New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

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Douglas Richardson royala

New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 23 sep 2005 15:03:40

Dear Newsgroup:

I've had a brief opportunity to check out the new online Dictionary of
National Biography. Under King Henry II of England, I notice the
author states correctly that his sons, Henry and Richard, were
betrothed to Margaret and Alice respectively, both daughters of King
Louis VII of France and his second wife, Constanza of Castile.

Best always, Douglas Richardsdon, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: New DNB

Biography of King Henry II of England:

"Queen Eleanor and Henry II had eight children, all but one of whom
survived infancy. In 1170 their four sons and three daughters ranged in
age from fifteen to three years old. The eldest daughter, Matilda, was
wed to Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony. Her sister Eleanor was betrothed
to Alfonso, king of Castile. The eldest surviving son, Henry, was
married to Margaret, daughter of Louis VII of France and his second
wife, Constanza of Castile, while another son, Richard, was betrothed
to her uterine sister, Alice." END OF QUOTE.

John Brandon

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 sep 2005 15:52:08

Doesn't 'uterine' sister mean half-sister by the mother?

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 23 sep 2005 16:01:17

Dear John ~

Yes, you are correct. Normally, the term "uterine" means a person and
his (or her) sibling had the same mother, but not the same father.

In this case, I think the author was simply trying to say that Margaret
and Alice had the same mother, Constance of Castile, with no comment
about the paternity.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John Brandon

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 sep 2005 16:08:02

Oooh, trampy Constanza ...

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 sep 2005 18:07:49

John Brandon wrote:
Oooh, trampy Constanza ...


No, you are reading too much into it. While it is most commonly used to
refer to maternal half-sisters, the term uterine sibling is also
sometimes used for

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 sep 2005 18:13:25

John Brandon wrote:
Doesn't 'uterine' sister mean half-sister by the mother?

While it is most commonly used to refer to maternal half-sisters, the
term uterine sibling is also sometimes used for children of a man with
multiple wives to indicate that they had the same mother - that they
were full-siblings.

taf

Gjest

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2005 19:31:02

Todd A. Farmerie writes:

John Brandon wrote:
Doesn't 'uterine' sister mean half-sister by the mother?

While it is most commonly used to refer to maternal half-sisters, the term
uterine sibling is also sometimes used for children of a man with multiple
wives to indicate that they had the same mother - that they were
full-siblings.

taf

wikpedia gives Alice as a full sister of Marguerite
however a far more reliable source

ES II Table 11
gives Marguerite as daughter of Louis VII second wife Constance
Alice (Alys, Alix) as daughter of third wife Alice of Blois-Champagne, this
is the Alice engaged to Richard but she married William II Count of Ponthieu

to complicate things there was also a daughter Alice by his first marriage
to Eleanor, she married Thiebaut V Count of Blois


cheers

Simon

Gjest

Re: New DNB: Parentage of Alice of France

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2005 21:05:02

In a message dated 9/23/05 10:30:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fairthorne@breathe.com writes:

<< gives Marguerite as daughter of Louis VII second wife Constance
Alice (Alys, Alix) as daughter of third wife Alice of Blois-Champagne, this
is the Alice engaged to Richard but she married William II Count of Ponthieu

Were Henry-Margaret and Richard-Alice all bethrothed at the same time?

Wikipedia is specific about Henry-Margaret being betrothed on 2 Nov 1160 but
not married until 27 Aug 1172 (at Winchester Cathedral); but is not specific
on the date of betrothal of Richard to Alice. It does however add the
interesting factoid that Richard repudiated Alice on Mar 1190, at Messina, because
"she had had a child by his father" [Henry II, King of England].

The other quote which makes me ask this, is that upon the death of Constance
of Castile (4 Oct 1160 in childbirth, giving birth to Alice), Louis VII, King
of France, remarried to Alix of Champagne on 18 Oct 1160.

Wikipedia says about this, that "to counterbalance [this], he immediately
celebrated the marriage of their children". That is, that Henry II celebrated
the marriage of his child[ren] to that [or those] of Louis II. So it becomes
important to know that all four were bethrothed by this period (that is when
Alice was only a few months old) or not.


Thanks
Will Johnson

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