Canadian Red-Indian Question

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Leo van de Pas

Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 sep 2005 12:12:02

Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in 1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 105 gives a more detailed account. Mary (not Frances) de Wissenbergh's father John was said to be a German settler, they had three children, not named, and she died shortly after 1742. "He is said" to have married (on her deathbed) a young Dutch woman , by whom he had many children (also none named). Then a footnote after this second (unnamed) wife died he had as mistress Molly Brandt, sister of the famous War Chief of the Mohawks, and they had eight children.

In one record I have seen that daughter Mary is marked off as a daughter of this Molly Brandt, and can anyone confirm this? William Addams Reitwiesner supplied the details that she was born in 1740 Fort Johnson, New York and baptised 14 October 1744. This would make Mary older than Anne, if both are born legitimately.

Sadly, no details are given as to when this second "marriage" took place or when the affaire with Molly Brandt started. This Mary is an ancestor of the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Wemyss, Lord Glenconner and the Duchess of Alba.

If anyone can add to this, that would be greatly appreciated.
Leo van de Pas

John Brandon

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av John Brandon » 29 sep 2005 14:34:27

This Sir William Johnson is in Gary B. Roberts, _The Royal Descents of
600 Immigrants_. Molly Brandt is discussed in Ethel Farrington Smith,
_Colonial American Doctresses: A Genealogical and Biographical Account
of Women Who Practiced Medicine and Chirurgery in Colonial America_
(Boston: Newbury Street Press, 2003).

Denis Beauregard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 29 sep 2005 15:37:57

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:10:33 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in 1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.

See
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=36096

However, there is no Wissenbergh or similar name in Montreal at that
time. This is probably another town. Montreal was taken by the
English only in 1760. In the DCB page, Catherine (not Mary) is
said to be from New York City (Manhattan ?).

Mohawk mainland is in the northern of New York State. While there are
some Mohawk places in the south of Quebec, in 1739 they would not be
identified as Mohawk but as Iroquois or Agniers (the French terms).

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 105 gives a more detailed account. Mary (not Frances) de Wissenbergh's father John was said to be a German settler, they had three children, not named, and she died shortly after 1742. "He is said" to have married (on her deathbed) a young Dutch woman , by whom he had many children (also none named). Then a footnote after this second (unnamed) wife died he had as mistress Molly Brandt, sister of the famous War Chief of the Mohawks, and they had eight children.

About the Brant family, see:
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp? ... =brantford
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp? ... D%20joseph

In one record I have seen that daughter Mary is marked off as a daughter of this Molly Brandt, and can anyone confirm this? William Addams Reitwiesner supplied the details that she was born in 1740 Fort Johnson, New York and baptised 14 October 1744. This would make Mary older than Anne, if both are born legitimately.

If you check the other Brant (not Brandt) siblings, this is not
possible.

Sadly, no details are given as to when this second "marriage" took place or when the affaire with Molly Brandt started. This Mary is an ancestor of the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Wemyss, Lord Glenconner and the Duchess of Alba.

If anyone can add to this, that would be greatly appreciated.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard - Les Français d'Amérique
/\/ http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1711
/ | http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
oo oo Mon association de généalogie: http://www.sgcf.com

Vicki Perry

Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Vicki Perry » 29 sep 2005 15:52:01

Hi,

I was following the posts about Henry VIII's offspring with interest. Does
anybody know if there are any descendants of his illegitimate (or alleged
illegitimate) children alive today?
Thanks
Vicki

Gjest

Re: Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2005 17:01:02

Vicki Perry writes:

Hi,

I was following the posts about Henry VIII's offspring with interest. Does
anybody know if there are any descendants of his illegitimate (or alleged
illegitimate) children alive today?

Lots - including me

Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon
Robert Carey, 1st earl of Monmouth
Thomas Carey, second son
Elizabeth Carey married John Mordaunt, Viscount Mordaunt
Sophia Mordaunt married James Hamilton
Anne Catherine Hamilton married Michael Ward
Bernard Ward, 1st Viscount Bangor
Hon Robert Ward, third son
Anne Catherine Ward married John Goddard Richards of Ardamine, co Wexford
1793-1846

then a few more generations to me, which explains why I am grateful to Tony
Hoskins for his article

Leo very kindly provided me with a massive list of descendents

cheers

Simon

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 sep 2005 19:48:28

Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:10:33 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:


Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in 1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.


See
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=36096

However, there is no Wissenbergh or similar name in Montreal at that
time. This is probably another town. Montreal was taken by the
English only in 1760. In the DCB page, Catherine (not Mary) is
said to be from New York City (Manhattan ?).


The whole Montreal connectionn seems to be an unwarrented assumption by
Burkes, but I have my doubts about the NYC connection as well.


THE CATARAQUI ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESEARCH FOUNDATION web site reports:

"William Johnson had previously co-habited with a German woman named
Catherine Weissenberg. Although he had hired her as a housekeeper at
Fort Johnson, they had three children: Nancy, Mary (Polly), and John
were all christened at Fort Hunter, under Weissenberg's name only.
Although Johnson regarded Weissenberg, who had been an indentured
servant, as beneath his social status, he did regard these three
children as legitimate offspring (Green, 1989:237). Catherine
Weissenberg died in 1759 (Graymont, 1979:417) the same year that Molly
gave birth to her and Sir William's first child."

http://www.carf.info/kingstonpast/mollybrant.php

The sources cited here are:

Green, Gretchen, 1989. "Molly Brant, Catharine Brant, and Their
Daughters: A Study in Colonial Acculturation." Ontario History. Vol.
LXXXI, No. 3.

Graymont, Barbara. "KOÑWATSI'TSIAIÉÑNI, Mary Brant." Dictionary of
Canadian Biography.



If she was truly indentured, that usually implies that she herself was
an immigrant, but it seems more likely that she was just a house
servant, not indentured, and the daughter of an immigrant German Mohawk
Valley farmer from the Palatinate. Hank Z. Jones has done a lot of
genealogical work on the Mohawk Valley Palatine immigrants.

taf

Vickie Elam White

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 29 sep 2005 21:01:48

I searched both of Henry Z. Jones' books,
__ The Palentine Families of New York 1710__
and __ More Palatine Families __ but found
nothing on Catherine Weissenberg.

I don't work on my Palatine lines very often,
but I will keep my eyes open for her.

Vickie Elam White


"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:433c36fd@news.ColoState.EDU...
Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:10:33 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:


Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in
1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk

River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married
Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three
children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.


See
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=36096

However, there is no Wissenbergh or similar name in Montreal at that
time. This is probably another town. Montreal was taken by the
English only in 1760. In the DCB page, Catherine (not Mary) is
said to be from New York City (Manhattan ?).


The whole Montreal connectionn seems to be an unwarrented assumption by
Burkes, but I have my doubts about the NYC connection as well.


THE CATARAQUI ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESEARCH FOUNDATION web site reports:

"William Johnson had previously co-habited with a German woman named
Catherine Weissenberg. Although he had hired her as a housekeeper at
Fort Johnson, they had three children: Nancy, Mary (Polly), and John
were all christened at Fort Hunter, under Weissenberg's name only.
Although Johnson regarded Weissenberg, who had been an indentured
servant, as beneath his social status, he did regard these three
children as legitimate offspring (Green, 1989:237). Catherine
Weissenberg died in 1759 (Graymont, 1979:417) the same year that Molly
gave birth to her and Sir William's first child."

http://www.carf.info/kingstonpast/mollybrant.php

The sources cited here are:

Green, Gretchen, 1989. "Molly Brant, Catharine Brant, and Their
Daughters: A Study in Colonial Acculturation." Ontario History. Vol.
LXXXI, No. 3.

Graymont, Barbara. "KOÑWATSI'TSIAIÉÑNI, Mary Brant." Dictionary of
Canadian Biography.



If she was truly indentured, that usually implies that she herself was
an immigrant, but it seems more likely that she was just a house
servant, not indentured, and the daughter of an immigrant German Mohawk
Valley farmer from the Palatinate. Hank Z. Jones has done a lot of
genealogical work on the Mohawk Valley Palatine immigrants.

taf

Diane Sheppard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 29 sep 2005 23:28:32

Dear Leo, John, Denis, Todd & Vickie:

Following are some brief details regarding Sir William Johnson's
children.
Sources named below and identified by number in ()
1. "The Papers of Sir William Johnson" available from Ancestry.com's
Family and Local History Collection
2. "Joseph Brant 1743-1807 Man of Two Worlds" by Isabel Thompson Kelsay

Natural children born before 1759 and named in Johnson's will:
Brant Kagneghtago (2, p. 68)
William Tagawirunta, referred to as William of Canajoharie (2. p. 68).
William was the son of Caroline (daughter of Abraham and Niece of
Hendrik (Mohawk chiefs) (1. volume 8, 1190)

Children by Catherine Weisenberg. Sources: (2 p. 68, provides dates of
birth); (1. volume 1, pp. xxxvi - xxxviii )(provides genealogy of his
children by Catherine)
She is referred to as German servant girl who had worked and lived in
the Johnson household for several years. According to tradition, she
died of tuberculosis in April 1759. Tradition also stares that Sir
William married her on her deathbed or towards the end of her life, by
a German minister. (2, p. 68)

1. Ann (b 1740) married Colonel Daniel Claus. She died about 1798. He
died at King's Castle, Cardiff in November 1787.
2. John (b 1742) married Mary Watts, daughter of John Watts and Anne de
Lancey. Anne was the sister of Sir Peter Warren's wife. Peter Warren
was Sir William Johnson's uncle and patron. Mary was born October 29,
1753 and died August 7, 1815. John died January 4, 1830 at St. Mary's,
Montreal.
3. Mary (b. 1744) married Colonel Guy Johnson (possibly Sir William's
nephew - son of his brother, John, who had seven sons). Mary died at
Oswego on July 11, 1775. Guy died March 1788. Guy's biograhy can be
found at in the Dictionary of Canadian Biography:
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp? ... %20johnson.
Mary and Guy had two daughters, Julia and Mary Johnson who married Lt.
General Colin Campbell. Mary Johnson's and Colin Campbell's son was
Sir Guy Campbell, baronet.

Mary or Molly (Degonwawadonti) Brant stated in 1783 that she was 47,
thus she was born in 1736. (2, p. 40). Mary may have been working for
Johnson at the time of Catherine's death. Their first child, Peter,
was born in October, 1759 (2, pp. 68-69)

Molly and Sir William's children were named in his will (1, vol 12, pp.
1068-1070). Unfortunately no details re their marriages are given.
Brant's biography (2, p. 366 states only that one daughter remained
unmarried, the other daughters "married respectable white men." The
only surving son (not named) married a Native American. Brant's
biography also states that all of their children were well educated and
had substanital Loyalist claims.

Molly and Sir William's children as listed in his will (possibly in
their order of birth.
Peter, Elizabeth, Magdalene, Margaret, George, Mary, Susanna, & Anne.

Hope this is helpful,
Diane Sheppard

Henry Soszynski

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Henry Soszynski » 29 sep 2005 23:37:44

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:10:33 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in 1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 105 gives a more detailed account. Mary (not Frances) de Wissenbergh's father John was said to be a German settler, they had three children, not named, and she died shortly after 1742. "He is said" to have married (on her deathbed) a young Dutch woman , by whom he had many children (also none named). Then a footnote after this second (unnamed) wife died he had as mistress Molly Brandt, sister of the famous War Chief of the Mohawks, and they had eight children.

In one record I have seen that daughter Mary is marked off as a daughter of this Molly Brandt, and can anyone confirm this? William Addams Reitwiesner supplied the details that she was born in 1740 Fort Johnson, New York and baptised 14 October 1744. This would make Mary older than Anne, if both are born legitimately.

Sadly, no details are given as to when this second "marriage" took place or when the affaire with Molly Brandt started. This Mary is an ancestor of the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Wemyss, Lord Glenconner and the Duchess of Alba.

If anyone can add to this, that would be greatly appreciated.
Leo van de Pas

FWIW YMMV etc Just to complicate things....
Johnson never married, yet he had at least twenty children by about
eight different women. Many of these relationships were operated
simultaneously. In June 1739 William began a relationship with an
immigrant of German Palatine extraction, Catherine Wisenberg
(1723-April 1759). She originally came to America as an indentured
servant, but had ran away, apparently with the help of relatives, and
became a servant to a family called Phillips. William purchased her
contract, and the couple had three children before her death. Their
son John Johnson, inherited his father's title and estates.

By the time of Catherine's death he had already begun a similarly
unmarried relationship with Elizabeth Brant, by whom he had three
children, Keghneghtago or Brant, born in 1742; Thomas and Christian,
born in 1744 and 1745, both of whom died in infancy. About 1750 he had
a son called Tagawirunta or William by a Mohawk woman, possibly
Elizabeth Brant's younger sister, Margaret. By Molly Brant, sister of
Joseph Brant he had eight children and by Caroline Peters, neice of
[[King Hendrick, about three. Johnson is also known to have being
intimate with the sisters Susannah and Elizabeth Wormwood, daughters
of Henry Wormwood; an Irish woman called Mary McGrath (by whom he
appears to have had a daughter, Mary) and several other Mohawk women.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Henry

Diane Sheppard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 30 sep 2005 00:15:21

Dear Group,

Sir William's ancestry from "The Papers of Sir William Johnson, " vol
1, pp xxxiv-xxxv:
1. John O'Neill (said to have descended from the O'Neills of Dungannon)
2. Thomas McShane m Frances Fay, daughter of Thomas of Derrynagare
3. William McShane (Anglicized to William Johnson) m Anna daughter of
James FitzSimmons of Tullinally
4. Christopher (d 1763) m Anne (d. 1/20/1744), daughter of Michael
Warren of Warrenstown and sister of Vice Admiral, Sir Peter Warren, KB,
who backed William in North America.
5. Sir William, born in 1715

Hope this helps,

Diane Sheppard

Diane Sheppard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 30 sep 2005 00:31:08

Dear Leo,

Although questions have been raised about whether Sir William ever
married, his will (Johnson papers, vol 12, p. 1063) refers to Catherine
as "my beloved wife," perhaps that was enough to confer the title on
his son. In addition, although the Native Americans regarded Sir
William and Mary/Molly's relationship as a marriage, he refers to her
as his housekeeper in his will, but as each of their children is named
in the will fully acknowledges them as his children by Mary/Molly.

Diane Sheppard

Kristie Thompson

Re: Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Kristie Thompson » 30 sep 2005 00:44:02

I don't want to step on any toes here, but Henry having descendents is only
true is if we accept that Henry Carey was the son of Henry VIII. I have
doubts about this. First, Henry VIII raised Henry Fitzroy to the status of
royalty. I find it hard to believe he would ignore another son, especially
one born before Edward was. In addition, Henry usually fell quickly out of
love with his mistresses the moment they had a child (Bessie Blount comes to
mind) and Mary had already had Catherine in 1524. Also, most sources have
Henry in love with Anne by the time Mary bore Henry Carey.

I'd love to believe that Henry had another son. Certainly, there is the
circumstantial evidence to support both sides. For one thing, Carey's name.
Also, the fact that Anne was given guardianship of Carey might support his
having been a son of Henry VIII.
It is terribly fascinating and I do envy you - you are a descendent for sure
of the Boleyn's and maybe even old Harry himself!! If you email me off list,
I will tell you about a list on the Boleyns.

I would enjoy reading this article if someone could tell me where I could
find it!
Thanks,
Kristie
----- Original Message -----
From: <fairthorne@breathe.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Henry VIII descendants


Vicki Perry writes:

Hi,

I was following the posts about Henry VIII's offspring with interest.
Does
anybody know if there are any descendants of his illegitimate (or
alleged
illegitimate) children alive today?

Lots - including me

Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon
Robert Carey, 1st earl of Monmouth
Thomas Carey, second son
Elizabeth Carey married John Mordaunt, Viscount Mordaunt
Sophia Mordaunt married James Hamilton
Anne Catherine Hamilton married Michael Ward
Bernard Ward, 1st Viscount Bangor
Hon Robert Ward, third son
Anne Catherine Ward married John Goddard Richards of Ardamine, co Wexford
1793-1846

then a few more generations to me, which explains why I am grateful to
Tony
Hoskins for his article

Leo very kindly provided me with a massive list of descendents

cheers

Simon

______________________________

norenxaq

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 sep 2005 00:55:03

Following are some brief details regarding Sir William Johnson's
children.
Sources named below and identified by number in ()
1. "The Papers of Sir William Johnson" available from Ancestry.com's
Family and Local History Collection
2. "Joseph Brant 1743-1807 Man of Two Worlds" by Isabel Thompson Kelsay


hello:

what is William Johnson's ancestry?

thank-you

Leo van de Pas

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2005 01:10:02

Many thanks to all for all these fascinating details. One question emerges,
if Siw William 1st baronet never married, how come his title was given to a
son and has continued in existance?
I thought titles could only be given to children born within wedlock?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diane Sheppard" <bluecolumbine@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Dear Leo, John, Denis, Todd & Vickie:

Following are some brief details regarding Sir William Johnson's
children.
Sources named below and identified by number in ()
1. "The Papers of Sir William Johnson" available from Ancestry.com's
Family and Local History Collection
2. "Joseph Brant 1743-1807 Man of Two Worlds" by Isabel Thompson Kelsay

Natural children born before 1759 and named in Johnson's will:
Brant Kagneghtago (2, p. 68)
William Tagawirunta, referred to as William of Canajoharie (2. p. 68).
William was the son of Caroline (daughter of Abraham and Niece of
Hendrik (Mohawk chiefs) (1. volume 8, 1190)

Children by Catherine Weisenberg. Sources: (2 p. 68, provides dates of
birth); (1. volume 1, pp. xxxvi - xxxviii )(provides genealogy of his
children by Catherine)
She is referred to as German servant girl who had worked and lived in
the Johnson household for several years. According to tradition, she
died of tuberculosis in April 1759. Tradition also stares that Sir
William married her on her deathbed or towards the end of her life, by
a German minister. (2, p. 68)

1. Ann (b 1740) married Colonel Daniel Claus. She died about 1798. He
died at King's Castle, Cardiff in November 1787.
2. John (b 1742) married Mary Watts, daughter of John Watts and Anne de
Lancey. Anne was the sister of Sir Peter Warren's wife. Peter Warren
was Sir William Johnson's uncle and patron. Mary was born October 29,
1753 and died August 7, 1815. John died January 4, 1830 at St. Mary's,
Montreal.
3. Mary (b. 1744) married Colonel Guy Johnson (possibly Sir William's
nephew - son of his brother, John, who had seven sons). Mary died at
Oswego on July 11, 1775. Guy died March 1788. Guy's biograhy can be
found at in the Dictionary of Canadian Biography:
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp? ... %20johnson.
Mary and Guy had two daughters, Julia and Mary Johnson who married Lt.
General Colin Campbell. Mary Johnson's and Colin Campbell's son was
Sir Guy Campbell, baronet.

Mary or Molly (Degonwawadonti) Brant stated in 1783 that she was 47,
thus she was born in 1736. (2, p. 40). Mary may have been working for
Johnson at the time of Catherine's death. Their first child, Peter,
was born in October, 1759 (2, pp. 68-69)

Molly and Sir William's children were named in his will (1, vol 12, pp.
1068-1070). Unfortunately no details re their marriages are given.
Brant's biography (2, p. 366 states only that one daughter remained
unmarried, the other daughters "married respectable white men." The
only surving son (not named) married a Native American. Brant's
biography also states that all of their children were well educated and
had substanital Loyalist claims.

Molly and Sir William's children as listed in his will (possibly in
their order of birth.
Peter, Elizabeth, Magdalene, Margaret, George, Mary, Susanna, & Anne.

Hope this is helpful,
Diane Sheppard

Leo van de Pas

Re: Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2005 01:16:02

Dear Kirstie,
Don't forget John Perrott, he is a most likely son as well. I hope you can
get hold of the Tony Hoskins' article, it convinced me. Give me a little bit
of time and I will make a file with at least "some" of Henry VIII
descendants and they include the two Carey children.

One statement says : On 20 April 1535, John Hale, vicar of Isleworth, stated
to the Council that he had seen the nine-year-old Henry Carey, the king's
son. On 4 May 1535, just two weeks later, John Hale was executed at Tyburn
'for denying the King's supremacy'.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia





----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristie Thompson" <girlvol@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Henry VIII descendants


I don't want to step on any toes here, but Henry having descendents is only
true is if we accept that Henry Carey was the son of Henry VIII. I have
doubts about this. First, Henry VIII raised Henry Fitzroy to the status
of
royalty. I find it hard to believe he would ignore another son,
especially
one born before Edward was. In addition, Henry usually fell quickly out
of
love with his mistresses the moment they had a child (Bessie Blount comes
to
mind) and Mary had already had Catherine in 1524. Also, most sources have
Henry in love with Anne by the time Mary bore Henry Carey.

I'd love to believe that Henry had another son. Certainly, there is the
circumstantial evidence to support both sides. For one thing, Carey's
name.
Also, the fact that Anne was given guardianship of Carey might support his
having been a son of Henry VIII.
It is terribly fascinating and I do envy you - you are a descendent for
sure
of the Boleyn's and maybe even old Harry himself!! If you email me off
list,
I will tell you about a list on the Boleyns.

I would enjoy reading this article if someone could tell me where I could
find it!
Thanks,
Kristie
----- Original Message -----
From: <fairthorne@breathe.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Henry VIII descendants


Vicki Perry writes:

Hi,

I was following the posts about Henry VIII's offspring with interest.
Does
anybody know if there are any descendants of his illegitimate (or
alleged
illegitimate) children alive today?

Lots - including me

Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon
Robert Carey, 1st earl of Monmouth
Thomas Carey, second son
Elizabeth Carey married John Mordaunt, Viscount Mordaunt
Sophia Mordaunt married James Hamilton
Anne Catherine Hamilton married Michael Ward
Bernard Ward, 1st Viscount Bangor
Hon Robert Ward, third son
Anne Catherine Ward married John Goddard Richards of Ardamine, co Wexford
1793-1846

then a few more generations to me, which explains why I am grateful to
Tony
Hoskins for his article

Leo very kindly provided me with a massive list of descendents

cheers

Simon

______________________________


Leo van de Pas

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2005 01:55:01

Interesting, if that way they circumvented the legitimate aspect.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Diane Sheppard" <bluecolumbine@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Dear Leo,

Although questions have been raised about whether Sir William ever
married, his will (Johnson papers, vol 12, p. 1063) refers to Catherine
as "my beloved wife," perhaps that was enough to confer the title on
his son. In addition, although the Native Americans regarded Sir
William and Mary/Molly's relationship as a marriage, he refers to her
as his housekeeper in his will, but as each of their children is named
in the will fully acknowledges them as his children by Mary/Molly.

Diane Sheppard


Diane Sheppard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 30 sep 2005 02:09:11

Dear Leo

I have no idea if the will was used in this context. It would be
interesting to know whether any questions were raised about the
legitimacy of his children by Catherine when the title was inherited.
A footnote references Cokayne's "Complete Baronetage," vol 5, p. 105, a
reference which I do not have access to.

Diane

Leo van de Pas

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2005 05:16:02

There are five footnotes on that page :-)

a. see p.104 note b
This tells that much of the information was supplied by G. T. Burchall,
Office of Arms, Dublin, from a pedigree there registered. I find this a bit
confusing (nothing strange about that) because the reference in both cases
is given by the surname at the start of the articles. Page 104 is in regards
to Cavendish Baronets who later became Barons Waterpark.

b In the will of Warren Johnston , brother of the 1st Baronet (William
Johnson), pr. 1785, the name is spelled Johnston.

c. (William's father is a Christopher) The grandfather of this Christopher
is said to have been "Thomas, 1st s. of John O'Neill of Dungannon, in Irish
called MacShane (son of John) becoming in English John-son.

d. (about Mary de Wissenbergh) Dict. Nat. Bio The lady's name is often (but
apparently in error) given as "Frances".

e. He (Sir William) subsequently had no less than eight illegitimate
children by Molly Brandt, sister of the famous War Chief of the Mohawks.

Two remarks, de Wissenbergh, to me, sounds more Flemish or Dutch than
German. Being totally igmorant of Nothern American history "the famous War
Chief of the Mohawks" is it obvious to others who is being referred to?

Hope this helps a little.
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: "Diane Sheppard" <bluecolumbine@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Dear Leo

I have no idea if the will was used in this context. It would be
interesting to know whether any questions were raised about the
legitimacy of his children by Catherine when the title was inherited.
A footnote references Cokayne's "Complete Baronetage," vol 5, p. 105, a
reference which I do not have access to.

Diane


Gjest

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 sep 2005 07:24:43

I believe his name was KÜPEYAKWÜSKONAM

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 30 sep 2005 08:15:02

Who was this 'famous War Chief of the Mohawks'?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:10 AM
Subject: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in
1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk

River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married
Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three
children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 105 gives a more detailed account.
Mary (not Frances) de Wissenbergh's father John was said to be a German

settler, they had three children, not named, and she died shortly after
1742. "He is said" to have married (on her deathbed) a young Dutch woman ,
by whom he had many children (also none named). Then a footnote after this
second (unnamed) wife died he had as mistress Molly Brandt, sister of the
famous War Chief of the Mohawks, and they had eight children.
In one record I have seen that daughter Mary is marked off as a daughter
of this Molly Brandt, and can anyone confirm this? William Addams

Reitwiesner supplied the details that she was born in 1740 Fort Johnson, New
York and baptised 14 October 1744. This would make Mary older than Anne, if
both are born legitimately.
Sadly, no details are given as to when this second "marriage" took place
or when the affaire with Molly Brandt started. This Mary is an ancestor of

the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Wemyss, Lord Glenconner and the Duchess of
Alba.
If anyone can add to this, that would be greatly appreciated.
Leo van de Pas

Leo van de Pas

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2005 08:24:01

In a later message I asked the same question :-)
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; "Gen Medieval L"
<Gen-Medieval-L@RootsWeb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Who was this 'famous War Chief of the Mohawks'?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:10 AM
Subject: Canadian Red-Indian Question


Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1404 has Sir William Johnson, 1st Baronet, in
1738 he went to North America to manage his uncles estates on the Mohawk
River. In 1`755 he defeated the French at Lake George. In 1739 he married
Mary daughter of John de Wissenbergh, of Montreal, and they had three
children
Sir John 2nd Baronet
Anne who married Col. Daniel Clauss
Mary who married Col. Guy Johnstone
Sir William died 11 July 1774.

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 105 gives a more detailed account.
Mary (not Frances) de Wissenbergh's father John was said to be a German
settler, they had three children, not named, and she died shortly after
1742. "He is said" to have married (on her deathbed) a young Dutch woman ,
by whom he had many children (also none named). Then a footnote after this
second (unnamed) wife died he had as mistress Molly Brandt, sister of the
famous War Chief of the Mohawks, and they had eight children.

In one record I have seen that daughter Mary is marked off as a daughter
of this Molly Brandt, and can anyone confirm this? William Addams
Reitwiesner supplied the details that she was born in 1740 Fort Johnson,
New
York and baptised 14 October 1744. This would make Mary older than Anne,
if
both are born legitimately.

Sadly, no details are given as to when this second "marriage" took place
or when the affaire with Molly Brandt started. This Mary is an ancestor of
the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Wemyss, Lord Glenconner and the Duchess of
Alba.

If anyone can add to this, that would be greatly appreciated.
Leo van de Pas



Vicki Perry

Re: Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Vicki Perry » 30 sep 2005 10:32:02

Thanks for all the replies- it's fascinating! As well as a historian and an
archivist I'm a big reader of historical novels, which makes it very hard to
separate the fact from the fiction! I'd read somewhere that Mary Boleyn's
elder children's father was Henry the VIII, but didn't know how much
evidence there was to support it. I'll certainly try and find that article!
Thanks again
Vicki

ps I read a novel recently in which Elizabeth I had an illegitmate child- is
this complete fabrication or are there stories/rumours regarding this?

Brant Gibbard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Brant Gibbard » 30 sep 2005 12:08:42

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:13:30 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:

Who was this 'famous War Chief of the Mohawks'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brant

or

http://www.indians.org/welker/brant.htm

are just a couple of the biographies of him on the net.

Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON

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Diane Sheppard

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 30 sep 2005 13:12:10

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Snip:
"Being totally igmorant of Nothern American history "the famous War
Chief of the Mohawks" is it obvious to others who is being referred to?"

Dear Leo,


I cannot speak for others about their knowledge of Joseph Brant, but he
would be well known to those with more than a passing interest in the
French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War.

Following is a link to his biography in the Dictionary of Canadian
Biography online (a very well respected source):
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp? ... ND%20brant

Here's a link to their main page: http://www.biographi.ca/EN/index.html

Diane Sheppard

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 30 sep 2005 16:46:16

Leo van de Pas wrote:

Two remarks, de Wissenbergh, to me, sounds more Flemish or Dutch than
German.

Having done some American Palatine work, the name looks derivative - not
the original spelling of the name, but that which was given her by later
tradition or through Anglicization. The de Weissenberg of the site I
posted seems more likely.

Being totally igmorant of Nothern American history "the famous
War Chief of the Mohawks" is it obvious to others who is being referred to?

"Joseph Brandt" is perhaps the best known Native American leader of the
Revolutionary War era, a known collaborator of the Loyalist Johnsons.

taf

Ginny Wagner

RE: Henry VIII descendants

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 30 sep 2005 20:14:03

< I read a novel recently in which Elizabeth I had an
illegitmate child- is
this complete fabrication or are there stories/rumours
regarding this?>

Read _Golden Lads_ by du Maurier.

Ginny Wagner

Gjest

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2005 04:13:02

Dear Todd and others,
Joseph Brant was the son of Nickus Brant
whose father given the name Brant by the British in 1711 was at that time
considered one of the Mohawk nation`s principal chiefs.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 01 okt 2005 09:44:03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brant Gibbard" <bgibbard@ca.inter.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: Canadian Red-Indian Question


On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:13:30 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:

Who was this 'famous War Chief of the Mohawks'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brant

or

http://www.indians.org/welker/brant.htm

are just a couple of the biographies of him on the net.

Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----


Thank you, Brant

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