter for a [ Tues] market, granted 27 May 1251, by King Henry III
to Alan son of Brian (CChR, 1226-57, p. 361). To be held at the
manor.' [1]
Spouse: Agnes, dau. of Henry of Ravensworth
Children: Maud [CONJECTURED]
Sir Brian (-<1306)
Theobald
Margery
1.1 [ CONJECTURED] Maud
----------------------------------------
possibly a daughter of Alan fitz Brian of Bedale.
' Matilda, daughter of Thomas de Fixby. ' [pedigree of Thornhill,
of Fixby and Riddlesworth: Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees[2]]
record of grant (undated):
' Grant: Thomas Worre of Thornhill to Lord Richard of Thornhill and
Matilda his wife house, toft and croft in Thornhill. ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], DD/SR/209/114[3]
' Lady Maud de Thornehill ', had dower of a third part of a messuage
and of a bovate of land in 'Akenschag' , acknowledged, undated
[est. c 1300]
' Acknowledgement by John son of Ric de Gomersal that he is bound
to John de Thornehill for an annual rent of 6s 8d of sterling for
two parts of a messuage and of a bovate in Akenschag', formerly
leased but now sold to the said John son of Ric, by John de
Thornehill - the third part, which is the dower of lady Maud de
Thornehill during her life, to pass to the said John son of Ric
after her death ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of
Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205] ,
DD/SR/36/13[3]
Spouse: Sir Richard de Thornhill
Death: 1287[2]
Father: Sir John de Thornhill (-<1260)
Mother: Olivia de la Mare
Children: Sir John (-<1322)
Henry
Brian
Peter
Agnes
1.1.1 Sir John de Thornhill[4]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 9 Jul 1322[3]
of Thornhill and Hunsworth, co. Yorks.
' Sir John Thornhill, of Thornhill, 35 K. Ed. I, held lands in
Thornhill, Tong, Ovenden, Hundesworth, and Bierley (see Kirbys
inquest), and was dead in 15 Ed. 2. He granted to the prior and
convent of Lewes, in Sussex, and their successors, to attach their
mill dam of Heptonstall. = Beatrice, (?) daughter of Sir William
Talboner. ' [pedigree of Thornhill, of Fixby and Riddlesworth:
Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees[2]]
statements dated 14 Aug 1290:
' Renunciation and disclaimers by Nicholas de Leycestr' of his
right and interest in the advowson and presentation of Thornhill
church in favour of John de Thornhyll. Three small seals on tongues'
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/11[3]
' John de Thornhill ', witness (together with Sir William FitzWilliam
FitzThomas, Sir Hugh de Eland, Sir John de Sotehill and others) to
grant by Thomas de Horbyri, brother and heir of John of Horbyri to
Sir Nicholas de Wortelay of the manor of Shetelingthon
[Shitlington], ca. 1300 [A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wharncliffe
Muniments [Wh M/D/01 - Wh M/P/13], Wh M/D/627[3]
quitclaim, dated 1301 :
' Quitclaim by Adam le Turner de Stansfeld' (Stansfield, Yk) in
favour of John de Thornhill' of his lordship [dominium] over the
waste of Stansfeld (saving housebote, haybote, turbary etc) '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/26/31[3]
' Friday before the Annunciation (March 23), 1301-2. Agreement
between John de Thornill and William de Methelay for the marriage
of Henry son of the said William and Cecily daughter of the said
John, William to enfeoff Henry and Cecily in tail of all his lands
and rent in Methelay. John to pay William 10 li. Witnesses, Sir
Brian de Thornill, rector of Bedal, Master William de Burgo, rector
of Thornill, Sir Robert de Reupe, chaplain, Michael de Bilham, John
de Estoft, clerk. Thornhill. ' [Yorks. Deeds II:118-9, No. 323[5]]
grant dated 09 Mar 1303/04:
' Grant for an annual rent of 20s by Wm de Pothou to John de
Thornhill of all his lands, rents etc in Tharelby by Halton and
Burton by Burtonstayel in Lindesay. Dated at Bedal uxta Lemyngbrig
[Bedale by Leeming Bridge]. Seal in natural wax on tag '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/19[3]
grant dated 32 Ed I [1303-04]:
' Grant by Richard Oysel to John son of Sir Richard de Thornhill'
of 5 acres of land and 5 acres of meadow in the field of Flikesburg
(Flixborough, Li) ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of
Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205]
grant dated 29 Jun 1305:
' Grant by Thos de Langefeld to John de Thornhill and Sir Brian de
Thornhill, rector of Bedale, of two parts of the manor of Thornhill
and the reversion of the third part, (which is held as dower by Eliz
relict of Wm de Langefeld), with service of all freemen and villeins
and all other appurtenances within and without the town of
Thornhill. Seal in natural wax on tag ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire
Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/20[3]
grant dated St Martin's Day, 1305 [12 Nov 1305]:
' Grant under conditions of a messuage and six acres by John de
Thornehill to William son of Ellis de Waddisw' and Agnes his wife'
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers, DD/SR/27/1/7b[3]
grant dated 3 June 1310:
' Grant and Quitclaim by Jordan de Denay to John de Thornehill'
(Thornhill, Yk) his lord of 1½ acres in Thornehill' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/1/1 - DD/SR/12/102], DD/SR/1/25/M9[3]
grant dated 1316:
' Grant by John de Thornhill' to William son of John son of Roger
del Estwode of a site [placea] of land and woods in Stanesfeld'
(Stansfield, Yk) in tail at an annual rent of 4d in silver '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/26/45[3]
' In 1322 John de Thornhill held the manors of Thornhill and
Hunsworth of the heir of Richard de Tong, a minor in the kg's
wardship, each by the service of 1/8 k.f. (Y.A.J., xxix, 302-3).'
[Clay p. 91[6]]
he d. before 9 July 1322, date of record of his widow's dower:
' Record of the Grant to Beatrice widow of Sir John de Thornhill' by
William de Knol', attorney of Brian son & heir of the said Sir John,
as her dower, of the manor of Thornhill' called Le Grenehalle with
all appurtenances except the advowson of Thornhill, with the boat
ferry in Thornhill on the Kelder, with the lands, tenements, rents
and services of the said Sir John in Whitteley, Brettewysel,
Farneley Tyas, Soutz Deneby and Waddesworth' with their mills and
the vaccaries of Wydehope and Smaleshagh' with their pastures except
a meadow called Thorne Risshes; also the said Sir John's tenements
in Haytheby with half an acre of land at Walcote Heuedland and half
an acre of land in Daly with half a perch, and at Hundehill' half an
acre of land and at Cazehow one acre of land, with 5 acres of meadow
in Colby, Halton' and Flickesburgh, with rents and services from the
tenants of the said Sir John in Colby, Halton', Theuelby, Haytheby
and Burton' except for an annual rent of 6d in Haytheby and an
annual rent of 14s 4d on a tenement in Colby. Beatrice reserves the
right to claim dower on the manor which Thomas de Langefeld in
Thornhill' Green wax seal with the legend' ....BEATRIC...' *
(Thornhill, Yk Wheatley Kelder Briestwistle Farnley Tyas Denby
Wadsworth Wydehope Smaleshagh Thorne Risshes Haythby Walcote
Heuedland Daly Hundehill Cazehow Colby, Li Halton, Li Flixborough,
Li Thealby, Li Burton, Li) '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/1/1 - DD/SR/12/102], DD/SR/1/25/M10[3]
Spouse: Beatrice Talboner
Death: aft 1334[3]
Children: Sir Brian de Thornhill(ca1298->1365)
Thomas
Agnes (->1355)
John (->1349)
Richard
Cecily
1.1.2 Henry de Thornhill
----------------------------------------
clerk
record of grant (undated):
' Grant: William son of John of Witteley to Henry son of Richard of
Thornhill clerk, lands on Thornhill called Mikkelroade and
Rikaedrode 17 acres at 1d p.a. '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], DD/SR/209/123[3]
1.1.3 Brian de Thornhill
----------------------------------------
rector of Bedale, co. Yorks. 1306-1343
grant dated 29 Jun 1305:
' Grant by Thos de Langefeld to John de Thornhill and Sir Brian de
Thornhill, rector of Bedale, of two parts of the manor of Thornhill
and the reversion of the third part, (which is held as dower by Eliz
relict of Wm de Langefeld), with service of all freemen and villeins
and all other appurtenances within and without the town of
Thornhill. Seal in natural wax on tag ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire
Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/20[3]
record of appointment dated 2 May 1316:
' Appointment by Brian de Thornhill', rector of the church of
Bedal', for the term of his life, of John de Langley to take seisin
of all messuages, lands, rents, meadows, tenements, and of all
neifs, chattels and belongings, and of all services of free men,
lordships and services with all profits and appurtenances in
Ridellesdene granted him by Sarah widow of Thomas de Eltoft *
(Riddlesden, Yk) ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of
Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers, DD/SR/1/25/M12[3]
founder of the chantry of Bedale church;
evidently his tomb to be found there (McCall p. 98)[7]
granted dated 1341/2:
C 143/263/8
Brian de Thornhill, parson of the church of Bedale, to grant
messuages, land, and rent in Gilling to a chaplain in the church
of St. Gregory, Bedale, retaining land in Gilling and Bedale. York.
16 EDWARD III. '[8]
licence in mortmain, granting 36 1/2 acres of land and 4 acres of
meadow for the north (St. George's) aisle of Bedale church, dated
16 June 1342 (McCall p. 86)
1.1.4 Peter de Thornhill
----------------------------------------
of Thornhill Lees, co. Yorks.
record of grant, undated [est. c 1300] :
' Grant for 20 marks sterling by William the Chaplain ('Capellanus')
son of Adam de Leys to Peter son of Sir Ric de Thornhill of all the
lands tenements etc which he once held of the said Sir Ric within
the bounds of Thornhilleys; the grantee tendering yearly to Sir
Richard 6s 6d of silver and a half penny of silver 'for the fine of
the wapentake', for all secular (save forinsec) services etc '
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/36/12 [3]
Children: Richard (->1338)
1.1.5 Agnes de Thornhill
----------------------------------------
Confirmation dated 3 Apr 1317:
' William de Swynburn knight confirms to William de Kergill and
Beatrice his wife the grant which Agnes de Thornhill wife of the
late Alexander de Swynburn his father made to them from her dower
of the township of Halghton so that whatever should happen to the
said Agnes, William and Beatrix or their heirs shall have the dower
for the full term of 10 years from the making of this deed
Witnessed by lords John de Vall, John de Hauleton, Robert
de Insula de Chipcheese knights, Robert de Raymes, William de
Denom, Dated at Newcastle upon Tyne Easter Day in the 10th year
of King Edward son of King Edward [Vol. 1. p. 2.. HN.III.i.p.20] '
-- A2A, Northumberland Record Office: Swinburne (Capheaton) estate
records [ZSW/1 - ZSW/59], ZSW/1/52[3]
Spouse: Alexander de Swinburn
Death: bef 3 Apr 1317[3]
Father: Sir William de Swinburn
Children: William
1.2a Sir Brian FitzAlan*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 10 May 1306[7]
of Bedale
IPM dated 11 Aug 1306[7]
cf. McCall pp. 32-39[7]
Spouse: Muriel [1st wife]
Death: bef 1291[7]
Children: Thomas (-<1291)
Robert (-<1291)
Theobald (-<1291)
Other Spouses Maud [2nd wife]
1.2a.1 Thomas FitzAlan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1291, d.v.p.[7]
1.2a.2 Robert FitzAlan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1291, d.v.p.[7]
1.2a.3 Theobald FitzAlan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1291, d.v.p.[7]
1.2b Sir Brian FitzAlan* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Maud [2nd wife]
Death: aft 1339[7]
Children: Agnes (<1298-<1348)
Katherine (<1300-)
1.2b.1a Agnes FitzAlan*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 12 Aug 1298[7]
Death: bef 3 Nov 1348
elsewhere called Maud[7]
coheiress of her father
grant of her marriage, being a minor in the king's custody, to Sir
Miles de Stapleton, 10 May 1306[7]
Charter for a fair [ vfm, John the Baptist (24 Jun)], granted 7 Aug
1328, by King Edward III to Thomas de Shelfeld and Agnes his wife
and John de Grey (CChR, 1327-41, p. 89). Thomas de Shelfeld and
Agnes his wife held one half of the manor; John de Grey held the
other half. This was one of two fairs granted in lieu of the
Ascension fair.'[1]
she m. 1stly Gilbert de Stapleton,
2ndly Sir Thomas de Sheffield
cf. McCall p. 48[7]
Spouse: Sir Gilbert de Stapleton
Birth: 1291[9]
Death: bef 1 Jul 1321[7],[9]
Father: Sir Miles de Stapleton (-1314)
Mother: Sybil de Bellew (-<1300)
Marr: 1317[9]
Children: Sir Miles (-<1364)
Sir Brian (-1394)
Katherine
Avice
1.2b.1b Agnes FitzAlan* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir Thomas de Sheffield
Death: bef 3 Nov 1348
Marr: bef 7 Aug 1328[1],[7]
Children: William de Sheffield
Sir John [possibly a son]
Alice
1.2b.2 Katherine FitzAlan
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 12 Aug 1300[7]
coheiress of her father[7]
1.3 Theobald FitzAlan
----------------------------------------
1.4 Margery filia Alani
----------------------------------------
1. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
2. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by
Joseph Foster, London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 (2 Vols.).
3. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
4. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell
and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of
Hastings of Elsing ('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The
Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
5. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. II," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Record series
vol. L - 1914.
6. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
7. H. B. McCall, "The Early History of Bedale : in the North Riding
of Yorkshire," London: E. Stock, 1907.
8. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
9. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
* John P. Ravilious
Thornhill of Thornhill and FitzAlan of Bedale (a conjectured
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Gjest
Thornhill of Thornhill and FitzAlan of Bedale (a conjectured
Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 16:21:01
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- ↳ Sunnhordland
- ↳ Austevoll
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- ↳ Sunnhordland - ukjent kommune
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- ↳ Møre og Romsdal
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- ↳ Oppland - ukjent sted
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- ↳ Strinda og Selbu
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- ↳ Trondheim
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- ↳ Telemark
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- ↳ Drangedal
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- ↳ Midt-Telemark
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- ↳ Notodden-Rjukan-distriktet
- ↳ Hjartdal
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