Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
While only partial identification (amidst much conjecture) attaches to
Rose, the wife of Robert Freville of Little Shelford (c1479-1521), next
to nothing is known about his mother, the wife of John Freville.
John was son and heir of William Freville the younger, who inherited
the Little Shelford estate circa 1461. William apparently attended
Peterhouse at Cambridge 1438/9, and is named in Sir James Ormonde's
'Indentures of war in France' at PRO C47/10/26/8, dated 19 Henry VI
(c1441); he was therefore probably born about 1420-22 - a date which
would accord with his own parents' known birthdates (William the elder
- circa 1398; Anne Wolferston - circa 1403). William married Joan,
daughter of Sir Thomas Charlton, MP (died 1445).
We do not have a birthdate for John, but we know that from his IPM that
his elder son, William, who predeceased him, married Ann Curson in
around 9 Henry VII (c1494) while his second son Robert was born circa
1479 and was himself probably married before 1500. I would therefore
guess John was born between 1440 and 1455.
There is one source which gives a connection that could identify his
marriage: Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Volume 2, p 623: the pedigree of
Maddison of Fonaby and Grimblethorpe.
This pedigree states that Richard Maddison of Unthank Hall, and his
wife Joan nee Hagthorpe, who is said to have died a widow circa 1463,
left three sons and an (?elder) daughter, Anne the wife of John
Freville.
No further identification is given in the pedigree, and I have been
unable to confirm its contents against, say, the 1562 Visitation of
Lincoln or Foster's 1887 edition of the Visitations of Durham.
Furthermore, the pedigree contains some apparent inconsistencies: e.g.
Anne's brother William is said to have fought at Agincourt but died in
1499; her great-nephew Sir Edward Maddison is said to have been born in
1453 (twenty years before his elder-line cousin who was heir to their
grandfather), married in 1529 and left issue, been knighted in 1533,
served as an MP until 1536, and died in 1554, a centenarian (leaving
one brother still living). Additionally, the one IPM it refers to that
I could check on - that of William Merley of Unthank from 1417 - was
not in the Calendar of IPMs for that period.
However, there are two points in favour of the identification:
(1) Robert Freville's two elder children were named John and Anne;
(2) according to Sir Wollaston Franks, there was a coat of arms at
Little Shelford (that he associated with Margaret Freville, mother of
William the elder) which he described thus:
"argent, a chevron between three martlets sable"
As noted in an earlier thread, Vol. 2 of the 'Dictionary of British
Arms: Mediaeval Ordinary' records these arms in connection with the
Argum, Ashthorpe, Bentley, Comberton, Corbett, Cryon, Eriom, MADESON,
Thomas and Trionlie families [my emphasis].
The arms of Maddison of Fonaby are said to be "argent, two battle axes
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant.
I have not tracked down the original reference to these Little Shelford
arms, presumably in Layer, but perhaps Franks was wrong in attributing
them to Margaret Freville.
The chronology for Anne Maddison from the Lincolnshire pedigree entry
is non-conclusive, but does not exclude a birthdate of 1440-1450.
Clearly, further enquiry is appropriate before any conclusions can be
drawn, but I thought listers might find the suggestion of interest.
MAR
Rose, the wife of Robert Freville of Little Shelford (c1479-1521), next
to nothing is known about his mother, the wife of John Freville.
John was son and heir of William Freville the younger, who inherited
the Little Shelford estate circa 1461. William apparently attended
Peterhouse at Cambridge 1438/9, and is named in Sir James Ormonde's
'Indentures of war in France' at PRO C47/10/26/8, dated 19 Henry VI
(c1441); he was therefore probably born about 1420-22 - a date which
would accord with his own parents' known birthdates (William the elder
- circa 1398; Anne Wolferston - circa 1403). William married Joan,
daughter of Sir Thomas Charlton, MP (died 1445).
We do not have a birthdate for John, but we know that from his IPM that
his elder son, William, who predeceased him, married Ann Curson in
around 9 Henry VII (c1494) while his second son Robert was born circa
1479 and was himself probably married before 1500. I would therefore
guess John was born between 1440 and 1455.
There is one source which gives a connection that could identify his
marriage: Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Volume 2, p 623: the pedigree of
Maddison of Fonaby and Grimblethorpe.
This pedigree states that Richard Maddison of Unthank Hall, and his
wife Joan nee Hagthorpe, who is said to have died a widow circa 1463,
left three sons and an (?elder) daughter, Anne the wife of John
Freville.
No further identification is given in the pedigree, and I have been
unable to confirm its contents against, say, the 1562 Visitation of
Lincoln or Foster's 1887 edition of the Visitations of Durham.
Furthermore, the pedigree contains some apparent inconsistencies: e.g.
Anne's brother William is said to have fought at Agincourt but died in
1499; her great-nephew Sir Edward Maddison is said to have been born in
1453 (twenty years before his elder-line cousin who was heir to their
grandfather), married in 1529 and left issue, been knighted in 1533,
served as an MP until 1536, and died in 1554, a centenarian (leaving
one brother still living). Additionally, the one IPM it refers to that
I could check on - that of William Merley of Unthank from 1417 - was
not in the Calendar of IPMs for that period.
However, there are two points in favour of the identification:
(1) Robert Freville's two elder children were named John and Anne;
(2) according to Sir Wollaston Franks, there was a coat of arms at
Little Shelford (that he associated with Margaret Freville, mother of
William the elder) which he described thus:
"argent, a chevron between three martlets sable"
As noted in an earlier thread, Vol. 2 of the 'Dictionary of British
Arms: Mediaeval Ordinary' records these arms in connection with the
Argum, Ashthorpe, Bentley, Comberton, Corbett, Cryon, Eriom, MADESON,
Thomas and Trionlie families [my emphasis].
The arms of Maddison of Fonaby are said to be "argent, two battle axes
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant.
I have not tracked down the original reference to these Little Shelford
arms, presumably in Layer, but perhaps Franks was wrong in attributing
them to Margaret Freville.
The chronology for Anne Maddison from the Lincolnshire pedigree entry
is non-conclusive, but does not exclude a birthdate of 1440-1450.
Clearly, further enquiry is appropriate before any conclusions can be
drawn, but I thought listers might find the suggestion of interest.
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
"The arms of Maddison of Fonaby are said to be "argent, two battle axes
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant."
According to the following from A2A, the Maddison arms appear to have
been granted as late as 1587:
Dixon Papers: Lincolnshire Archives
item: [no title] - ref. 1 DIXON 21/4/2/77 - date: 1587
[from Scope and Content] Facsimile of a grant of arms to
Edward Maddison, of Fonaby
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant."
According to the following from A2A, the Maddison arms appear to have
been granted as late as 1587:
Dixon Papers: Lincolnshire Archives
item: [no title] - ref. 1 DIXON 21/4/2/77 - date: 1587
[from Scope and Content] Facsimile of a grant of arms to
Edward Maddison, of Fonaby
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
In message of 28 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
This looks like it is confirmed by this entry in Foster's "Grants of
Arms ot the End of the XVII century":
"Madyson, Edmund, of Hunaby, co. Linc. ... 1587, by Cooke. Harl. MSS.
1859, fo. 107 and 1422, fo 93b; Add. MS 4966, fo. 69."
I have seen a one or two grants of those time where people merely
changed there arms to a design that they found more pleasing.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
"The arms of Maddison of Fonaby are said to be "argent, two battle axes
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant."
According to the following from A2A, the Maddison arms appear to have
been granted as late as 1587:
Dixon Papers: Lincolnshire Archives
item: [no title] - ref. 1 DIXON 21/4/2/77 - date: 1587
[from Scope and Content] Facsimile of a grant of arms to
Edward Maddison, of Fonaby
This looks like it is confirmed by this entry in Foster's "Grants of
Arms ot the End of the XVII century":
"Madyson, Edmund, of Hunaby, co. Linc. ... 1587, by Cooke. Harl. MSS.
1859, fo. 107 and 1422, fo 93b; Add. MS 4966, fo. 69."
I have seen a one or two grants of those time where people merely
changed there arms to a design that they found more pleasing.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
In message of 28 Sep, Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
Buy the chap a rattle! And put a spelling checker inside it.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In message of 28 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
"The arms of Maddison of Fonaby are said to be "argent, two battle axes
in saltire sable" [Maddison] quartering "argent, on a chevron between
three martlets sable, as many mullets or [Merley]". Additionally, the
text notes that the Merley quartering was formerly borne in preference
to that of Maddison, with a suggestion that the arms of Maddison (arg.
2 battle axes in saltire sa) were a subsequent grant."
According to the following from A2A, the Maddison arms appear to have
been granted as late as 1587:
Dixon Papers: Lincolnshire Archives
item: [no title] - ref. 1 DIXON 21/4/2/77 - date: 1587
[from Scope and Content] Facsimile of a grant of arms to
Edward Maddison, of Fonaby
This looks like it is confirmed by this entry in Foster's "Grants of
Arms ot the End of the XVII century":
"Madyson, Edmund, of Hunaby, co. Linc. ... 1587, by Cooke. Harl. MSS.
1859, fo. 107 and 1422, fo 93b; Add. MS 4966, fo. 69."
I have seen a one or two grants of those time where people merely
changed there arms to a design that they found more pleasing.
____________^
Buy the chap a rattle! And put a spelling checker inside it.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Thanks for the useful pointer Tim.
amend their arms - I seem to recall in relation to their peculiar
quartering method - so perhaps this was what happened in 1587.
Cheers
Michael
From the source above, I seem to recall that there was a statement to
the effect that, at some point, the Maddisons obtained authorisation to
amend their arms - I seem to recall in relation to their peculiar
quartering method - so perhaps this was what happened in 1587.
Cheers
Michael
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
In message of 28 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Quartering was not then, or is now, part of an individual's personal
arms, unless (and this is a more modern fashion) some quarters have been
combined impartibly into one coat. If you have an impartibly quartered
coat, it cannot be taken apart, full stop. (Unless you choose to
ignore the rules of the game or, of course, live in countries where
there are no rules at all.)
Quartering is done to indicate the heiresses whose arms have been
inherited. You can put as many or as few of your quartered arms into a
display, or achievement as it is more usually known, as you want. You
can change the quarters displayed without any grant of arms as long as
you maintain the (somewhat complicated) rules of the order of the
quarters - and, I believe, show all the quarters that lead to each
ancient one that you display.
So I doubt the grant was about any quartering.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
From the source above, I seem to recall that there was a statement to
the effect that, at some point, the Maddisons obtained authorisation to
amend their arms - I seem to recall in relation to their peculiar
quartering method - so perhaps this was what happened in 1587.
Quartering was not then, or is now, part of an individual's personal
arms, unless (and this is a more modern fashion) some quarters have been
combined impartibly into one coat. If you have an impartibly quartered
coat, it cannot be taken apart, full stop. (Unless you choose to
ignore the rules of the game or, of course, live in countries where
there are no rules at all.)
Quartering is done to indicate the heiresses whose arms have been
inherited. You can put as many or as few of your quartered arms into a
display, or achievement as it is more usually known, as you want. You
can change the quarters displayed without any grant of arms as long as
you maintain the (somewhat complicated) rules of the order of the
quarters - and, I believe, show all the quarters that lead to each
ancient one that you display.
So I doubt the grant was about any quartering.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Indeed - thanks Tim.
However, the arms posited on the Maddison pedigree do not appear to
obey the rules per se, given that Merley is quartered without any
reference to the intermediate family [unnamed] through whom the
representation passed to the Maddisons.
Furthermore, the pedigree alleges that Merley was not originally borne
2 & 3 in an arrangement of four, and that this 'arrangement' was
altered by the authority of some King of Arms named in the text, but
which I did not note and cannot remember.
I will have another look and jot down the details, but have no great
confidence in it, due to the other deficiencies I have already noted.
All in all, it is a very confused item!
However, the arms posited on the Maddison pedigree do not appear to
obey the rules per se, given that Merley is quartered without any
reference to the intermediate family [unnamed] through whom the
representation passed to the Maddisons.
Furthermore, the pedigree alleges that Merley was not originally borne
2 & 3 in an arrangement of four, and that this 'arrangement' was
altered by the authority of some King of Arms named in the text, but
which I did not note and cannot remember.
I will have another look and jot down the details, but have no great
confidence in it, due to the other deficiencies I have already noted.
All in all, it is a very confused item!
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Surtees Society, Vol. 41 entitled "Tonge's Visitation of the Northern
Counties 1530", contains the following relevant items:
(1) p xvii "Elizabethan Roll of Northern Heraldry: Peter Maddyson of
Unthank, gentleman: argent, a chevron engrailed (sic) between three
martlets sable"
(2) p l: "Sir William Neve, Norroy: 5 June 1635: Upon the view and
serious perusal of divers bookes and records remaining in the Office of
Armes... I do find Sir Lyonell Maddison of Newcastle upon Tyne to be...
sonne and heire of Henry Maddison of Newcastle, who was the son and
heir of Lyonell Maddison, Alderman of Newcastle, who was the second son
of Rowland Maddison of Unthanck in the Bishopprick of Durham, who was
the son and heir of Lyonell Maddison, who was son and heir of Alexander
Maddison, who was son and heir of William Maddison, who was son and
heir of Richard Maddison, who was son and heir of William Maddison of
Ellergill and Joan his wife, the daughter (sic) and heir of William
Morlay of Unthank, Esquire. And forasmuch as the said family, since
the marriage of the said daughter and heir of Morley, have left off to
beare there auncient apaternall armes in the first quarter and have in
place thereof borne those of Morlay, the which Sir Lyonall... being now
desirous that the same may be reduced unto their auncient right... I
therefore attest that the said Sir Lyonell Maddison and the rest
aforesaid of the same familly may resume and beare there paternal arms,
being Argent two battle-axes in saltire sable, in the first quarter,
and thereto to quarter the armes of Merlay, which, as hath appeared
unto me (by a very auncient seale sicumscribed thus: Sir Wm da Marlay,
and by other evident proof) are Argent a cheveron sable, charged with a
mullett or, between three martlets of the second."
[Norroy also took the opportunity to grant Sir Lionel a crest]
**************
Looking back at Sir Wollaston Franks' original Freville paper of 1847,
he writes in relation to the Maddison/Merley arms:
(p 27) "Sir Richard St George records this inscription in one of the
windows [in the chanting (sic) chapel on the south side of the nave (at
Little Shelford)]:
'Orate p' a..us Thome de Frevill et Margarete consortis sue'
"with this coat of arms: Freville imp. ar. a chevron between three
martlets sa."
Without having seen Sir Richard's original notes (perhaps they are
still extant?) I am unable to be sure, but it seems to me that it is
more likely these arms belong to the wife of John Freville than to his
great grandmother.
MAR
Counties 1530", contains the following relevant items:
(1) p xvii "Elizabethan Roll of Northern Heraldry: Peter Maddyson of
Unthank, gentleman: argent, a chevron engrailed (sic) between three
martlets sable"
(2) p l: "Sir William Neve, Norroy: 5 June 1635: Upon the view and
serious perusal of divers bookes and records remaining in the Office of
Armes... I do find Sir Lyonell Maddison of Newcastle upon Tyne to be...
sonne and heire of Henry Maddison of Newcastle, who was the son and
heir of Lyonell Maddison, Alderman of Newcastle, who was the second son
of Rowland Maddison of Unthanck in the Bishopprick of Durham, who was
the son and heir of Lyonell Maddison, who was son and heir of Alexander
Maddison, who was son and heir of William Maddison, who was son and
heir of Richard Maddison, who was son and heir of William Maddison of
Ellergill and Joan his wife, the daughter (sic) and heir of William
Morlay of Unthank, Esquire. And forasmuch as the said family, since
the marriage of the said daughter and heir of Morley, have left off to
beare there auncient apaternall armes in the first quarter and have in
place thereof borne those of Morlay, the which Sir Lyonall... being now
desirous that the same may be reduced unto their auncient right... I
therefore attest that the said Sir Lyonell Maddison and the rest
aforesaid of the same familly may resume and beare there paternal arms,
being Argent two battle-axes in saltire sable, in the first quarter,
and thereto to quarter the armes of Merlay, which, as hath appeared
unto me (by a very auncient seale sicumscribed thus: Sir Wm da Marlay,
and by other evident proof) are Argent a cheveron sable, charged with a
mullett or, between three martlets of the second."
[Norroy also took the opportunity to grant Sir Lionel a crest]
**************
Looking back at Sir Wollaston Franks' original Freville paper of 1847,
he writes in relation to the Maddison/Merley arms:
(p 27) "Sir Richard St George records this inscription in one of the
windows [in the chanting (sic) chapel on the south side of the nave (at
Little Shelford)]:
'Orate p' a..us Thome de Frevill et Margarete consortis sue'
"with this coat of arms: Freville imp. ar. a chevron between three
martlets sa."
Without having seen Sir Richard's original notes (perhaps they are
still extant?) I am unable to be sure, but it seems to me that it is
more likely these arms belong to the wife of John Freville than to his
great grandmother.
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
PS Sir Wollaston Franks' copy of a manuscript pedigree at the College
of Arms confirms that John Freville had three sons:
(1) William who married Ann Curson but died v.p. s.p.
(2) Robert who married Rose and succeeded to Little Shelford
(3) Richard, who lefts descendants settled in County Durham; his great
grandson was Sir George Freville of Hardwicke, died 1619, and his male
line became extinct in 1674, their patrimony then passing to Sir
George's great great grand-nephew, Freville Lambton, Esquire.
Anne Maddison's father, of course, was Richard Maddison of County
Durham.
of Arms confirms that John Freville had three sons:
(1) William who married Ann Curson but died v.p. s.p.
(2) Robert who married Rose and succeeded to Little Shelford
(3) Richard, who lefts descendants settled in County Durham; his great
grandson was Sir George Freville of Hardwicke, died 1619, and his male
line became extinct in 1674, their patrimony then passing to Sir
George's great great grand-nephew, Freville Lambton, Esquire.
Anne Maddison's father, of course, was Richard Maddison of County
Durham.
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
This could happen if the intermediate man had produced male issue by
another wife- an only daughter by the Merlay heiress would in turn be
the Merlay heiress, but not heiress of the intermediate family.
Likewise she would pass on the Merlay arms but not those of her father.
Not that I'm saying this is definitely the case here, it's just a
possible explanation.
Indeed - thanks Tim.
However, the arms posited on the Maddison pedigree do not appear to
obey the rules per se, given that Merley is quartered without any
reference to the intermediate family [unnamed] through whom the
representation passed to the Maddisons.
This could happen if the intermediate man had produced male issue by
another wife- an only daughter by the Merlay heiress would in turn be
the Merlay heiress, but not heiress of the intermediate family.
Likewise she would pass on the Merlay arms but not those of her father.
Not that I'm saying this is definitely the case here, it's just a
possible explanation.
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Many thanks, Matthew.
In such a case I believe the rule is (at least in modern heraldic law)
the father's arms would still be passed on, in a canton on the mother's
quartered coat. Having now seen Segar's note of 1635, it is not clear
whether there is an intermediate family or whether a Miss Merlay
married a Mr Maddison. I wish I could locate the purported 1417 IPM!
(I have been unable to check further alleged Merlay IPMs of 1393 and
1395 as the relevant volume of Cal. IPMs is missing from the British
Library shelves, and the SoG does not hold a copy.)
Regards
Michael
In such a case I believe the rule is (at least in modern heraldic law)
the father's arms would still be passed on, in a canton on the mother's
quartered coat. Having now seen Segar's note of 1635, it is not clear
whether there is an intermediate family or whether a Miss Merlay
married a Mr Maddison. I wish I could locate the purported 1417 IPM!
(I have been unable to check further alleged Merlay IPMs of 1393 and
1395 as the relevant volume of Cal. IPMs is missing from the British
Library shelves, and the SoG does not hold a copy.)
Regards
Michael
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Isn't there a second set of the Cal IPMs in the manuscript reading room at
the British Library?
Chris Phillips
(I have been unable to check further alleged Merlay IPMs of 1393 and
1395 as the relevant volume of Cal. IPMs is missing from the British
Library shelves, and the SoG does not hold a copy.)
Isn't there a second set of the Cal IPMs in the manuscript reading room at
the British Library?
Chris Phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
Thanks for the useful tip - I haven't exhausted Humanities One since
renewing my reader's ticket yet...
MAR
renewing my reader's ticket yet...
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Wife of John Freville of Little Shelford +1505
An item from the Calendar of Patent Rolls assists in identifying the
approximate marriage date for John Freville's parents, William Frevill
the younger and Joan Charlton:
"23 October 1437 at Westminster: Licence for 10 marks paid in the
hamper for William Frevyle the elder to grant to his son William
Frevyle the younger and Joan his wife, daughter of Thomas Charleton,
knight, and the heirs of the body of the said William Frevyle the
younger, a third part of the manor of Little Shelford, Co Cambridge,
with the advowson of the church of the said third part, held of the
King in chief".
approximate marriage date for John Freville's parents, William Frevill
the younger and Joan Charlton:
"23 October 1437 at Westminster: Licence for 10 marks paid in the
hamper for William Frevyle the elder to grant to his son William
Frevyle the younger and Joan his wife, daughter of Thomas Charleton,
knight, and the heirs of the body of the said William Frevyle the
younger, a third part of the manor of Little Shelford, Co Cambridge,
with the advowson of the church of the said third part, held of the
King in chief".