any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

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Paul K Davis

any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 26 sep 2005 08:14:02

I see on the internet three different claims of children for Roger de
Hauteville, co-ruler of Sicily with his father Tancred, and his wife Irene,
daughter of Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos, but I am unable to
substantiate any of them.

Irene was married to Roger in 1192, either in July or August, according the
the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Roger died 1193 Dec 24 according to
the same source. Irene was later married to Philip of Swabia in 1196 or
1197 (according to various sources). Thus any child of Roger and Irene
would have been born in the range from about 1193 April through about 1194
Sept.

The children I have seen ascribed are "Tancredi Palamara", "Aaron Fitz
Roger", and "William".

My reason for being interested is the implications for the birth year of
Irene. If she had a child by Roger, she must have been born by about 1181
at the very latest, whereas if she had no children by him, this could have
been a diplomatic childhood marriage, with Irene being a couple years
younger.

Any solid information known to anyone?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Paul K Davis

RE: any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 28 sep 2005 05:16:02

I should also ask, is there firm evidence of the birth dates of Irene's
children by Philip?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Paul K Davis <pkd-gm@earthlink.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 9/25/2005 11:11:32 PM
Subject: any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

I see on the internet three different claims of children for Roger de
Hauteville, co-ruler of Sicily with his father Tancred, and his wife
Irene,
daughter of Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos, but I am unable to
substantiate any of them.

Irene was married to Roger in 1192, either in July or August, according
the
the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Roger died 1193 Dec 24 according to
the same source. Irene was later married to Philip of Swabia in 1196 or
1197 (according to various sources). Thus any child of Roger and Irene
would have been born in the range from about 1193 April through about 1194
Sept.

The children I have seen ascribed are "Tancredi Palamara", "Aaron Fitz
Roger", and "William".

My reason for being interested is the implications for the birth year of
Irene. If she had a child by Roger, she must have been born by about 1181
at the very latest, whereas if she had no children by him, this could have
been a diplomatic childhood marriage, with Irene being a couple years
younger.

Any solid information known to anyone?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


CE Wood

Re: any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

Legg inn av CE Wood » 28 sep 2005 09:31:24

Please see Bill Marshall's extremely well documented website:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11334
et sequalae.

CE Wood


"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I should also ask, is there firm evidence of the birth dates of Irene's
children by Philip?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Paul K Davis <pkd-gm@earthlink.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 9/25/2005 11:11:32 PM
Subject: any children of Roger Hauteville and Irene Angelina

I see on the internet three different claims of children for Roger de
Hauteville, co-ruler of Sicily with his father Tancred, and his wife
Irene,
daughter of Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos, but I am unable to
substantiate any of them.

Irene was married to Roger in 1192, either in July or August, according
the
the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Roger died 1193 Dec 24 according to
the same source. Irene was later married to Philip of Swabia in 1196 or
1197 (according to various sources). Thus any child of Roger and Irene
would have been born in the range from about 1193 April through about 1194
Sept.

The children I have seen ascribed are "Tancredi Palamara", "Aaron Fitz
Roger", and "William".

My reason for being interested is the implications for the birth year of
Irene. If she had a child by Roger, she must have been born by about 1181
at the very latest, whereas if she had no children by him, this could have
been a diplomatic childhood marriage, with Irene being a couple years
younger.

Any solid information known to anyone?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


John P. Ravilious

Parentage of Simon, duke of Lorraine (was Re: any children o

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 28 sep 2005 12:13:04

Dear CEW, et al.,

Thanks for that note concerning Bill Marshall's website (URL
below).

While only having a brief look, I have not noted any use of
primary sources in the pedigrees I reviewed. I did note the following
problem: Simon, duke of Lorraine (d. 1138/9) is shown as the son of
Thierry/Diderick of Lorraine by his 2nd wife Gertrude of Flanders,
which would make his wife Adelheid/Adelaide of Brabant his half-sister
[1]. It is quite clear that Simon was the son of his father's first
marriage to Hedwig von Formbach. See Leo's website, Genealogics, under
the ID for Simon, duke of Lorraine (I00026284) [2]. There was also
some extended discussion on SGM earlier this year [3].

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] the problematic part of the pedigree can be viewed in a number of
ways; see the following:


http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I16933

[2] http://www.genealogics.org

[3] Leo van de Pas, Peter Stewart and others, <Thierry d'Alsace, Count
of Flanders>, SGM, Jan 2005.





CE Wood wrote:
Please see Bill Marshall's extremely well documented website:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11334
et sequalae.

CE Wood


"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I should also ask, is there firm evidence of the birth dates of Irene's
children by Philip?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Simon, duke of Lorraine (was Re: any childr

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 28 sep 2005 13:25:46

"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1127905984.373558.211010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Dear CEW, et al.,

Thanks for that note concerning Bill Marshall's website (URL
below).

While only having a brief look, I have not noted any use of
primary sources in the pedigrees I reviewed. I did note the following
problem: Simon, duke of Lorraine (d. 1138/9) is shown as the son of
Thierry/Diderick of Lorraine by his 2nd wife Gertrude of Flanders,
which would make his wife Adelheid/Adelaide of Brabant his half-sister
[1]. It is quite clear that Simon was the son of his father's first
marriage to Hedwig von Formbach. See Leo's website, Genealogics, under
the ID for Simon, duke of Lorraine (I00026284) [2]. There was also
some extended discussion on SGM earlier this year [3].

Indeed - and just in case anyone picks up on this earlier thread at a
confusing point, it should be added that I was wrong at the start about
Simon's mother, following a strange error of Georges Poull in the second
edition of his (otherwise mostly excellent) work on the ducal family of
Lorraine. Maybe Bill Marshall has taken it from Poull too, and has not
caught up with the SGM discussion of this point.

Peter Stewart

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