Robert Cheseman
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Robert Cheseman
Robert Cheseman lived from 1485 to 1547
That is all I know about him. Can anyone add any information?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
That is all I know about him. Can anyone add any information?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
-
Gjest
Re: Robert Cheseman
Falconer to Henry VIII.
"C142/80/121
Chancery. Inquisitions Post Mortem. Series II, and other Inquisitions,
Henry VII to Charles I
Inquisition by indenture taken at WestGreneWich in the county of Kent
on the 26th day of June in the 23rd year of the reign of King Henry
VIII (1531) in the presence of Robert Cheseman esquire escheator of the
said Lord King in the said county by virtue of his office upon the
oaths of John Swetsyr etc ..."
END QUOTE
hunt when his pole broke and he nearly drowned.
Very interesting information on the family can be found in RootsWeb
'Relatives of Robert and Pat Roberts" but no sources are offered.
Nevertheless it looks like a good research with details that can be
checked.
"....
Edward Cheesman [Cheseman] was a nobleman and a principal officer of
the royal household, serving as cofferer to Henry VII from 1485 to 1509
and served as the Lord of the Manors of Norwood and East Greenwich. He
was given sable and ermine to add to his coat of arms in the year 1510
by the king for his loyalty and service. Edward died the same year
(1510) and his son, Robert Cheseman was made Lord of Norwood Manor by
heir.
Robert married Lady Dacre and had issue. Their eldest son, John
Cheesman
carried on the Cheseman/Cheesman fortunes. Robert died in 1547 at
Norwood Manor and a monument erected at Norwood Chapel remain to this
day.
...."
Regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
"C142/80/121
Chancery. Inquisitions Post Mortem. Series II, and other Inquisitions,
Henry VII to Charles I
Inquisition by indenture taken at WestGreneWich in the county of Kent
on the 26th day of June in the 23rd year of the reign of King Henry
VIII (1531) in the presence of Robert Cheseman esquire escheator of the
said Lord King in the said county by virtue of his office upon the
oaths of John Swetsyr etc ..."
END QUOTE
From the web but without sources, he rescued Henry VIII when he was
vaulting over a water-filled ditch, pursuing one of his falcons at the
hunt when his pole broke and he nearly drowned.
Very interesting information on the family can be found in RootsWeb
'Relatives of Robert and Pat Roberts" but no sources are offered.
Nevertheless it looks like a good research with details that can be
checked.
"....
Edward Cheesman [Cheseman] was a nobleman and a principal officer of
the royal household, serving as cofferer to Henry VII from 1485 to 1509
and served as the Lord of the Manors of Norwood and East Greenwich. He
was given sable and ermine to add to his coat of arms in the year 1510
by the king for his loyalty and service. Edward died the same year
(1510) and his son, Robert Cheseman was made Lord of Norwood Manor by
heir.
Robert married Lady Dacre and had issue. Their eldest son, John
Cheesman
carried on the Cheseman/Cheesman fortunes. Robert died in 1547 at
Norwood Manor and a monument erected at Norwood Chapel remain to this
day.
...."
Regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Robert Cheseman
In message of 27 Sep, francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
I'm prepared to bet that story has got embellished over the years!
I don't think he was a nobleman. English practice is different from
continental Europe's. Only Peers are referred to as nobles. Not even
a Peer's wife or children are noble, though they may, just, be referred
to as of a noble family.
And as for everyone else, there are any number of defining names, none
can be adequately categorised as the English did not and do not have a
rigid class structure. (Knighthood is temporary role or honour and
does not indicate class or inheritance.)
If he was lord of a manor, in those days he owned the manor and was
"lord" of all therein, in other words he had some governing rights and
duties. It was not something that was ever referred to as "serving as
lord of the manor".
Are you sure? He may just have wished to change his arms and got crown
approval to do so. This can still be done through a device called a
Royal Licence, which is initialled by the sovereign - but arranged by a
herald.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Falconer to Henry VIII.
"C142/80/121
Chancery. Inquisitions Post Mortem. Series II, and other Inquisitions,
Henry VII to Charles I
Inquisition by indenture taken at WestGreneWich in the county of Kent
on the 26th day of June in the 23rd year of the reign of King Henry
VIII (1531) in the presence of Robert Cheseman esquire escheator of the
said Lord King in the said county by virtue of his office upon the
oaths of John Swetsyr etc ..."
END QUOTE
From the web but without sources, he rescued Henry VIII when he was
vaulting over a water-filled ditch, pursuing one of his falcons at the
hunt when his pole broke and he nearly drowned.
I'm prepared to bet that story has got embellished over the years!
Very interesting information on the family can be found in RootsWeb
'Relatives of Robert and Pat Roberts" but no sources are offered.
Nevertheless it looks like a good research with details that can be
checked.
"....
Edward Cheesman [Cheseman] was a nobleman
I don't think he was a nobleman. English practice is different from
continental Europe's. Only Peers are referred to as nobles. Not even
a Peer's wife or children are noble, though they may, just, be referred
to as of a noble family.
And as for everyone else, there are any number of defining names, none
can be adequately categorised as the English did not and do not have a
rigid class structure. (Knighthood is temporary role or honour and
does not indicate class or inheritance.)
and a principal officer of the royal household, serving as cofferer
to Henry VII from 1485 to 1509 and served as the Lord of the Manors
of Norwood and East Greenwich.
If he was lord of a manor, in those days he owned the manor and was
"lord" of all therein, in other words he had some governing rights and
duties. It was not something that was ever referred to as "serving as
lord of the manor".
He was given sable and ermine to add to his coat of arms in the year
1510 by the king for his loyalty and service.
Are you sure? He may just have wished to change his arms and got crown
approval to do so. This can still be done through a device called a
Royal Licence, which is initialled by the sovereign - but arranged by a
herald.
Edward died the same
year (1510) and his son, Robert Cheseman was made Lord of Norwood
Manor by heir.
Robert married Lady Dacre and had issue. Their eldest son, John
Cheesman
carried on the Cheseman/Cheesman fortunes. Robert died in 1547 at
Norwood Manor and a monument erected at Norwood Chapel remain to this
day.
..."
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Robert Cheseman
Dear Tim,
I am not acquainted with the intricacies of English social practice and
I was not endorsing what Robert and Pat Roberts - most probably
americans - wrote about their Cheesman/Cheseman ancestry.
Leo's question, I think, aroused from the oil painting of Hans Holbein
*Der Jüngere* one of his best. As it was unanswered for a while I have
decided to help and I have done it in the list and not in pvt to give
opportunity to knowlegeable people to pronounce themselves about it.
But I was thinking more of details:
To give sable and armine to an existing coat of arms was a normal
practice to reward services?
The Manors of Norwood and East Greenwich did exist in Middlesex? And
not hold by other family?
Does Norwood has a Chapel?
Could his father had held the office of cofferer from 1485 to the year
of Henry VII's death?
But if he was a noble - btw the Deed I mentioned clearly identifies him
as an esquire and even I know that an esquire is not a nobleman, and
that one doesn't *serve* as Lord of the Manor - or if the rescue curio
was probably embelished, seems to me just slightly beside the point.
Several other references to Robert Cheseman can be found in the Web,
mostly as legends to Holbein's portrait - e.g. "Robert Cheseman
(1485-1547) was an influential figure in Middlesex, where he was
responsible for marshalling levies. He more than once raised troops for
Henry VIII's campaigns. Along with other minor figures at court, many
of whom were to rise with the fortunes of Thomas Cromwell in the 1530s,
Cheseman was the sort of patron on whom Holbein concentrated during the
first few years of his second English sojourn. Such clients were less
in evidence once Henry and his royal entourage had adopted `the Apelles
of our time'." - but none had information about his family and that's
why I thought the Robert's information interesting.
Best regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
I am not acquainted with the intricacies of English social practice and
I was not endorsing what Robert and Pat Roberts - most probably
americans - wrote about their Cheesman/Cheseman ancestry.
Leo's question, I think, aroused from the oil painting of Hans Holbein
*Der Jüngere* one of his best. As it was unanswered for a while I have
decided to help and I have done it in the list and not in pvt to give
opportunity to knowlegeable people to pronounce themselves about it.
But I was thinking more of details:
To give sable and armine to an existing coat of arms was a normal
practice to reward services?
The Manors of Norwood and East Greenwich did exist in Middlesex? And
not hold by other family?
Does Norwood has a Chapel?
Could his father had held the office of cofferer from 1485 to the year
of Henry VII's death?
But if he was a noble - btw the Deed I mentioned clearly identifies him
as an esquire and even I know that an esquire is not a nobleman, and
that one doesn't *serve* as Lord of the Manor - or if the rescue curio
was probably embelished, seems to me just slightly beside the point.
Several other references to Robert Cheseman can be found in the Web,
mostly as legends to Holbein's portrait - e.g. "Robert Cheseman
(1485-1547) was an influential figure in Middlesex, where he was
responsible for marshalling levies. He more than once raised troops for
Henry VIII's campaigns. Along with other minor figures at court, many
of whom were to rise with the fortunes of Thomas Cromwell in the 1530s,
Cheseman was the sort of patron on whom Holbein concentrated during the
first few years of his second English sojourn. Such clients were less
in evidence once Henry and his royal entourage had adopted `the Apelles
of our time'." - but none had information about his family and that's
why I thought the Robert's information interesting.
Best regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Robert Cheseman
In message of 27 Sep, francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
Never heard of it!
The usual practice to provide a special reward for valour or services
is called an "Augmentation" to a person's normal arms. Usually the
augmentation is a charge, that is a device or shape, that is placed
somewhere on the arms and refers, obliquely perhaps, to the events
commemorated.
Sable and ermine on their own don't quite make sense as sable is black
and ermine is black spots on white.
I have referred to Woodcock and Robinson's "Oxford Guide to Heraldry",
Boutell's "Heraldry" and to Fox-Davies' "Complete Guide to Heraldry".
Moving on from augmentations to finding some Cheesman arms:
There is no entry for Cheeseman in the "Dictionary of British Arms,
Medieval Ordinary" but only the first two volumes of the four have been
published (and the last two will be a few years yet).
There is no-one in Fox-Davies' "Armorial Families" who even quartered a
Cheeseman (or Chesman, etc) coat.
Finally in Burke's "General Armory" there are three slightly different
coats of arms for different Cheesemans:
1. Per fesse embattled argent and sable three mullets counterchanged.
2. Per chevron embattled argent and sable, three mullets counterchanged
all within a bordure engrailed ermine.
3. Per fesse embattled argent and sable three mullets pierced
counterchanged.
One of these has a crest:
A dexter hand holding up a king's crown.
In none of the blazons is there any mention of an augmentation, let
alone some sable and ermine construction. Though the hand holding a
king's crown is obviously meat for urban myths.
As ever, Burke provides no references to the people who bore these arms.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
To give sable and armine to an existing coat of arms was a normal
practice to reward services?
Never heard of it!
The usual practice to provide a special reward for valour or services
is called an "Augmentation" to a person's normal arms. Usually the
augmentation is a charge, that is a device or shape, that is placed
somewhere on the arms and refers, obliquely perhaps, to the events
commemorated.
Sable and ermine on their own don't quite make sense as sable is black
and ermine is black spots on white.
I have referred to Woodcock and Robinson's "Oxford Guide to Heraldry",
Boutell's "Heraldry" and to Fox-Davies' "Complete Guide to Heraldry".
Moving on from augmentations to finding some Cheesman arms:
There is no entry for Cheeseman in the "Dictionary of British Arms,
Medieval Ordinary" but only the first two volumes of the four have been
published (and the last two will be a few years yet).
There is no-one in Fox-Davies' "Armorial Families" who even quartered a
Cheeseman (or Chesman, etc) coat.
Finally in Burke's "General Armory" there are three slightly different
coats of arms for different Cheesemans:
1. Per fesse embattled argent and sable three mullets counterchanged.
2. Per chevron embattled argent and sable, three mullets counterchanged
all within a bordure engrailed ermine.
3. Per fesse embattled argent and sable three mullets pierced
counterchanged.
One of these has a crest:
A dexter hand holding up a king's crown.
In none of the blazons is there any mention of an augmentation, let
alone some sable and ermine construction. Though the hand holding a
king's crown is obviously meat for urban myths.
As ever, Burke provides no references to the people who bore these arms.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Robert Cheseman
Dear Francisco,
You do amaze me
you realised exactly what was going on
I have a
copy of this portrait by Hans Holbein and in this painting Robert Cheseman
is holding a falcon.
You mention he married a Lady Dacre. Do you know any more about her? For her
to be Lady Dacre she is either the widow of a Lord Dacre or has a Dacre
title in her own right.
I looked through CP and cannot find a widowed Lady Dacre marrying Robert
Cheseman.
Nor a Baroness Dacre.
With many thanks.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: Robert Cheseman
You do amaze me
copy of this portrait by Hans Holbein and in this painting Robert Cheseman
is holding a falcon.
You mention he married a Lady Dacre. Do you know any more about her? For her
to be Lady Dacre she is either the widow of a Lord Dacre or has a Dacre
title in her own right.
I looked through CP and cannot find a widowed Lady Dacre marrying Robert
Cheseman.
Nor a Baroness Dacre.
With many thanks.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: Robert Cheseman
Dear Tim,
I am not acquainted with the intricacies of English social practice and
I was not endorsing what Robert and Pat Roberts - most probably
americans - wrote about their Cheesman/Cheseman ancestry.
Leo's question, I think, aroused from the oil painting of Hans Holbein
*Der Jüngere* one of his best. As it was unanswered for a while I have
decided to help and I have done it in the list and not in pvt to give
opportunity to knowlegeable people to pronounce themselves about it.
But I was thinking more of details:
To give sable and armine to an existing coat of arms was a normal
practice to reward services?
The Manors of Norwood and East Greenwich did exist in Middlesex? And
not hold by other family?
Does Norwood has a Chapel?
Could his father had held the office of cofferer from 1485 to the year
of Henry VII's death?
But if he was a noble - btw the Deed I mentioned clearly identifies him
as an esquire and even I know that an esquire is not a nobleman, and
that one doesn't *serve* as Lord of the Manor - or if the rescue curio
was probably embelished, seems to me just slightly beside the point.
Several other references to Robert Cheseman can be found in the Web,
mostly as legends to Holbein's portrait - e.g. "Robert Cheseman
(1485-1547) was an influential figure in Middlesex, where he was
responsible for marshalling levies. He more than once raised troops for
Henry VIII's campaigns. Along with other minor figures at court, many
of whom were to rise with the fortunes of Thomas Cromwell in the 1530s,
Cheseman was the sort of patron on whom Holbein concentrated during the
first few years of his second English sojourn. Such clients were less
in evidence once Henry and his royal entourage had adopted `the Apelles
of our time'." - but none had information about his family and that's
why I thought the Robert's information interesting.
Best regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Gjest
Re: Robert Cheseman
Dear Tim,
"Robert Peter Cheesman married Eleanor Smithson of York and had a son
whom they named John Cheesmant to honor the child's late grandfather,
except the letter "t" was added to the Cheesman surname.
John Cheesmant, Esquire, high sheriff of Davanner Park in 1811, and of
Penybont Hall in County Radnor, Wales, was a prominent barrister at law
of
the most Honorable Order of the Bath, and served in Parliament. He was
the son of Capt. John and Sarah Grace Chessment. John Chessment
married Mary Price, wealthy daughter of John Price of Davanner Park. To
impress his wife, John Chessment proved his direct lineage to Sir
Edward
Cheseman (died 1510), and applied for and was granted an additional
surname of Severn. Having proven his direct paternal ancestral lineage
to
Sir Edward Chesman, cofferer to King Henry VII, John Cheesment was
granted the ancient Cheesman escutcheon of Kent and Middlesex Counties
by royal license. His escutcheon was essentially the same as the
Cheesman
coat of arms except for slight modifications, namely lancer spear heads
were
added and illustrated as piercing each of the mullets. Also the three
mullets
were modified to appear scalloped. The ancient crest, featuring a
dexter
hand holding the royal crown was replaced with a white horse pierced in
the
breast by an arrow. The Cheesman escutcheon colors of Black, white and
silver remain and the family motto "Virtes Secura Sequetor" were not
changed."
The primitive Cheesman arms should have been Burke's no. 1 and the arms
granted to Edward C. (1510) Burke's no. 2, i.e. equal to no. 1 but with
sable and the ermine bordure.
It seems to me that the sable and ermine were what in Portugal is
called a "Difference" and not an "Aumengtation". This sort of color
change and/or add of a bordure was also quite common in Germany. But I
am no expert in heraldry.
The reward, I think, was just the grant of the arms.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
From the same Web Page of Robert and Pat Roberts, about descendents of
Robert Cheseman:
"Robert Peter Cheesman married Eleanor Smithson of York and had a son
whom they named John Cheesmant to honor the child's late grandfather,
except the letter "t" was added to the Cheesman surname.
John Cheesmant, Esquire, high sheriff of Davanner Park in 1811, and of
Penybont Hall in County Radnor, Wales, was a prominent barrister at law
of
the most Honorable Order of the Bath, and served in Parliament. He was
the son of Capt. John and Sarah Grace Chessment. John Chessment
married Mary Price, wealthy daughter of John Price of Davanner Park. To
impress his wife, John Chessment proved his direct lineage to Sir
Edward
Cheseman (died 1510), and applied for and was granted an additional
surname of Severn. Having proven his direct paternal ancestral lineage
to
Sir Edward Chesman, cofferer to King Henry VII, John Cheesment was
granted the ancient Cheesman escutcheon of Kent and Middlesex Counties
by royal license. His escutcheon was essentially the same as the
Cheesman
coat of arms except for slight modifications, namely lancer spear heads
were
added and illustrated as piercing each of the mullets. Also the three
mullets
were modified to appear scalloped. The ancient crest, featuring a
dexter
hand holding the royal crown was replaced with a white horse pierced in
the
breast by an arrow. The Cheesman escutcheon colors of Black, white and
silver remain and the family motto "Virtes Secura Sequetor" were not
changed."
The primitive Cheesman arms should have been Burke's no. 1 and the arms
granted to Edward C. (1510) Burke's no. 2, i.e. equal to no. 1 but with
sable and the ermine bordure.
It seems to me that the sable and ermine were what in Portugal is
called a "Difference" and not an "Aumengtation". This sort of color
change and/or add of a bordure was also quite common in Germany. But I
am no expert in heraldry.
The reward, I think, was just the grant of the arms.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Robert Cheseman
In message of 28 Sep, francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
White is not normally a heraldic colour. Silver is normally shown as
white. Black and silver, that is sable and argent, are not "Cheesman
colous", many arms have them.
I would add a caution to this internet extract. I have some cousins
named Greenwood; they come (as I therefore also do in part) from a
family based in the Bucks and Oxfordshire area. Yet one of these
cousins has fairly recently been granted some arms which are clearly
based on the completely unrelated Greenwoods of Yorkshire, though with
one or two decorative additions to make the design different and unique.
I have seen this on grants of English arms beforehand, that the heralds
will use as a base design the arms of a completely separate family of
the same name.
Anyhow the above grant is in Foster's "Grants of Arms", pub Harleian
1915, p. 75:
"Cheesment, John, of Christ Ch., Oxf., 180. , Vol XXII, fol 165 (See
SEVERN?)"
And for Severn in that volume, we have merely:
"SEVERN, . . . , of Sudbury, Derby, [1788] Vol XVII, fo. 97"
The Volume and folio references in both of these are to the records of
the College of Arms.
How do we know they were granted? I have the Harleian book "Grants of
Arms to the end of the XVII Century", pub 1915, which, while known not
to be complete, does not have any Cheeseman grant in it. Though it does
have an Edward Johnson:
"JOHNSON, Edward, Tunbridge, Kent, s. of James, of Lewisham, Kent, and
of Joan his wife, d. and h. of Rob. Cheeseman, who mar. the daur. and
heir of Woodhall and Yaxley; 10 May 1570 by E. Cooke, Clar. Stowe MS
670, fo 60b; Add MS 14297, fo 69b"
I have no idea if this is the same Robert Cheeseman that you are
referring to, but this one had no surviving sons.
Differences in England were, and are, classically labels and crescents.
Borders are used to show differences also in Scotland.
And grants of arms were made also to anyone who could show adequate
property qualification; this included merchants in the bigger towns.
Further in those times, those who acquired property would assume arms
and then have them recognised in later visitations (as it appears a
16th century ancestor of mine managed); no grant was made.
However I have followed up your reference to Kent and have found an
entry in Hasted's "History of Kent", pub Bristow, 1797, Vol I, pp.
479-480:
"... certain tenements, late Leghs, in Modingham and Chislehurst ...
These premises, in the 24th year of king Henry VI. were in the
possession of Robert Cheeseman of Lewisham and East Greenwich, who, by
his marriage with Joane, daugher of Bernard Cavell of Chesilhurst, had
considerably increased his prosperity in this place. ... The last of
the Cheesemans, who held this estate, was Thomas Cheeseman, whose
heir, Alice, carried it in marriage to Robert Stoddard ..."
No idea if there is any connection of course.
The 1530-92 Kent Visitations have no mention (in the indexes) of any
Cheesman armigers.
The London (i.e. Middlesex as well) 1568 Visitation, p. 27, has a
marriage of "William Stoddard of London, gent = Emma, da.---- Cheeseman".
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
From the same Web Page of Robert and Pat Roberts, about descendents of
Robert Cheseman:
"Robert Peter Cheesman married Eleanor Smithson of York and had a son
whom they named John Cheesmant to honor the child's late grandfather,
except the letter "t" was added to the Cheesman surname.
John Cheesmant, Esquire, high sheriff of Davanner Park in 1811, and of
Penybont Hall in County Radnor, Wales, was a prominent barrister at
law of the most Honorable Order of the Bath, and served in
Parliament. He was the son of Capt. John and Sarah Grace Chessment.
John Chessment married Mary Price, wealthy daughter of John Price of
Davanner Park. To impress his wife, John Chessment proved his direct
lineage to Sir Edward Cheseman (died 1510), and applied for and was
granted an additional surname of Severn. Having proven his direct
paternal ancestral lineage to Sir Edward Chesman, cofferer to King
Henry VII, John Cheesment was granted the ancient Cheesman escutcheon
of Kent and Middlesex Counties by royal license. His escutcheon was
essentially the same as the Cheesman coat of arms except for slight
modifications, namely lancer spear heads were added and illustrated as
piercing each of the mullets. Also the three mullets were modified to
appear scalloped. The ancient crest, featuring a dexter hand holding the
royal crown was replaced with a white horse pierced in the breast by an
arrow. The Cheesman escutcheon colors of Black, white and silver
White is not normally a heraldic colour. Silver is normally shown as
white. Black and silver, that is sable and argent, are not "Cheesman
colous", many arms have them.
remain and the family motto "Virtes Secura Sequetor" were not changed."
I would add a caution to this internet extract. I have some cousins
named Greenwood; they come (as I therefore also do in part) from a
family based in the Bucks and Oxfordshire area. Yet one of these
cousins has fairly recently been granted some arms which are clearly
based on the completely unrelated Greenwoods of Yorkshire, though with
one or two decorative additions to make the design different and unique.
I have seen this on grants of English arms beforehand, that the heralds
will use as a base design the arms of a completely separate family of
the same name.
Anyhow the above grant is in Foster's "Grants of Arms", pub Harleian
1915, p. 75:
"Cheesment, John, of Christ Ch., Oxf., 180. , Vol XXII, fol 165 (See
SEVERN?)"
And for Severn in that volume, we have merely:
"SEVERN, . . . , of Sudbury, Derby, [1788] Vol XVII, fo. 97"
The Volume and folio references in both of these are to the records of
the College of Arms.
The primitive Cheesman arms should have been Burke's no. 1 and the
arms granted to Edward C. (1510)
How do we know they were granted? I have the Harleian book "Grants of
Arms to the end of the XVII Century", pub 1915, which, while known not
to be complete, does not have any Cheeseman grant in it. Though it does
have an Edward Johnson:
"JOHNSON, Edward, Tunbridge, Kent, s. of James, of Lewisham, Kent, and
of Joan his wife, d. and h. of Rob. Cheeseman, who mar. the daur. and
heir of Woodhall and Yaxley; 10 May 1570 by E. Cooke, Clar. Stowe MS
670, fo 60b; Add MS 14297, fo 69b"
I have no idea if this is the same Robert Cheeseman that you are
referring to, but this one had no surviving sons.
Burke's no. 2, i.e. equal to no. 1
but with sable and the ermine bordure. It seems to me that the sable
and ermine were what in Portugal is called a "Difference" and not an
"Aumengtation".
Differences in England were, and are, classically labels and crescents.
This sort of color change and/or add of a bordure was also quite common
in Germany.
Borders are used to show differences also in Scotland.
But I am no expert in heraldry. The reward, I think, was just the grant
of the arms.
And grants of arms were made also to anyone who could show adequate
property qualification; this included merchants in the bigger towns.
Further in those times, those who acquired property would assume arms
and then have them recognised in later visitations (as it appears a
16th century ancestor of mine managed); no grant was made.
However I have followed up your reference to Kent and have found an
entry in Hasted's "History of Kent", pub Bristow, 1797, Vol I, pp.
479-480:
"... certain tenements, late Leghs, in Modingham and Chislehurst ...
These premises, in the 24th year of king Henry VI. were in the
possession of Robert Cheeseman of Lewisham and East Greenwich, who, by
his marriage with Joane, daugher of Bernard Cavell of Chesilhurst, had
considerably increased his prosperity in this place. ... The last of
the Cheesemans, who held this estate, was Thomas Cheeseman, whose
heir, Alice, carried it in marriage to Robert Stoddard ..."
No idea if there is any connection of course.
The 1530-92 Kent Visitations have no mention (in the indexes) of any
Cheesman armigers.
The London (i.e. Middlesex as well) 1568 Visitation, p. 27, has a
marriage of "William Stoddard of London, gent = Emma, da.---- Cheeseman".
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Robert Cheseman
"... certain tenements, late Leghs, in Modingham and Chislehurst ...
These premises, in the 24th year of king Henry VI. were in the
possession of Robert Cheeseman of Lewisham and East Greenwich, who,
by
his marriage with Joane, daugher of Bernard Cavell of Chesilhurst,
had
considerably increased his prosperity in this place. ... The last of
the Cheesemans, who held this estate, was Thomas Cheeseman, whose
heir, Alice, carried it in marriage to Robert Stoddard ..."
No idea if there is any connection of course.
The connection to Robert Cheseman is not proved. But sounds most
probable by an onomastic analysis (Thomas, Robert) geographical (East
Greenwich) and heraldic coincidences.
Ralph (not Robert as I mistakenly wrote) Roberts certainly used your
above source in his site:
"During the reign of King Henry VI [1422-1461], Robert Chesman of
Lewisham and East Geenwich owned vast amount of acreage and estates in
Nottingham. These properties stayed in the Chesman family for
generations
passing from heir to heir. Robert Cheesman married Jeane Cavell, the
daughter of Bernard Cavell, Esquire. The couple's wealth was
tremendously
enlarged when they combined their huge estates and holdings .They were
finally passed to the Stoddard family by marriage. Alice Cheesman,
daughter
of Thomas Cheesman, married Robert Stoddard.
Their son, George Stoddard, began the construction of Nottingham Place
in
1560."
To me this closes the question.
Leo wanted some biographical details for Robert Cheseman and I found
such details in a personal database without sources. That had to be
verified.
By now we know that Ralph Roberts used sound sources for his notes on
the Cheesmans even if they are not his ancestors. And we can accept
that Robert was Lord of Norwood, *possibly* married a Lady Dacre and
his father served Henry VII as referred.
Not much more could be expected and I feel happy with the outcome.
Best regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Grammaticus
Re: Robert Cheseman
I think there's a herald at the moment called Cheeseman, isn't there?
You could try asking him (ho ho).
You could try asking him (ho ho).