Free access to DNB this weekend

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Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2005 16:37:44

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but in case anyone doesn't know who
would like to, there is apparently free online access to the new DNB
from 23-25 Sept (presumably going by GMT or BST) to mark its first
anniversary.

It's at http://www.oxforddnb.com -hope their server can cope.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 16:49:09

mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I haven't seen it mentioned here, but in case anyone doesn't know who
would like to, there is apparently free online access to the new DNB
from 23-25 Sept (presumably going by GMT or BST) to mark its first
anniversary.

It's at http://www.oxforddnb.com -hope their server can cope.

Remember that the online access page has a nice "search for words in
text" box, which will search the entire text.

Therefore, even though I did not find an entry for "Moses Wall," when I
entered his name in the "search for words" box, I came up with two
entries:


* Carter, William (1605-1658), Independent minister
...to Martha on her marriage or on reaching twenty-one. William
Greenhill, a fellow Independent minister, and MOSES WALL were named
trustees. Carter died in the parish of St Giles Cripplegate ...

* Sterry, Peter (1613-1672), Independent minister
...in London. He developed a close association with Sir Henry
Vane the younger and, along with MOSES WALL, was examined on 24 January
1644 in regard to an exchange of ...

You can search for places in this way ("South Carolina," for instance):


* Abercromby, James (1707-1775), colonial agent and politician
...to the bar in 1738. At twenty-four Abercromby travelled to
America, having been commissioned as attorney-general for SOUTH
CAROLINA. There he settled for thirteen years, acquiring 6980 acres of
land. Between ...

* Adair, James (fl. 1736-1775), trader and author in America
...of his life in the upcountry South, above the fall line in
what was to become SOUTH CAROLINA and Georgia, a territory between the
orbits of the English, French, and ...

* Aldridge, William (1737-1797), Independent minister
...Later the two preachers supplied Margate and Dover
alternately. Cook subsequently travelled as a missionary to SOUTH
CAROLINA and Georgia in America. Lady Huntingdon, who seldom permitted
her preachers to stay ...

Or any other word that interests you ...

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 16:58:27

By looking at the list generated for "New England," I've located an
ancestral cousin (relation of the Noyeses and Woodbridges) ...

Avery [née Parker], Elizabeth (fl. 1614-1653), prophetess, was the
daughter of Robert Parker (c.1564-1614) and his wife, Dorothy Stevens.
She was one of three children; her sister, Sarah, was baptized on 15
April 1593 and her brother, Thomas Parker (1595-1677), was born on 8
June 1595. Her father was vicar and prebendary of Stanton St Bernard,
Wiltshire, from 1593 until his suspension in 1607 for publishing a
denunciation of religious ceremonies which condemned them as
Antichristian. He fled to the Netherlands, in either that year or 1610.
He was joined in 1612 by his wife and children in Amsterdam, where he
preached before the English church before becoming chaplain to the
garrison and pastor of the English church at Doesburg in Gelderland. In
the Netherlands Robert Parker was a semi-separatist, advocating the
autonomy of individual congregations but rejecting both a language of
separatism and presbyterian organization. His venture into millenarian
prophecy, An exposition of the powring out of the fourth vial, was
published posthumously in 1650. Elizabeth's brother became minister of
Newbury in Massachusetts, where he was one of only two ministers who
preferred the presbyterian to the congregational way. Her sister
married the puritan minister Thomas Baylie, accused by Anthony Wood of
being a Fifth Monarchist.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 19:27:56

Can anybody comment on the accuracy of the following (from new DNB, in
case it isn't obvious)?

Gough, John (1757-1825), natural and experimental philosopher, was born
in Kendal, Westmorland, on 17 January 1757, the eldest child of Nathan
Gough (d. 1800) and his wife, Susannah (1731-1798), at their home at
Yard 77, Stramongate. His father, a shearman-dyer, was described as a
'wealthy tradesman' (Henry, 9) and his mother was the eldest
daughter of John Wilson, a prosperous farmer with a good estate on the
west bank of Lake Windermere. Nathan and Susannah Gough had three sons
and four daughters, one of whom died in infancy. The family belonged to
the Society of Friends, whose communities flourished in Cumberland and
Westmorland during this period. The Goughs had deep roots in the
history of English dissent: John Gough's great- great-grandfather,
General William Goffe, had been one of the judges at Charles I's trial
in 1649 and later found refuge among the puritans of New England.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 20:03:42

Yes it is dead obvious in a thread where we are discussing ways to
search the new DNB and in which I've already quoted many times from the
new DNB.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 20:07:57

Several times on the newsgroup I've mentioned Rev. Samuel Lee who went
to New England. See http://tinyurl.com/9paph .

There's a bio. of him in the new DNB ...

Lee, Samuel (1625?-1691), nonconformist minister and natural
philosopher, was born in London, the only son of Samuel Lee (d. in or
after 1669), a pious and prosperous haberdasher of Fish Street Hill.
Anthony Wood recorded his birth date as 1625, but he may have been the
Samuel Lee, son of Samuel, baptized at St Leonard Eastcheap on 29
August 1627. He was educated at St Paul's School, London, and in 1647
was admitted to Magdalen Hall, Oxford. On 14 April 1648 he was granted
an MA by the parliamentary visitors, who on 3 October appointed him a
fellow of Wadham College, where he immediately became bursar. Serving
again as bursar in 1650 and 1654, Lee improved record keeping in the
college, and remained there despite being recommended in January 1650
for a fellowship at All Souls. He was elected a junior proctor of the
university for 1651, the visitors granting him a dispensation for the
office as he was not yet of sufficient standing. In 1652 he was
sub-warden of Wadham, and in 1653 dean. The following year the
visitors, noting Lee's absence from the college, instructed him to
return. He preached frequently in the Oxford area, but on 27 July 1655,
at the urging of Oliver Cromwell, he reluctantly became rector of St
Botolph without Bishopsgate, London. He did not resign his fellowship
until 1657, and left his rectory some time before 30 August 1659, when
he preached to the council of state, although he continued as a
lecturer at nearby St Helen's. At an unknown date he married, perhaps
Martha, the wife who survived him. ...

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 20:34:10

Sorry John I don't accept that.
Thanks
Will Johnson


This is the height of silliness. Sort of like your mentioning to me in
an email that you don't own a copy of RPA, despite getting up a page of
corrections to it!

Gjest

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2005 20:57:01

In a message dated 9/22/05 11:41:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Can anybody comment on the accuracy of the following (from new DNB, in
case it isn't obvious)?

Gough, John (1757-1825), >>

No John it's not "obvious" that a typed paragraph is necessarily from DNB.
You can continue to berate me for asking you a simple question, however I
will continue to point out just as often, that you have no grounds to do so.
Thanks
Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 21:11:46

The sketch of Capt. Walter Neale (d. 1639) of New England mentions that
"[i]n October 1633 Neale was referred to as 'Lady Sydenham's full
cousin german' and recommended as someone who had brought 'very
good grain from New England' (CSP dom., 1633-4, 230)." Possibly
this is new.

Gjest

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2005 21:29:02

In a message dated 9/22/05 12:11:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Yes it is dead obvious in a thread where we are discussing ways to
search the new DNB and in which I've already quoted many times from the
new DNB. >>

Sorry John I don't accept that.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2005 21:48:01

In a message dated 9/22/05 12:41:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< This is the height of silliness. Sort of like your mentioning to me in
an email that you don't own a copy of RPA, despite getting up a page of
corrections to it! >>

That is correct I do not own a copy of RPA.
However the page of corrections, are all submitted by posters to this list,
they are not my own. I am merely hosting the place for where these corrections
go. I in no way contribute to the content of what is posted there, except
layout and access.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 23:02:42

For instance, even though my ancestor Henry Whitfield is given his own
biography, I've also found the following refs. to him ...


* Davenport, John (bap. 1597, d. 1670), minister in America
...William Twisse, and other conforming puritans in a meeting at
Ockley, Surrey, at the home of Henry Whitfield, where they endeavoured
to persuade John Cotton and Thomas Hooker of the ...

* Desborough [Disbrowe], Samuel (1619-1690), politician and
administrator
...between New Haven and Totoket. At an unknown date he married
Dorothy (d. 1654), daughter of Henry Whitfield of Ockley, Surrey, the
first minister of Guilford, who too had emigrated ...

* Griffith [Griffiths], George (1618?-1699x1702), Independent
minister
...other Independent clergy urged parliament to support missions
to Native Americans; their letter was published in Henry Whitfield's
Strengthe out of Weaknesse (1652). As the Rump Parliament debated
doctrinal articles ...

* Hooker, Thomas (1586?-1647), minister in America
...brilliantly evident. Hooker's importance rests on these
dramatic examples of his pulpit mastery. His fellow Connecticut
minister, Henry Whitfield, captured an essential characteristic in
Hooker's ministry in saying: That he had the best command of his own
spirit, which he ever saw in any man whatever. ...

* Leete, William (c.1613-1683), colonial governor
...of Southoe, on 1 August 1636. In 1639 they emigrated to New
England with the Revd Henry Whitfield. Leete signed Whitfield's group's
shipboard plantation covenant on 1 June 1639, and ...

* Owen, John (1616-1683), theologian and Independent minister Click
here to see image
...the Bible. With eleven other Independent ministers he wrote a
letter to parliament, printed in Henry Whitfield's Strengthe out of
Weaknesse (1652), endorsing missionary activity among North American
Indians. ...

* Pierce [Peirse], Thomas (1621/2-1691), dean of Salisbury and
religious controversialist
...the initials 'T. P.' in 1655. This work generated hostile
responses from theological opponents such as Henry Whitfield, William
Barlee, and Henry Hickman, and a pamphlet war led to further ..

* Cotton, John (1585-1652), minister in America
...colleague Thomas Hooker, who was likewise under attack, were
invited to the home of the Revd Henry Whitefield, at Ockley in Surrey,
to discuss their nonconformist stance with Thomas Goodwin, ...

* Greenhill, William (1597/8-1671), Independent minister
...The Day-Breaking, if not the Sun Rising of the Gospel with the
Indians in New England. Henry Whitefield's collection of letters from
New England about the conversion of Native Americans, ...

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 sep 2005 23:04:31

John Brandon wrote:
By looking at the list generated for "New England," I've located an
ancestral cousin (relation of the Noyeses and Woodbridges) ...

Avery [née Parker], Elizabeth (fl. 1614-1653), prophetess, was the
daughter of Robert Parker (c.1564-1614) and his wife, Dorothy Stevens.
She was one of three children; her sister, Sarah, was baptized on 15
April 1593 and her brother, Thomas Parker (1595-1677), was born on 8
June 1595. Her father was vicar and prebendary of Stanton St Bernard,
Wiltshire, from 1593 until his suspension in 1607 for publishing a
denunciation of religious ceremonies which condemned them as
Antichristian. He fled to the Netherlands, in either that year or 1610.
He was joined in 1612 by his wife and children in Amsterdam, where he
preached before the English church before becoming chaplain to the
garrison and pastor of the English church at Doesburg in Gelderland. In
the Netherlands Robert Parker was a semi-separatist, advocating the
autonomy of individual congregations but rejecting both a language of
separatism and presbyterian organization. His venture into millenarian
prophecy, An exposition of the powring out of the fourth vial, was
published posthumously in 1650. Elizabeth's brother became minister of
Newbury in Massachusetts, where he was one of only two ministers who
preferred the presbyterian to the congregational way. Her sister
married the puritan minister Thomas Baylie, accused by Anthony Wood of
being a Fifth Monarchist.


Can anybody reconcile the conflict below? NEW DNB, sub "Woodbridge,"
says ...

Woodbridge, Benjamin (1622-1684), nonconformist minister, was the son
of John Woodbridge (1582-1637), rector of Stanton Fitzwarren,
Wiltshire, and Sarah (1593-1663), daughter of Robert Parker
(c.1564-1614), the puritan whose scruples about the liturgy and
vestments of the Church of England led him to write De politeia
ecclesiastica Christi (1616).

However, sub "Baylie," it says ...

Baylie, Thomas (1581/2-1663), ejected minister, was born in Wiltshire;
his parents are unknown. ... Having resigned his fellowship Baylie
married Sarah (bap. 1593?, d. 1660), daughter of Robert Parker
(c.1564-1614), minister in the Netherlands, and his wife, Dorothy, and
sister of Thomas Parker (1595-1677); their son Robert was born in 1615
or 1616.

Todd A. Farmerie

Sandford (was Re: Free access to DNB this weekend)

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 sep 2005 06:40:01

I note that (re our discussion of a couple of weeks ago) DNB still has
Fulk de Sandford, Archbishop of Dublin, as a male-line Basset:

"[He] was the nephew of Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271), and therefore the
son of either Fulk Basset (d. 1259), bishop of London, or of Gilbert
Basset (d. 1241)."

Is there some reason not obvious to me why no consideration is given the
possibility that he could have been son of a sister?


As to Archbishop John, a more circumspect view is taken, indicating that
he "has traditionally been regarded as the brother of Fulk of Sandford,
archbishop of Dublin, although he was not described as Fulk's brother in
any contemporary source."

taf

John Brandon

Re: Sandford (was Re: Free access to DNB this weekend)

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 sep 2005 14:22:40

I note that (re our discussion of a couple of weeks ago) DNB still has
Fulk de Sandford, Archbishop of Dublin, as a male-line Basset:

"[He] was the nephew of Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271), and therefore the
son of either Fulk Basset (d. 1259), bishop of London, or of Gilbert
Basset (d. 1241)."

Is there some reason not obvious to me why no consideration is given the
possibility that he could have been son of a sister?


As to Archbishop John, a more circumspect view is taken, indicating that
he "has traditionally been regarded as the brother of Fulk of Sandford,
archbishop of Dublin, although he was not described as Fulk's brother in
any contemporary source."

It does seem as though the writers for this edition have been less
careful than the writers of the first edition were, as least as far as
the genealogy goes. Sort of disheartening, as it seems to show that
genealogy is less well-respected as a discipline by historians than
formerly. Two examples I've already mentioned are the statement that
the mother of John Nelson (d. 1734) of Boston was "Mary (b. 1623),
daughter of Edmund Temple and Eleanor Harvey," which is completely
wrong. The writer cites the modern scholarly biography of Nelson--R.
R. Johnson, _John Nelson, Merchant Adventurer: A Life Between Empires_
(1991)--but then throws in this misinformation about his mother, citing
a very poor source ("Burke, _Peerage_").

The other example is the wife of Rev. Henry Whitfield--Dorothy Sheafe.
She's named as his wife in the first DNB, but the present edition says
"Whitfield's own family reportedly included ten children, but nothing
is known of his wife." If the author, Francis J. Bremer, had merely
consulted the _NEHGR_ (presumably one of the first places to look), he
could have learned her identity.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 sep 2005 15:47:16

Does the following titbit tend to support the claimed ancestry of the
Maryland Gerards?

Gerard, Richard (1613-1686), royalist army officer, was born in October
1613, the third of ten children of Sir Thomas Gerard (1594/5-1630),
knight and second baronet, of Bryn, Lancashire, and his wife, Frances
Molyneux (d. 1614), daughter of Sir Richard Molyneux, baronet, of
Sefton, Lancashire. Both Richard's grandfathers had been created
baronet at the institution of the order in May 1611, and his father
inherited the title in 1621; his maternal uncle was Sir Richard
Molyneux, from 1628 first Viscount Molyneux of Maryborough. The large
Gerard estates consisted of demesnes, mills, and coal mines. As Roman
Catholics they were legally disqualified from royal service, but like
other Catholic gentry in Lancashire, the Gerards seem to have been
treated leniently when it came to discriminatory taxes against
recusants. At a time when one Thomas Gerard was lord of the manor of St
Clements in Maryland, Richard Gerard is said to have spent a year in
the colony soon after the landing of the planters in 1634. Gerard
returned to England in 1635.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 sep 2005 15:33:45

Back in 2001, I wrote this about Gov. James Glen of S.C. ...

Another fellow not covered in the DAB, but found in the new ANB, is
Gov. James Glen of South Carolina. The ANB notes that the "gossipy
diary of the earl of Egmont reported that Glen married the illegitimate
daughter of Lord Wilmington and that one of Glen's sisters was the
mistress of Sir Robert Walpole, the prime minister at the time of his
[Glen's] appointment. Extensive research has not revealed the name of
Lord Wilmington's daughter." The ANB quotes James Glen as having
remarked that Lord Wilmington "'procured for me the Government of
Carolina.'"

On 11 April 1739, the Earl of Egmont wrote, "Sir Robert Walpole being a
widower has youth enough about him, notwithstanding the age of 64, to
take a new mistress, the sister of Mr. Glenn, the new Governor of
Carolina, which Mr. Glenn married a natural daughter of my Lord
Wilmington" (_Manuscripts of the Earl of Egmont: Diary of the First
Earl of Egmont, Vol. III, 1739-1747_ [London: Historical Manuscripts
Commission, 1923], 49).

The unmarried Spencer Compton, Earl of Wilmington, lord president of
the Privy Council at the time of Glen's appointment as governor, was a
younger son of James Compton, 3rd Earl of Northampton. The Comptons had
a royal connection, being descendants of the Hastings family, earls of
Huntingdon. Thus, the probable wife of Gov. James Glen of South
Carolina was of royal descent.
--------

The new DNB goes a bit further than ANB, saying of Glen that "[h]e
became friends with Spencer Compton, earl of Wilmington, and later
married his illegitimate daughter, Elizabeth Wilson, who was also the
granddaughter of Sir William Wilson."

The sketch of Spencer Compton, however, is a bit more circumspect:
"Although he was unmarried, Wilmington was understood to have fathered
several illegitimate children, one of whom was the wife of James Glen,
for whom in 1739 Wilmington procured the governorship of South
Carolina. He left his entire estate, most of it in Sussex, including
his seat, Compton Place, Eastbourne, to his nephew James Compton, fifth
earl of Northampton."

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sandford (was Re: Free access to DNB this weekend)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 26 sep 2005 16:43:53

Dear John ~

Like you, I found many genealogical errors in my examination of the new
DNB this last weekend. However, it's not just genealogy that DNB is
weak on. It's also the treatment and understanding of basic historical
documents.

In the earlier DNB, the writer of one man's biography somehow collapsed
his two wives into one person, even though they had different given
names. In the new DNB, the writer is aware that the man's two wives
existed, but still clings to the notion that they were one wife. I've
seen the numerous documents for this man's life and for those of his
wives. They clearly show that he had two wives, not one.

Given that the first edition of DNB made an unfortunate error, I'm
unable to fathom how this kind of mistake can be repeated once again,
unless the author of the newer piece posseses no real understanding of
how to do basic research and make sound conclusions. It also reveals
an overall lack of familiarity with the records of the time period, and
the use of given names in specific.

In the same biography, both the old and new DNB claim that the man died
on a certain date. But, when the original source is examined, it shows
that the death was recorded using the Roman calendar ("iii. non.
Martii"). When converted, it indicates that the man's death occured on
a different date than reported by DNB.

So, where did the DNB authors get the wrong date? The wrong date was
written in English in the margin next to the published text of the
man's death. The writers of the DNB piece apparently assumed the date
had been correctly converted from the Roman calendar to Julian
calendar. So, error was compounded upon error.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John Brandon wrote:
It does seem as though the writers for this edition have been less
careful than the writers of the first edition were, as least as far as
the genealogy goes. Sort of disheartening, as it seems to show that
genealogy is less well-respected as a discipline by historians than
formerly.

John Brandon

Re: Sandford (was Re: Free access to DNB this weekend)

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 sep 2005 17:20:06

They have been careless and unsophisticated in some ways, I would say.
It is understandable there would be some errors, but you'd think they
would try for *internal* consistency at least (e.g., my previous
example of Sarah Parker, stated in one place to have married
Woodbridge, and in another Baylie).


Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Dear John ~

Like you, I found many genealogical errors in my examination of the new
DNB this last weekend. However, it's not just genealogy that DNB is
weak on. It's also the treatment and understanding of basic historical
documents.

In the earlier DNB, the writer of one man's biography somehow collapsed
his two wives into one person, even though they had different given
names. In the new DNB, the writer is aware that the man's two wives
existed, but still clings to the notion that they were one wife. I've
seen the numerous documents for this man's life and for those of his
wives. They clearly show that he had two wives, not one.

Given that the first edition of DNB made an unfortunate error, I'm
unable to fathom how this kind of mistake can be repeated once again,
unless the author of the newer piece posseses no real understanding of
how to do basic research and make sound conclusions. It also reveals
an overall lack of familiarity with the records of the time period, and
the use of given names in specific.

In the same biography, both the old and new DNB claim that the man died
on a certain date. But, when the original source is examined, it shows
that the death was recorded using the Roman calendar ("iii. non.
Martii"). When converted, it indicates that the man's death occured on
a different date than reported by DNB.

So, where did the DNB authors get the wrong date? The wrong date was
written in English in the margin next to the published text of the
man's death. The writers of the DNB piece apparently assumed the date
had been correctly converted from the Roman calendar to Julian
calendar. So, error was compounded upon error.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 sep 2005 00:01:23

Whitfield descendants may be amused by the following ...

Dethick, Sir Gilbert (1499/1500-1584), herald and diplomat, was the
grandson of Robert Derrick (d. 1525) of the king's armoury at
Greenwich, a German armourer brought to England by Erasmus Kyrkener,
and Agatha, daughter of Matthis Leyendecker, a barber of Aachen. His
grandparents had three sons, Derick, Gilbert, and Matthew. The latter
two were made denizens by act of parliament in 1542-3, making the
unlikely claim that their father had been born in England and was
descended from the Dethicks of Dethick Hall, Derbyshire, whose arms
they used. Matthew Dethick (d. 1572) became an armourer at Greenwich;
his brother Gilbert married the daughter of Leonard, a Dutch shoemaker
at the sign of the Red Cock, St Martin's Lane, and had children who
included Gilbert, the future herald, and Matthew, who was buried in
York Minster in August 1583.

John Brandon

Re: Free access to DNB this weekend

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 sep 2005 19:13:29

Dethick, Sir Gilbert (1499/1500-1584), herald and diplomat, was the
grandson of Robert Derrick (d. 1525) of the king's armoury at
Greenwich, a German armourer brought to England by Erasmus Kyrkener,

I've just noticed that Erasmus Kirkener is actually mentioned in the
original DNB's sketch of Dethick, where, however, he's called
"Crukenar."

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