Thorp descent to Cranmer?

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Matthew Hovius

Thorp descent to Cranmer?

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 24 sep 2005 14:47:07

Can anyone help build up (or break down) this proposed lineage? This
draft uses some records from A2A and PROCAT to build on a pedigree
found in the Visitations of Nottinghamshire, eventually connecting to
the Cranmer family. The documents suggest descent from a Thorp family
with interests in both Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire. Perhaps there may
be something useful in 'Testamenta Eboracensis' or Thoroton's
'Nottinghamshire'?

***************

1. Sir John de Thorp, fl. ~1270. D. Bef. 1295. Married Elizabeth
______, d. aft 1295.

2. Richard de Thorp, son and heir of above. 'Eliz. widow of Sir John de
Thorp to Richard de Thorp, son and heir. All claims to dower in lands
etc. in Thorp, Neuwerk, Stokis and Binington, and acquittance for £10
and bond to spend it in building. Given at Neuwerke, Eve of Feast of
St. Thomas Apostle, 24 Edw. I.'[A] Referred to as Lord of Thorp in
1310: 'Sir Wm. de Galmethorp, chaplain, rector of Thorp next Newerk,
covenants not to lease rectory of T. from Easter 1311 except to Rich.
de Thorp, Lord of T., or with his consent.'[B] Described as 'Rich. de
Thorp next Stok.' in 1314-5 when he granted land at Newark to one
Richard le Neubakster.[C] Still alive in 1317, when he demised some
land in Stoke and Thorp, a demise witnessed by one Simon de Sibthorp,
who also occurs in other documents mentioned below. [D]

3. Stephen de Thorp. A Stephen de Thorp witnessed documents in
Yorkshire around 1310. [E], [F] Also mentioned posthumously in a 1348
grant of land made by one of his grandsons: 'John le Venour of Stoke by
Newark, Robert Moge, William son of William son of Stephen de Thorpe,
Simon de Sibthorpe, and Gilbert son of Lecia de Holme juxta Newerk to
grant land in Stoke and Holme to the master and brethren of the
hospital of St. Leonard at Stoke. 21 Edw III'[G]

4. Sir William de Thorp, son of the above. 'William de Landeford of
Flintham, William Freman of Bennington, Hugh Moweger of Stoke, Richard
le Fevre of Stoke, William son of Stephen de Thorp, and Simon de
Sibethorp to grant a messuage, land, and rent in Stoke to the same,
retaining messuages and land there.' 1334. [H] Married Margaret ______,
who died before 1350. 'Wm. de Thorp next Newerk, kt., to Sir John de
Fenton, chaplain. A messuage and land in T. and 34a. meadow in
Mereflete, Holderness (Yorks.); for daily services at altar of the Holy
Trinity in St. Lawrence's Church, Thorp, for souls of Sir William and
late wife Margaret, their children and others'.[I], [J]

5. Adam de Thorp. Married, before 1372, Katherine _______. 'Thos.
Symound, vicar of Thorp, John de Fenton, chaplain; to Adam, son of Wm.
de Thorp, and wife Katherine, in tail manor of Thorpe and appurtenances
there and in Stoke, Eyleston and Newerk.'[K] 'Adam de Thorp to make
sufficient estate to Henry Lescropp of lands in Yorks which belonged to
Wm. Lescropp. Henry Lescropp to make estate for life to Adam of £22
p.a. land and rent in Muskham and Carleton. Given at York, 4 March' 46
Edw III (1372) [L]. Possibly the same Adam de Thorp shown on a 1379
Subsidy Roll for the Yorkshire parish of Ripon: 'MARKETTESTEED IN
RYPON: Adam de Thorp & vxor ejus iiij.d.'[M] Dead by 1400; Katherine
______ was living in 1400. 'Katherine widow of Adam Thorp to Hugh de
Thorp her son, manor etc. as above'.[N]

6. Ellen Thorp, who married John Marshall.[O]

7. William Marshall of Carleton, Notts., who married Catherine Leeke[P]

8. John Marshall of Carleton, who married Elizabeth Bingham.[Q]

9. Agnes Marshall, who married Lawrence Hatfield[R] (fl. 1456) [S]

10.Agnes Hatfield, who married Thomas Cranmer of Aslacton [T]

11.Archbishop Thomas Cranmer, Archdeacon Edmund Cranmer, & others. [U]

Since the Visitations state that the grandson of Adam Thorp is stated
to have married a Leek, it may also be noteworthy that the document
referenced in 1372 [K] and another grant made by Adam's son in 1401 [V]
were witnessed by Simon de Leek and Sir John Leek respectively. The
documents mentioning Adam de Thorp associate him with Carleton and
Muskham, precisely the places that the visitations mention in
connection with the Marshall family. (This Marshall family's origins
are another matter. Their pedigree displays an apparently flawed
descent from the Brus family, though the Bruse [sic] quarter of their
arms is in fact suggestive of a younger son's differenced coat.)

Sources:



[A] DD/FJ/1/36/2 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[B] DD/FJ/1/36/3 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[C] DD/FJ/1/22/5 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[D] DD/FJ/1/36/4 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[E] DDCC/111/6 (East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service)
[F] SpSt/4/11/119/3 (West Yorkshire Archive Service, Bradford)
[G] C 143/286/8 (National Archives, Kew)
[H] C 143/225/21 (National Archives, Kew)
[I] DD/FJ/1/36/5 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[J] C 143/298/12 (National Archives, Kew)
[K] DD/FJ/1/36/6 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[L] DD/FJ/1/21/1 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[M] http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/ YKS/Misc/SubsidyRolls/WRY/Ripon.html
[N] DD/FJ/1/36/7 (Nottinghamshire Archives)
[O] Marshall Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 166
[P] Marshall Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 166
[Q] Marshall Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 166
[R] Marshall Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 166
[S] 'Norwell', Transactions of the Thoroton Society, 35 (1930);
Published online at
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles ... rwell1.htm
[T] Cranmer Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 70
[U] Cranmer Pedigree, Visitations of Nottingham 1569 & 1614, P. 71
[V] DD/FJ/1/36/9 (Nottinghamshire Archives)

Gjest

Re: Thorp descent to Cranmer?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2005 15:21:38

Matthew

As you no doubt know, Sir John Leek (d c1415)was son and heir of Sir
Simon Leek (d c1383); Sir John in turn had a son Simon, who left four
daughters and coheirs (Roskell's History of Parliament 1386-1421 Vol
III sub Leek). Do you know where Catherine fits in to the prolific
Leek family?

Regards

Michael

Matthew Hovius

Re: Thorp descent to Cranmer?

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 24 sep 2005 15:55:33

Michael

Not quite sure. The Marshall pedigree that I mentioned describes her as
'Catherin d. of Thomas Leeke'. I did copy the section on Leek (but did
not, alas, look for any mention of Thorp) in Thoroton the last chance I
had; he showed Sir John and Sir Simon but does not mention any Thomas
who seems a good fit chronologically (his chart only shows a 'Thomas,
10 E. 2.. miles, 38 E 3'). There probably are better sources for a
history of the Leek family; Thoroton himself said 'I cannot perfect the
Descent as I would in this Place.'

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Thorp descent to Cranmer?

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 sep 2005 09:29:42

Matthew

I'll try Thoroton again myself shortly - the Leeks are tied up with the
Rempstons, Foljambes et al (and, I think, the Binghams as well).
ANything I nut out, I'll post here, and I shall keep an eye out for
Thorpes and Marshalls.

MAR

Matthew Hovius

Re: Thorp descent to Cranmer?

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 26 sep 2005 10:47:19

Michael,

You're right abut the Binghams and Leeks, and their connections with
the Thorp family - this is one of those cases where family ties seem to
have endured for several generations, and they often appear in each
others' documents as witnesses. Incidentally, Elizabeth Bingham, who
appears in the lineage that I posted above, is given in the Marshall
visitation pedigree as 'd. of Raffe Bingham of Bingham'. I suspect that
this is the 'Rad. Bingham de Carcolston' or Raph Bingham that Thoroton
(Vol. 1, Carcolston, Pp. 240-2) gives as an uncle of Sir Richard
Bingham, Justice of the King's Bench. This Raph Bingham is shown as a
son of Thomas de Bingham and his wife Matilda, and a document
pertaining to Newark in A2A then appears to give one additional
generation. [DD/H/22/22 - date: 1 May 1381 (ii) John de Byngham of
Newark, snr. and Matilda his wife "and for sometime widow remaining
after death of the said John", and Thomas their son.] Thoroton has a
Maud, relict of Thomas de Bingham of Carcolston, mother of Raph on 1392
- I wonder if he has mixed up Thomas and John?

Back to Thomas Leek. A2A also shows this document, which pertains to
the Simon Leek whom you mentioned earlier, he of the four daughters.

'NOTTINGHAMSHIRE

COTHAM AND SIBTHORPE - ref. 157 DD/P/8

A bundle labelled "Cavendish Deeds".

FILE [no title] - ref. 157 DD/P/8/3 - date: 1 June 1439
[from Scope and Content] Letter of Attorney: Sir Thomas
Rempston, Sir John Pygot, Nicholas Wymbyssh, William Rempston, George
Plumpton, Robert Stokwyth, clerks, Robert Rempston, esq., Ralph Leek of
Kirton, Hugh Wymbyssh, John Leek of Halom, and Richard Wakefield of
Newerk to Thomas Leek and John Byngham esqs: to deliver seisin to Mary,
wife of Sir Giles Dawbeney (eldest daughter of Simon Leek esq.,
dec'd.):-- manor of Cotom, 40ac. in meadow called Stokemede, and all
other property in Hawton which they with others had of the gift of S.L.
--: to Mary and heirs of her body; with remainder to Margaret, wife of
John Markham (second daughter of S.L.) and heirs of her body; then to
Elizabeth, wife of Hugh Heroy, esq. (third daughter of S.L.) and heirs
of her body; then to Anne, wife of Richard Wyloughby, esq. (fourth
daughter of S.L.) and heirs of her body; then to right heirs of S.L.
Seals.'

A wonderful medieval document for the detail with which it identifies
the daughters of Simon Leek, but unfortunately it does not clearly
explain the relationship (assuming that there was one) between Simon
and the other three gentlemen - Ralph, John and Thomas.

Matthew

Matthew Hovius

Re: Thorp descent to Cranmer - new data from BYU

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 07 okt 2005 10:12:43

Thanks to John Brandon's timely reminder regarding the existence of the
BYU online collections site, I was able to locate this fine which adds
some dates and places to the Marshall/Leek connection discussed above:


Notts. 5 Henry VI. [1426-7]. Between William Marshall of Southmuskham,
William Besewyk, Vicar of Southmuskham, and John Marshall of
Southmuskham, junior, plaintiffs, and Thomas de Leek of Holme, next
Newerk, and Margaret his wife, defendants. Thomas and Margaret receive
100 marks for land in Southmuskham, etc.

From 'Miscellanea Marescalliana : being genealogical notes on the
surname of Marshall', II, P. 74.

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