Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Leo van de Pas
Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Often you cannot translate expressions directly, what does "una bisbuela criolla" mean?
Immeditaly with this remark is given "descendant of Afonso III, King of Portugal 1210-1279" and this is in regards to someone who lived in the 20th century.
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Immeditaly with this remark is given "descendant of Afonso III, King of Portugal 1210-1279" and this is in regards to someone who lived in the 20th century.
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
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Denis Beauregard
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Le Fri, 23 Sep 2005 05:13:15 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
("Leo van de Pas") écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
You don't know about the various translators on the web, like
google or altavista ?
In Spanish, abuela is an old lady. Maybe bisbuela is similar to
bisaieul in French, i.e. great-grand-mother ?
google translates criolla as Creole.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard - Les Français d'Amérique
/\/ http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1711
/ | http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
oo oo Mon association de généalogie: http://www.sgcf.com
("Leo van de Pas") écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
Often you cannot translate expressions directly, what does "una bisbuela criolla" mean?
Immeditaly with this remark is given "descendant of Afonso III, King of Portugal 1210-1279" and this is in regards to someone who lived in the 20th century.
You don't know about the various translators on the web, like
google or altavista ?
In Spanish, abuela is an old lady. Maybe bisbuela is similar to
bisaieul in French, i.e. great-grand-mother ?
google translates criolla as Creole.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard - Les Français d'Amérique
/\/ http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1711
/ | http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
oo oo Mon association de généalogie: http://www.sgcf.com
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Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Could you provide a bit more context? Bisbuela should probably be
bisabuela, i.e. greatgrandmother (or more generally, ancestress), while
criolla is an adjective meaning either Creole or Latin American. It is
not immediately obvious why the two would be found adjacent, and if it
is idiomatic, I would not recognize it, but perhaps a longer quote would
clarify.
taf
Often you cannot translate expressions directly, what does "una bisbuela criolla" mean?
Immeditaly with this remark is given "descendant of Afonso III, King of Portugal 1210-1279" and this is in regards to someone who lived in the 20th century.
Could you provide a bit more context? Bisbuela should probably be
bisabuela, i.e. greatgrandmother (or more generally, ancestress), while
criolla is an adjective meaning either Creole or Latin American. It is
not immediately obvious why the two would be found adjacent, and if it
is idiomatic, I would not recognize it, but perhaps a longer quote would
clarify.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
My Spanish dictionary indicates that "criollo" (of which criolla would
be the femanine) is used in America (by which it means Latin America) to
indicate a native of, or something from, Spanish America. This would be
a usage in the local Spanish, and does not imply that the French/English
"Creole" is also extended to include that definition - I have never seen
Creole used in that context. At least in my experience, in USAian,
"Creole" has a linguistic aspect to it, being used for the descendants
of the French-speaking colonies in the West Indies and Louisiana (but
not of the Spanish- or English-speaking ones), and also for various
isolated coastal/island settlements deriving from freed/escaped slaves
and speaking a linguistic creole (a pidgin evolved into a full-fledged
language).
If your source is from Latin America, I would suggest another
possibility - it could be an idiomatic expression for something like a
"fourth-generation native".
I think you will need a criollo to answer this. As recently as a year
ago, J.L.Fernandez-Blanco of Argentina participated in soc.gen.med. If
he can still be reached, he is more likely to know your answer than this
gringo.
taf
My quote is very basic, it only gives the names of this person, born and
died in Buenos Aires and "una bisabuela criolla", descendant of Afonso
III, King of Portugal. this is all I have. I have the names of the
parents and four grandparents, all from Buenos Aires. The paternal
grandfather also has interesting additions "el Capitan de Granaderos"
and "guerrero de la Independencia", he lived from 1809 to 1887. And I do
have a line to Afonso III.
I thought that Creole only applied to people from the West Indies, not
South America,
I understand Josephine de Beauharnais was a Creole because she was born
in the West Indies but did not have a coloured ancestry.
My Spanish dictionary indicates that "criollo" (of which criolla would
be the femanine) is used in America (by which it means Latin America) to
indicate a native of, or something from, Spanish America. This would be
a usage in the local Spanish, and does not imply that the French/English
"Creole" is also extended to include that definition - I have never seen
Creole used in that context. At least in my experience, in USAian,
"Creole" has a linguistic aspect to it, being used for the descendants
of the French-speaking colonies in the West Indies and Louisiana (but
not of the Spanish- or English-speaking ones), and also for various
isolated coastal/island settlements deriving from freed/escaped slaves
and speaking a linguistic creole (a pidgin evolved into a full-fledged
language).
Could bisabuela mean quarter, one-eight "criolla" whatever criolla is
indicating?
If your source is from Latin America, I would suggest another
possibility - it could be an idiomatic expression for something like a
"fourth-generation native".
I think you will need a criollo to answer this. As recently as a year
ago, J.L.Fernandez-Blanco of Argentina participated in soc.gen.med. If
he can still be reached, he is more likely to know your answer than this
gringo.
taf
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
My quote is very basic, it only gives the names of this person, born and
died in Buenos Aires and "una bisabuela criolla", descendant of Afonso III,
King of Portugal. this is all I have. I have the names of the parents and
four grandparents, all from Buenos Aires. The paternal grandfather also has
interesting additions "el Capitan de Granaderos" and "guerrero de la
Independencia", he lived from 1809 to 1887. And I do have a line to Afonso
III.
I thought that Creole only applied to people from the West Indies, not South
America,
I understand Josephine de Beauharnais was a Creole because she was born in
the West Indies but did not have a coloured ancestry.
Could bisabuela mean quarter, one-eight "criolla" whatever criolla is
indicating?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
died in Buenos Aires and "una bisabuela criolla", descendant of Afonso III,
King of Portugal. this is all I have. I have the names of the parents and
four grandparents, all from Buenos Aires. The paternal grandfather also has
interesting additions "el Capitan de Granaderos" and "guerrero de la
Independencia", he lived from 1809 to 1887. And I do have a line to Afonso
III.
I thought that Creole only applied to people from the West Indies, not South
America,
I understand Josephine de Beauharnais was a Creole because she was born in
the West Indies but did not have a coloured ancestry.
Could bisabuela mean quarter, one-eight "criolla" whatever criolla is
indicating?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Often you cannot translate expressions directly, what does "una bisbuela
criolla" mean?
Immeditaly with this remark is given "descendant of Afonso III, King of
Portugal 1210-1279" and this is in regards to someone who lived in the
20th century.
Could you provide a bit more context? Bisbuela should probably be
bisabuela, i.e. greatgrandmother (or more generally, ancestress), while
criolla is an adjective meaning either Creole or Latin American. It is
not immediately obvious why the two would be found adjacent, and if it is
idiomatic, I would not recognize it, but perhaps a longer quote would
clarify.
taf
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Leo van de Pas
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
My details were supplied by a Dutchman who quoted an Argentinian
genealogist.
I think I'd better ignore these remarks unless a more knowledgeable person
can explain.
Many thanks.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
genealogist.
I think I'd better ignore these remarks unless a more knowledgeable person
can explain.
Many thanks.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
My quote is very basic, it only gives the names of this person, born and
died in Buenos Aires and "una bisabuela criolla", descendant of Afonso
III, King of Portugal. this is all I have. I have the names of the
parents and four grandparents, all from Buenos Aires. The paternal
grandfather also has interesting additions "el Capitan de Granaderos" and
"guerrero de la Independencia", he lived from 1809 to 1887. And I do have
a line to Afonso III.
I thought that Creole only applied to people from the West Indies, not
South America,
I understand Josephine de Beauharnais was a Creole because she was born
in the West Indies but did not have a coloured ancestry.
My Spanish dictionary indicates that "criollo" (of which criolla would be
the femanine) is used in America (by which it means Latin America) to
indicate a native of, or something from, Spanish America. This would be a
usage in the local Spanish, and does not imply that the French/English
"Creole" is also extended to include that definition - I have never seen
Creole used in that context. At least in my experience, in USAian,
"Creole" has a linguistic aspect to it, being used for the descendants of
the French-speaking colonies in the West Indies and Louisiana (but not of
the Spanish- or English-speaking ones), and also for various isolated
coastal/island settlements deriving from freed/escaped slaves and speaking
a linguistic creole (a pidgin evolved into a full-fledged language).
Could bisabuela mean quarter, one-eight "criolla" whatever criolla is
indicating?
If your source is from Latin America, I would suggest another
possibility - it could be an idiomatic expression for something like a
"fourth-generation native".
I think you will need a criollo to answer this. As recently as a year
ago, J.L.Fernandez-Blanco of Argentina participated in soc.gen.med. If he
can still be reached, he is more likely to know your answer than this
gringo.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
In a message dated 9/23/05 1:13:40 AM, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
Should be bisabuela. A south american born great grandmother.
Barbara
what does "una bisbuela criolla" mean?
Should be bisabuela. A south american born great grandmother.
Barbara
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Gjest
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Spanish creollo - Portuguese creoulo - as French creole applies to West
Indies and some Atlantic Islands but not to South America. West Indies,
understood as all the islands of the Gulf and coastal areas of South,
Central and North America, e.g. Louisiana.
But Argentinians or Brazilians are not creollo.
The word doesn't imply nor excludes - but suggest - a coloured ancestry
acquired from african or indian blood.
I agree with all that Todd said but his Spanish dictionary was slightly
inaccurate.
Normally - not in parish registers - the masculin refers to the
language and the feminin to a woman with a kind of exotic beauty and/or
an attractive way of walk and move. My first association for "creolla"
would be a cuban of La Habana; and for "creole" a french from
Martinique.
In a parish register, it probably means a great grandmother born in the
area I mentioned and, again probably, with some native ancestry (could
be less than 1/2).
To know more, it would be necessary to study more registers of the same
parish to evaluate the "habits" of the priest. By portuguese standards
I would say it is a very unusual entry.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
Indies and some Atlantic Islands but not to South America. West Indies,
understood as all the islands of the Gulf and coastal areas of South,
Central and North America, e.g. Louisiana.
But Argentinians or Brazilians are not creollo.
The word doesn't imply nor excludes - but suggest - a coloured ancestry
acquired from african or indian blood.
I agree with all that Todd said but his Spanish dictionary was slightly
inaccurate.
Normally - not in parish registers - the masculin refers to the
language and the feminin to a woman with a kind of exotic beauty and/or
an attractive way of walk and move. My first association for "creolla"
would be a cuban of La Habana; and for "creole" a french from
Martinique.
In a parish register, it probably means a great grandmother born in the
area I mentioned and, again probably, with some native ancestry (could
be less than 1/2).
To know more, it would be necessary to study more registers of the same
parish to evaluate the "habits" of the priest. By portuguese standards
I would say it is a very unusual entry.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
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duxbellorum
Re: Can anyone translate from Spanish?
Hi people, may I introduce an opinion from a latin american? I'm
brazilian and this is what I learned from public school.
The best answer is "A Spanish American born great grandmother".
"Criollo" or "Criolla" in the Colonial History of Hispanic America
means that the person was born in America from Spanish parents. Several
episodes in the Latin America History shows the struggle between
"Criollos x Chaperones". "Chaperones" were the Spanish born elite that
ruled the colonies. The Criollos, although their pure spanish blood,
were automatically excluded from the colonial rule by the Spanish law.
In Brazil, nowadays, the word evolved to "Crioulo" which, in its most
common use, means pure African Ancestry. This happened due the use of
expression "Negro Crioulo" in the slavery trade to differentiate the
Americans from the Africans born ones.
I think, in the remote past, the word, both in Portuguese and Spanish,
meant things that were born in America. Today, in Brazil, we still use
expressions like "gado crioulo", "cavalo crioulo" for Americans breeds
of cattle and horses.
Thank you,
João Oliveira
Rio de Janeiro
brazilian and this is what I learned from public school.
The best answer is "A Spanish American born great grandmother".
"Criollo" or "Criolla" in the Colonial History of Hispanic America
means that the person was born in America from Spanish parents. Several
episodes in the Latin America History shows the struggle between
"Criollos x Chaperones". "Chaperones" were the Spanish born elite that
ruled the colonies. The Criollos, although their pure spanish blood,
were automatically excluded from the colonial rule by the Spanish law.
In Brazil, nowadays, the word evolved to "Crioulo" which, in its most
common use, means pure African Ancestry. This happened due the use of
expression "Negro Crioulo" in the slavery trade to differentiate the
Americans from the Africans born ones.
I think, in the remote past, the word, both in Portuguese and Spanish,
meant things that were born in America. Today, in Brazil, we still use
expressions like "gado crioulo", "cavalo crioulo" for Americans breeds
of cattle and horses.
Thank you,
João Oliveira
Rio de Janeiro