Lancaster confusion

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Leo van de Pas

Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 01 okt 2005 00:29:01

We all know how wonderful Burke's Peerage is---except for the medieval period :-(

In Burke's Peerage 1999 edition, page 701, we find
Sir William Lindsay, feudal lord of Lamberton, who married Alice, daughter and co-heir of William de Lancaster, feudal Lord of Kendal.
------------
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 page 313, seems to give different information.
William de Lancaster married Helewise de Stuteville
they had an only daughter
Helewise de Lancaster who married Gilbert FitzReinfride
they had the following children
1.William the heir, of whom presently and shown there to have adopted the Lancaster surname
2.Helewise who married Peter de Brus (Weis shows her with the Lancaster surname)
3.Alice married to William de Lindesay (no doubt the above couple)
4.Serota married to Allan de Multon

According to this account William the heir died about 1246 s.p. his estates being divided between his two elder sisters, the youngest having died d.s.p. This last Baron had a bastard brother, called Roger de Lancaster
------------
For me, two questions arise Why is Alice in BP 1999 called daughter of William but in BP 1866 she is a daughter of Gilbert FitzReinfride? I can only presume that the same Gilbert is the father of the bastard Roger de Lancaster-----why is Roger called de Lancaster as he has no Lancaster ancestry?

This Alice de Lancaster is an ancestor of Gateway Ancestor Maria de Carpentier,
Jean Luc Godard, the Duque de Abrantes (heir of Moctezuma), Hugh Grant, Sarah Ferguson, Camilla Duchess of Cornwall, Lady Diana Spencer, Rachel Ward, Brooke Shields, Mathilde of Belgium, Princess Michael of Kent and many others.

I do hope someone can give this Alice her correct parents.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 01 okt 2005 02:10:02

Leo,

Is this the consensus? These families are so intermingled, it is difficult
to sort out.

Ivo de Tailbois
|
Eldred
|
Ketel
|
Gilbert
|

William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne by whom:
|
Avice m. Richard de Morville s/o Hugh and Beatrice Beauchamp, bro. to
Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239
m. Isabel de Lancaster
|
William de Lancaster II d. 1184 m. Helewise de Stuteville[ also m. Hugh de
Morville of Burgh (Simon's line) and William son of Ranulf, lord of
Greystoke] by whom:
|
Helewise de Lancaster m. Gilbert son of Roger son of Reinfrid (usually
known as Gilbert Fitz Fitz Reinfrid), Baron of Kendal, held great baronies
of Westmoreland. [William de Lancaster, the second, died in 1184, and left
an only daughter, Helewisa, who was given in marriage by Henry II to
Gilbert, the son of his steward Roger fitz Reinfrid, with her entire
inheritance.] by whom:
|
William de Lancaster III
Helewisa m. Peter de Brus
Alice m. W. de Lindsay
Serota m. ____ Multon
Roger of Lancaster, Gilbert Fitz Reinfrid¹s illegitimate son

This according to: Nicholson and Burn: The History and Antiquities of the
Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland. A History of Cumberland [Sciant
omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Willelmus de Lancastra cum consilio
consensu et concessione Willelmi fili et heredis me dedi et concessi et hac
presenti carta mea confirmavi Cospatricio filio Orme.......";CWAAS.

Pat


----------
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Lancaster confusion
Date: Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 6:27 PM


We all know how wonderful Burke's Peerage is---except for the medieval period
:-(

In Burke's Peerage 1999 edition, page 701, we find
Sir William Lindsay, feudal lord of Lamberton, who married Alice, daughter
and co-heir of William de Lancaster, feudal Lord of Kendal.
------------
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 page 313, seems to give different information.
William de Lancaster married Helewise de Stuteville
they had an only daughter
Helewise de Lancaster who married Gilbert FitzReinfride
they had the following children
1.William the heir, of whom presently and shown there to have adopted the
Lancaster surname
2.Helewise who married Peter de Brus (Weis shows her with the Lancaster
surname)
3.Alice married to William de Lindesay (no doubt the above couple)
4.Serota married to Allan de Multon

According to this account William the heir died about 1246 s.p. his estates
being divided between his two elder sisters, the youngest having died
d.s.p. This last Baron had a bastard brother, called Roger de Lancaster
------------
For me, two questions arise Why is Alice in BP 1999 called daughter of
William but in BP 1866 she is a daughter of Gilbert FitzReinfride? I can
only presume that the same Gilbert is the father of the bastard Roger de
Lancaster-----why is Roger called de Lancaster as he has no Lancaster
ancestry?

This Alice de Lancaster is an ancestor of Gateway Ancestor Maria de
Carpentier,
Jean Luc Godard, the Duque de Abrantes (heir of Moctezuma), Hugh Grant,
Sarah Ferguson, Camilla Duchess of Cornwall, Lady Diana Spencer, Rachel
Ward, Brooke Shields, Mathilde of Belgium, Princess Michael of Kent and
many others.

I do hope someone can give this Alice her correct parents.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 02:48:01

In a message dated 9/30/05 5:09:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

<< William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne by whom:
|
Avice m. Richard de Morville s/o Hugh and Beatrice Beauchamp, bro. to
Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239
m. Isabel de Lancaster >>

Except we have been saying that Avice cannot be a daughter of Gundred's
because Avice must have been born earlier than Avice's prior husband's death.
Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 01 okt 2005 03:17:02

Dear Will,
I really feel thick "Avice must have been born earlier than Avice's prior
husband's death"
did she have a prior husband? I thought she was married only once.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Lancaster confusion


In a message dated 9/30/05 5:09:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne by whom:
|
Avice m. Richard de Morville s/o Hugh and Beatrice Beauchamp, bro. to
Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son Ivo de Veteripont d.
1239
m. Isabel de Lancaster

Except we have been saying that Avice cannot be a daughter of Gundred's
because Avice must have been born earlier than Avice's prior husband's
death.
Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 03:43:02

In a message dated 9/30/05 6:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Dear Will, I really feel thick "Avice must have been born earlier than
Avice's prior husband's death" did she have a prior husband? I thought she
was married only once. Leo >>
-------------------------------------------------------------

Avice (Hawise) de Lancaster married Richard de Morville, Constable of Scotland
They had a daughter Elena (Helen) de Morville who married Roland (Lochlan),
Lord of Galloway
This Elena was the mother of Alan FitzRoland, Lord of Galloway and Constable
of Scotland 1215-34

Now let us examine the chronology.
1) Alan was born between 1170 and 1180. If anyone disagrees let her/him
speak now.
2) Therefore Elena his mother must have been born by 1167 at the least but no
earlier than 1125
3) Then Elena's mother Avice (Hawise) must have been born in the period
1080-1154
These birth ranges allow the mothers to be between 13 and 45 when giving
birth.

Even with this most liberal treatment Avice, if she was the daughter of
Gundred could ONLY have been born exactly in 1154. This is because Gundred's first
husband Roger de Newburgh, 2nd Earl of Warwick had only died 12 Jun 1153.
Even if Gundred remarried immediately, we cannot get nine and 1/2 months
until we are into 1154.

Let us assume than that Avise (Hawise) was b in 1154, then her daughter Elena
must have been b in 1167 and then Alan of Galloway in turn must have been b
in 1180. Each person at the very edge of credulity. Two mothers aged 13 in a
row and a son born at the very edge of his possible birth years range.

It's not tenable. It is highly likely therefore that Avice (Hawise) de
Lancaster, dau of William Lancaster, Lord of Kendal (d 1170) was a daughter by a
prior marriage of William's and was not the daughter of Gundred de Warenne.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 03:46:01

In a message dated 9/30/05 6:31:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< It's not tenable. It is highly likely therefore that Avice (Hawise) de
Lancaster, dau of William Lancaster, Lord of Kendal (d 1170) was a daughter
by a
prior marriage of William's and was not the daughter of Gundred de Warenne.

Will Johnson >>

And as a post-script, knowing now that William Lancaster had a prior wife,
identity unknown, allows us to resurrect the attribution to him of a son
"Gilbert de Stainton". This Gilbert had a daughter Christian de Stainton by Michael
le Fleming. This son, named William le Fleming is said by AR to have been
born ca 1150.

Weis states that Gilbert is a "probable son", this is mostly because of the
"Gundred" problem I posted. However, now that we know that William must have
had a prior wife, we can possibly fit Gilbert back into the picture. If
Christian was born in say 1135, then her father Gilbert born in 1115 would require
William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendal (d 1170) to have been born no earlier than
1095.

Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 okt 2005 09:07:29

Will Johnson wrote:
3) Then Elena's mother Avice (Hawise) must have been born in the period
1080-1154
These birth ranges allow the mothers to be between 13 and 45 when giving
birth.

Even with this most liberal treatment Avice, if she was the daughter of
Gundred could ONLY have been born exactly in 1154. This is because
Gundred's first
husband Roger de Newburgh, 2nd Earl of Warwick had only died 12 Jun 1153.
Even if Gundred remarried immediately, we cannot get nine and 1/2 months
until we are into 1154.

And more seriously, Keats-Rohan [Domesday Descendants, p. 1069] says that
Hawise, before her marriage to Richard de Morville, was married to William
II Peverel, who became a monk in 1154. If this is correct, it pushes her
birth back to at latest the early 1140s.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 00:52:01

In a message dated 10/1/05 1:11:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< And more seriously, Keats-Rohan [Domesday Descendants, p. 1069] says that
Hawise, before her marriage to Richard de Morville, was married to William
II Peverel, who became a monk in 1154. If this is correct, it pushes her
birth back to at latest the early 1140s. >>

This would be a problem if true. The William Peverell who became a monk in
1154 was already quite aged.
His own mother (adeliza) had died 1119/20

I wonder why Keats-Rohan wants to put this particular Hawise as his wife ? I
do show his wife as Hawise (Avice) but just not this one.

Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 04 okt 2005 02:16:02

All,

Apologize for the redux.

Has a consensus been reached in the case of Gundred de Warrenne? Has she
been eliminated as the mother of Avice of Lancaster based on the chronology
discussion?

And, it there satisfactory evidence of the first wife of Alan of Galloway?
Did he marry two de Lacy women?

From collected sources, is all or part of the following subject to
correction?

Thank you very much for clarifications,
Pat



Ivo de Tailbois
|
Eldred
|
Ketel
|
Gilbert
|
1. William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne b. c. 1107-27,
d. 1167+ m. 1) Roger de Newburgh b. 1102, d. 12 Jun 1151-3.
[GUNDRED4 DE WARENNE (William II3, William2, Rodolf1) of Warwick,
daughter of (3) William II3, 2nd Earl of Surrey and (S-26) Countess
Isabel (Elizabeth) (de VERMANDOIS) (BEAUMONT), was born between 1107 and
1127, died after 1167 in Warwickshire and was buried in Kelso,
Roxburghshire. She married (1st) before 1130, (AJ-27) ROGER DE NEWBURGH, 2ND
EARL OF WARWICK, son of (AJ-15) Henry, 1st Earl of Warwick and (AH-3)
Margaret (de PERCHE), who was born in 1102 in Warwick, and died on 12 June
1151/3 in Warwickshire. She married (2nd) circa 1154, (UL-2) WILLIAM DE
LANCASTER I, 5TH BARON KENDAL, son of (UL-1) Gilbert, 4th Baron Kendal, who
died in 1170[2]. [6, 24, 8, 15, 14, 10, 1] Children of: Gundred4 de WARENNE
and Roger de NEWBURGH, 2nd Earl of Warwick: See (AJ-27) Roger de NEWBURGH,
2nd Earl of Warwick:Sources cited--Frederick Lewis Weis, "Ancestral Roots of
Certain American Colonists", 7th ed., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
1999;Gary Boyd Roberts, "Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants", Genealogical
Publishing Co., 2002, p.429;on Redlich, Marcellus Donald Alexander R.,
"Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, Vol. I",
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1941, p.121;Aileen Lewers Langston and J. Orton
Buck, Jr., "Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, Vol.
II", Genealogical Publishing Co., 1974, p.109, 306;J. Orton Buck and Timothy
Field Beard, "Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants,
Vol. III", Genealogical Publishing Co., 1978, p.109, 113, 198, 211,
etc.http://armidalesoftware.com/issue/full/ ... _main.html]

by whom:
|
1a.Avice m. Richard de Morville, b. c. 1154 d. 1189-1200 s/o Hugh and
Beatrice Beauchamp,bro. to Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son
Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239 m. Isabel de Lancaster
1a1. Elena de Morville d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200. On 25 June 1213 Elena/Helena to show why she did not keep
the fine made in the King's court by chirograph..land in
Wissindene..recovered her land.
1a1a. Alan of Galloway d. 1234 m. 1) ____ Lacy sis or dau of
Roger de Lacy,of Pontefract, presumably dead bef. 1209; 2) m. c. 1209
Margaret of Huntingdon, 3) m. 1228, Rose daughter of Hugh de Lacy Earl of
Ulster by 1st wife, Lesceline de Verdun
On Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:56:57 -0800 GEN-MEDIEVALFrom: Kathleen Much
<kathleen@CASBS.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: HELEN OF GALLOWAY ":K.J. Stringer, ed. _Essays of the
Nobility of Medieval Scotland_ (Edinburgh, 1985), p. 49, says Alan married
a sister of John de Lacy, Constable of Chester and future Earl of Lincoln,
Margaret, daughter of Earl David of Huntingdon, and Rose, daughter of Hugh
de Lacy, Earl of Ulster. He does not say in that article why he thinks
the first wife was a sister of John de Lacy; he published an article called
"A New Wife for Alan of Galloway" in a journal he cited to me as 'TDGAS'--I
don't remember what TDGAS stands for (probably Transactions of Dumfries and
Galloway something), and I can't put my hands on the offprint. Several years
ago Keith Stringer told me he was preparing an article on Alan for a
festschrift for Geoffrey Barrow," RE: recent thread:
by first wife:
1a1a1a Helen b. bef. 1208 m. Roger de Quincy who m.
2)Alianore by Margaret of Huntingdon [see below Kippax-Scholes ]
1a1a2) Christian d.1213 in custody of Roger fitz Roger
1a1a3) Devorguilla d. 1289
by Rose ?

Kevin Bradford Gen-Med: dated 1214 CE, which reads as follows:
Cumb'.-Willelmus de Jonesbi [JONEBI?]Alanus de Camberton' Adam de Hocton',
tres milites de comitatu Cumberland' missi ad Carleolum in occursum Elene de
Morevill' et Alani de Galweia filii ejus ad videndum quem atornatum ipsa
Elena facere voluisset etc. in loquela que est inter ipsam et abbatem de
Londores de advocatione ecclesie de Wissenden' in comitatu Roteland' et ad
videndum quem atornatum idem Alanus facere voluerit etc. in loquela que est
inter ipsum et Johannem de Cestr' de warantia carte de terra de Kippes
[KIPPAX] in comitatu Ebor', dicunt quod Elena point loco suo Adam de
Torinton' vel Hamonem Clericum versus abbatem de Londor' de placito ecclesie
de Wissenden' in comitatu Roteland'. Dicunt etiam quod Alanus de Galweye
posuit etc. eundem Hamonem Clericum vel Ricardum de Crevequor versus
Johannem de Cestr' de placito warantie carte de terra in Kipesc in comitatu
Ebor'. Et dictum est illis tribus militibus quod eant sine die. Et quoniam
Willelmus de Percy quartus miles non venit, q!ui! debuit testificasse simul
cum ipsis atornatos predictorum, consideratum est quod atachietur quod sit a
die Pasche in tres septimanas. Post venit Willelmus de Percy et dixit
idem......
(There) is a maritagium suit in the same source [_Curia Regis Rolls_],
further down on p. 86, under date of 1214 CE, which reads: Ebor'.-Alanus de
Galweye per predictos Hamonem Clericum et Ricardum de Crevequor optulit se
quarto die versus Johannem de Cestr' de placito quod idem Johannes
warantizet cartas Ricardi patris sui quas Alanus de Galweye habet de
maritagio sororis sue: et ipse non venit vel se essoniavit etc., et
summonitio etc. Et ideo atachietur quod sit ad predictum terminum etc.
1211-12 Alan of Galloway and Elana his Mother owe 500 marks and six palfreys
for recognizance of the land of

[Wixindene(Wissendene)[Rutland]and Bosegate whereof Richard de Moreville
Helana's father was seized on the day when war began between K Henry and
William K of Scotland, and whether Richard was disseized there off on any
other account than the aforesaid war. ]

Beatrice de Beauchamp¹s maritagium included "...four knights' fees
respectively at Bozeat, Northants, Whissendine and Whitwell in Rutland,
Offord in Huntingdonshire, and Houghton Conquest beside Bedford--the 5 hides
at Houghton having been originally acquired by Hugh de Beauchamp, Beatrice's
grandfather, probably not long before 1086."[G. W. S. Barrow, "The
Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History," Oxford, 1980, citation provided by
Kathleen Much (kathleen@casbs.stanford.edu), SGM, 3 January 1996.,
http://www.hypertree.com/galloway/fergus.html cites G.W.S. Barrow, _The
Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History_ (Oxford, 1980), p. 17;, also K.J.
Stringer, ed. _Essays of the Nobility of Medieval Scotland_ (Edinburgh,
1985). From: Therav3@aol.com To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re:
Morville - Stuteville question Date: Tue, Nov 23, 2004, 6:57 AM Tuesday, 23
November, 2004

MANORIAL - ref. DD/FJ/6MANORS OF EARL OF LINCOLN- ref. DD/FJ/6/1/1 - date:
1278Bradeford and Kipeys (Bradford and Kippax, Yorks.).Corporation of London
Records Office Royal Contract Estates Catalogue Ref. CLA/044
Surveys and rentals - ref. CLA/044/03 Observations upon the 14 Manors
within the "Honor of Pontfract in the countie of Yorkshire ...are: Allerton,
Ackworth, Barwick, Bighall, Campsall, Cridlinge, South Elmeshall, Kippax,
Knottingley, Leedes, Marsden, Rothwell, Roundhay and Scoles..Manors of
Ledston, Kippax and Barwick, had been granted to Ilbert de Lascy as part of
the Honour of Pontefract.. At some time after this, Barwick and Scholes
became separate manors. By about 1240 in the early part of the reign of
Henry III, the lordship of the manor of Scholes had by some means passed to
Roger de Quency, Earl of Winchester. In 1253-4, the manor was returned to
the de Lascy family when Roger de Quency transferred it to Edmund de Lascy
in an exchange. In 1256, in a settlement made for the marriage of Henry de
Lascy, son of Edmund, and Margaret, daughter of Sir William Longespee,
Edmund gave the manors of Scholes and Kippax to Margaret for her life. On
her death they came to her husband. In 1294, Alice de Lascy, the heiress of
the family estates, married Thomas, 2nd. Earl of Lancaster and nephew of the
King, Edward 1. The de Lascy lands then became part of the vast Lancaster
estates, which extended over many parts of the
country.[http://www.hjsmith.clara.co.uk/4913.htm]

|
2.William de Lancaster II d. 1184 m. Helewise de Stuteville[ also m. Hugh de
Morville of Burgh (Simon's line) and William son of Ranulf, lord of
Greystoke] by whom:
|
3. Helewise de Lancaster m. Gilbert son of Roger son of Reinfrid (usually
known as Gilbert Fitz Fitz Reinfrid), Baron of Kendal, held great baronies
of Westmoreland. [William de Lancaster, the second, died in 1184, and left
an only daughter, Helewisa, who was given in marriage by Henry II to
Gilbert, the son of his steward Roger fitz Reinfrid, with her entire
inheritance. Gilbert commanded to meet King at Solway in 1217] by whom:
|
4. William de Lancaster III
4.Helewisa m. Peter de Brus
4.Alice m. W. de Lindsay
4.Serota m. ____ Multon
4.Roger of Lancaster, Gilbert Fitz Reinfrid¹s illegitimate son

Sources:Nicholson and Burn: The History and Antiquities of the Counties of
Westmoreland and Cumberland. A History of Cumberland [Sciant omnes tam
presentes quam futuri quod ego Willelmus de Lancastra cum consilio consensu
et concessione Willelmi fili et heredis me dedi et concessi et hac presenti
carta mea confirmavi Cospatricio filio Orme.......";CWAAS.

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 02:36:02

In a message dated 10/3/05 5:15:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

<< 1. William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne b. c.
1107-27,
d. 1167+ m. 1) Roger de Newburgh b. 1102, d. 12 Jun 1151-3.
[GUNDRED4 DE WARENNE (William II3, William2, Rodolf1) of Warwick,
daughter of (3)

<SNIP>
by whom:
|
1a.Avice m. Richard de Morville, b. c. 1154 d. 1189-1200 s/o Hugh and
Beatrice Beauchamp,bro. to Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son
Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239 m. Isabel de Lancaster
1a1. Elena de Morville d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200. On 25 June 1213 Elena/Helena to show why she did not keep
the fine made in the King's court by chirograph..land in
Wissindene..recovered her land.
1a1a. Alan of Galloway d. 1234 >>

Pat I already explained why this line is broken (at the point I snipped
above).
There is not enough time for Avice b c 1154 as you erroneously have it, to
have had Alan, Lord of Galloway.
See my last post on this subject.
Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 04 okt 2005 08:00:05

Will Johnson wrote:
I wonder why Keats-Rohan wants to put this particular Hawise as his wife ?
I
do show his wife as Hawise (Avice) but just not this one.

Unfortunately, K.-R. just gives a (fairly long) list of references after her
entry for William II Peverel, so it's not possible to tell what the evidence
is for any particular statement. In the entry for William de Lancaster, she
follows the statement about Hawise's marriages with a reference to "J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its Charters,
ed. Thackeray, p. 107n". Though it's not really clear whether this relates
specifically to Hawise.

Chris Phillips

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 04 okt 2005 16:14:01

Will,

I am not suggesting that Avice of Lancaster is the mother of Alan of
Galloway, rather his grandmother. His mother was Elena de Morville who m.
Rolland of Galloway. The property of Wissenden came through Richard de
Morville from his mother Beatrice Beauchamp to Elena. And you will notice
Wissenden also appears in the item posted by Kevin Bradford Gen-Med:
dated 1214 CE, which reads as follows:
Cumb'.-Willelmus de Jonesbi [JONEBI?]Alanus de Camberton' Adam de Hocton',
tres milites de comitatu Cumberland' missi ad Carleolum in occursum Elene de
Morevill' et Alani de Galweia filii ejus ad videndum quem atornatum ipsa
Elena facere voluisset etc. in loquela que est inter ipsam et abbatem de
Londores de advocatione ecclesie de Wissenden' in comitatu Roteland' et ad
videndum quem atornatum idem Alanus facere voluerit etc. in loquela que est
inter ipsum et Johannem de Cestr' de warantia carte de terra de Kippes
[KIPPAX] in comitatu Ebor', dicunt quod Elena point loco suo Adam de
Torinton' vel Hamonem Clericum versus abbatem de Londor' de placito ecclesie
de Wissenden' in comitatu Roteland'......

Thank you for responding.

Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lancaster confusion
Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2005, 8:35 PM


In a message dated 10/3/05 5:15:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

1. William de Lancaster I d. c. 1171-2 m. Gundred de Warrenne b. c.
1107-27,
d. 1167+ m. 1) Roger de Newburgh b. 1102, d. 12 Jun 1151-3.
[GUNDRED4 DE WARENNE (William II3, William2, Rodolf1) of Warwick,
daughter of (3)

SNIP
by whom:
|
1a.Avice m. Richard de Morville, b. c. 1154 d. 1189-1200 s/o Hugh and
Beatrice Beauchamp,bro. to Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son
Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239 m. Isabel de Lancaster
1a1. Elena de Morville d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200. On 25 June 1213 Elena/Helena to show why she did not keep
the fine made in the King's court by chirograph..land in
Wissindene..recovered her land.
1a1a. Alan of Galloway d. 1234

Pat I already explained why this line is broken (at the point I snipped
above).
There is not enough time for Avice b c 1154 as you erroneously have it, to
have had Alan, Lord of Galloway.
See my last post on this subject.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 17:04:01

In a message dated 10/4/2005 7:12:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

I am not suggesting that Avice of Lancaster is the mother of Alan of
Galloway, rather his grandmother. His mother was Elena de Morville who m.
Rolland of Galloway.


Pat perhaps I mispoke. There is not enough time to elapse between Avise and
Alan.
If you read my post where I gave the chronology, it makes the issue more
clear.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 17:05:02

In a message dated 10/4/2005 7:12:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

I am not suggesting that Avice of Lancaster is the mother of Alan of
Galloway, rather his grandmother. His mother was Elena de Morville who m.
Rolland of Galloway.


We know that Alan had to be born by 1180 at the very latest, while his
grandmother is said (by you) to have been born abt 1154. That just does not work.
Will

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 04 okt 2005 20:00:02

Will,
The first mention I have of Alan is in a Charter of William, King of Scots
to Hugo de Benne in 1201 witnessed by Alan son of Rolland the constable,
William de Vipont and Ivo de Vipont. I must agree that Alan must have been
born ca. 1180.

William de Lancaster I b. c. 1090-1100 d. c. 1171-2 m.1) ____?' 2) Gundred
de Warrene who m. 1120-30 ROGER DE NEWBURGH who d. 1151-3.

Avice ?????? m. Richard de Morville, d. c, 1189 s/o Hugh, dead 1162, and
Beatrice Beauchamp, bro. to Maud who m. William de Veteri Ponte whose son
Ivo de Veteripont d. 1239 m. Isabel de Lancaster. Based on Vipont research,
the William who married Maud c. 1154-6 was born 1090-1100 in the same
generation as William I of Lancaster. William had been previously married
and had three sons, one of whom was an adult between 1153- 60. The children
of Maud and William Vipont were born c.a. 1145+ Richard was older so could
have had children say 1140.

Elena de Morville b. c. 1140 d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200.


Alan of Galloway b. c. 1180+ d. 1234

This would be reasonable if Avice was a daughter of the earlier marriage of
William de Lancaster.

Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lancaster confusion
Date: Tue, Oct 4, 2005, 11:04 AM



In a message dated 10/4/2005 7:12:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

I am not suggesting that Avice of Lancaster is the mother of Alan of
Galloway, rather his grandmother. His mother was Elena de Morville who m.
Rolland of Galloway.


We know that Alan had to be born by 1180 at the very latest, while his
grandmother is said (by you) to have been born about 1154. That just does
not work.
Will

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 21:25:01

In a message dated 10/4/05 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< Elena de Morville b. c. 1140 d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200.
Alan of Galloway b. c. 1180+ d. 1234 >>

Yes, if by "c" you're willing to admit a 10 to 20 year span.
And yes, Avice must be by an earlier marriage and therefore the line to her
previously supposed mother is what fails.
Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 04 okt 2005 22:37:01

Am open to possibilities until we find more definitive information.
Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lancaster confusion
Date: Tue, Oct 4, 2005, 3:23 PM


In a message dated 10/4/05 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

Elena de Morville b. c. 1140 d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200.
Alan of Galloway b. c. 1180+ d. 1234

Yes, if by "c" you're willing to admit a 10 to 20 year span.
And yes, Avice must be by an earlier marriage and therefore the line to her
previously supposed mother is what fails.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 22:50:02

In a message dated 10/4/05 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< William de Lancaster I b. c. 1090-1100 d. c. 1171-2 m.1) ____?' 2) Gundred
de Warrene who m. 1120-30 ROGER DE NEWBURGH who d. 1151-3. >>

Roger de Newburgh died 12 Jun 1153
Without this specificity, the argument falls apart.
For this date see http://www.genealogics.org

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 22:53:02

In a message dated 10/4/05 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< Based on Vipont research,
the William who married Maud c. 1154-6 was born 1090-1100 in the same
generation as William I of Lancaster. William had been previously married
and had three sons, one of whom was an adult between 1153- 60. The children
of Maud and William Vipont were born c.a. 1145+ Richard was older so could
have had children say 1140. >>

This paragraph contradicts itself.
If Maud and William Vipont were married c 1154-6 then they could not be
having children "born c a 1145 +" but rather must have been "c a 1154+"
Correct?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2005 22:55:03

In a message dated 10/4/05 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< Elena de Morville b. c. 1140 d. 1217 d/o Richard m. Roland, Lord of
Galloway, d. 1200. >>

The birthyear of Elena is completely unknown. All we know is that she had a
son Alan between 1170 and 1180 most likely. To be so specific on 1140 is
begging the question. I have her as b 1125 to 1167 allowing her to be at least 13
and at most 43 at Alan's birth.
Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lancaster confusion

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 05 okt 2005 01:32:01

Will,
Somehow am missing Roger de Newburgh on Leo's site. What is the source for
the specific death date?
I was a bit dyslectic on the date Maud and William de Vipont began having
children by Maud ca. 1154. Ivo succeeded to his father's lands at Alston in
1182.
Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lancaster confusion
Date: Tue, Oct 4, 2005, 4:49 PM


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