Sir Robert Roos of Gedney (d. 1441) and his first wife, Joan

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Bevan Shortridge

Sir Robert Roos of Gedney (d. 1441) and his first wife, Joan

Legg inn av Bevan Shortridge » 26 sep 2005 09:10:02

Hello all,

There was mention last week about Joan Tilliol as the wife of Sir Robert Roos of Gedney (d. 1441).

There is evidence that Sir Robert Roos (d. 1441) had an earlier wife, also named Joan, and that his daughter Margaret (wife successively of John Wittlebury and Henry Greene) was a child of a first marriage to Joan Rochford, daughter of a Sir John Rochford, and through him a coheiress of the Hillary family.

VCH Staffordshire, Vol. XVII, p. 169-75 gives the descent of the manor of Walsall held by the Hillary family as follows:

In 1411 or 1412, however, the estates of the younger Sir Roger Hillary (d. 1400) were divided and Goscote was assigned to Robert and Joan Roos, Margery, widow of Frederick Tylney, and John Gibthorp. Joan and Margery were Hillary's great-nieces and John was their nephew. (Footnote 78) Later Goscote was apparently assigned to the Rooses and from 1423 presumably descended with Stretton on Fosse (Warws.) to Robert Whittlebury, who held it in 1498. Robert died in 1506, leaving the estate settled on his wife Anne for life; she, however, sold it in 1508 to Edmund Dudley. (Footnote 79)

Footnotes:
78 B.M. Harl. MS. 506, p. 332; S.H.C. xvii. 135; Lincs. Pedigrees, iii (Harl. Soc. iii), 829.
79 V.C.H. Warws. v. 154; E 150/1018 no. 1; Cal. Inq. p.m. Hen. VII, iii, p. 198; Cal. Close, 1500-9, p. 343.

From: 'Walsall: Manors', A History of the County of Staffordshire: Volume XVII: Offlow hundred (part) (1976), pp. 169-75. URL: <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=36191> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=36191.

VCH Warwickshire, Volume V., page 154, concurs with these relationships, as suggested:

(writing about Elizabeth, wife of Sir John de Clinton) Her interest in the manor was conveyed to Joan, eldest of the three daughters of Sir John Rochford, and Sir Robert Roos, her husband.(Footnote 18). Their elder daughter Margaret married first Thomas Pinchbeck and secondly John Wittlebury.(Footnote 19). Their son Robert Wittlebury died in 1507, leaving his Stretton estate to his wife Anne (sister of William Catesby) for life, after which it should be sold for the executing of his will.(Footnote 20).

Footnotes:
18 Cat. of Anct. D. iv, A. 7585, 8476
19 Dugd. 599.
20 Chan. Inq. p.m.(Ser. 2), xx, 143.

The information above would seem to match Cal. Inq. pms in Henry VI. It also adds another husband for Margaret Roos in Thomas Pinchbeck.
The IPMs concerned land held of the Hillarys and lay out the following relationships:

IPM of Alice Dorlaston, Staffordhsire Writ 12 October 1422:

"The kin and heirs of Roger Hillary, knight, are Elizabeth Lady de Clynton, daughter of Elizabeth, one of his daughters and heirs; Margery who was the wife of Fraticius Tylney and one of the daughters and heirs of John Rocheford, knight, son of Joan the other daughter and heir of Roger Hillary; Elizabeth Gibthorp, daughter of John son of Alice second daughter and heir of John Rocheford; and Margaret Roos, daughter of Joan, third daughter and heir of John Rocheford. Elizabeth Lady Clinton is aged 60 years, Margery 30 years, Elizabeth 1 1/2 years and Margaret 6 years."

The IPM of Elizabeth Widow of John de Clinton, Chevalier, includes a writ for Staffordshire 2 October 1423. This repeats the above relationships, but there Margaret Roos is "11 years and more".

Public Record Office.
Calendar of inquisitions post mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office. Prepared under the superintendence of the deputy keeper of the records.
London, Printed for H. M. Stationery Off. by Mackie and to be purchased from Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1904-<2004 >
(Volume XXII): 1-5 Henry VI 14227-1427.
IPMs no. 200 (page 206-207), no. 341 (page 311-312)

The VCH volumes both refer to Sir John Rochford (in passages not quoted above) as son of Joan de Hillary and Saer de Rochford. The IPMs make no mention of his father.

However, the son of Saer is apparently a different Sir John. Roskell's History of Parliament has a biography of a Sir John de Rochford of Boston which states:

"Lincs. Peds. ed. Maddison, 829, is mistaken in stating that Rochford's mother was Joan, da. and coh. of Sir Roger Hillary, for although she did have a son named John Rochford he cannot have been our MP. The latter was succeeded by Sir Ralph Rochford of Fenn in Boston (d. 1439/40), not by two young female descendants as was the case with Joan Hillary's son".
(J. S. Roskell, History of Parliament, House of Commons 1386-1421, Stroud [England] : Published for the History of Parliament Trust by Allan Sutton, 1992. Volume IV Members P-Z, p. 221).

There were apparently about three or four contemporaneous John Rochfords in Lincolnshire muddying the waters genealogically. Interestingly, in the MP's biography is the note (not referenced that I can see) that "in March 1403, he and his brother were rewarded with the keepership of the estates of Sir James Roos's younger son, Robert, who was then a royal ward."(ibid, p. 220)

Perhaps they decided to marry the young Robert off to a female relative?

Margaret being a child of the marriage to Joan Rochford might also explain the note in the Sir John Skelton biography in Roskell concerning the lawsuit of Eleanor Roos against Katherine Tilliol over her share of the Ireby lands.

The lawsuit began "by 1441" (Roskell Vol. IV, p. 380) but the biography does not mention Margaret as party to it, only Eleanor. This would make sense if Margaret was child of Joan de Rochford - she would not have a claim to the Ireby inheritance via Joan Tilliol. That Margaret was living in 1441 can be deduced from the fact that in 1452 she and her husband Henry Greene were holding a third of the manor of Gedney.(CP, Vol. II, Pt II, p. 736, footnote j).

Hope this is of interest.

Regards,
Bevan Shortridge

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