Deincourt

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Le Bateman

Deincourt

Legg inn av Le Bateman » 22 sep 2005 06:36:01

Is there a record of a D'Eincourt who married a Hardwick?
Le

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Deincourt

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 22 sep 2005 07:47:30

Le,

I'm wishing I had something that would help you, as I'm trying to find
out what info exists for the Deincourt family which may or may not have
intermarried with that of Swynford ca. 1380s.

Sorry... If I find anything, I'll let you know.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

Tony Ingham

Re: Deincourt

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 23 sep 2005 03:05:02

Hello Judy,

I have much material on the Deincourt family.

I guess the marriage you refer to is the fair Blanche and Robert son and
heir of Robert Deyncourt. (see below)

John Deyncourt (from the same branch of the family) married Margery de
ERDESWYK, daughter of Thomas de Erdeswyk (Hardwick) of Leighton
Cheshire. She was the mother of his two children Roger and Alianora.

All the best,

Tony Ingham

(iii) KATHARINE SWYNFORD


It is difficult to fix an accurate date for the beginning of the
/liason/ of John of Gaunt with Katharine Swynford.
The Monk of Eversham, speaking of Katharine, says: “Quam ut concubinam
multo tempore, /vivente uxore Constancia/ carnaliter cognovit (p.
128),” which, if true, limits it to 1371-1394, while Froissart’s
account narrows the period still further, viz. : “Quant . . . celle
seconde duchesse Constance fut morte, le duc de Lancastre, /la dame
vivante/, avoit tenu celle Katherine de Ruet, qui aussi avoit esté
mariée à ung chevallier d’Angleterre. /Le chevallier vivant et mort/,
tousjours le duc Jehan de Lancastre avoit amé et tenu celle dame
Katherine . . .” [K. de L. xv. 239].
Only the years 1371 and 1372 fit in with this statement, a conclusion
which harmonises with other available evidence. For instance, the
petition to the Pope above quoted mentions the adultery in the life of
Duchess Constance, not in the life of Duchess Blanche. The /Chronicon
Angliae/ (p. 196) speaks of the notoriety of the affair almost as
something new in 1378, while according to Knighton (ii. 147), it was a
well-established fact in 1381. No contemporary evidence supports the
statement of Percy MS. 78 (quoted below), which place the birth of the
Beauforts in the life of the Duchess Blanche. There is no doubt,
however that most historians have postdated the birth of the
Beauforts, or at least of the eldest of them, for in 1390 /Monseigneur
Jehon de Biaufort, bastart de Lancastre/, was old enough to bear
himself with credit at the jousts of Saint Inglevert [Froissart, K. de
L. xiv. 416], though on the other hand Henry Beaufort could be
described as /admondum puer/, when in 1398 he obtained the Bishopric
of Lincoln, and Thomas Beaufort, being described in the patent of
legitimation as /domicellus/ in 1397, was evidently too young for
knighthood in that year.
The evidence of the Register, though inconclusive because incomplete,
points to the same conclusion, viz., that the /liason/ began in 1371
or 1372.
At that date the Duke’s gifts and grants to Katharine are no greater
than might have been made to any other member of his household ;
immediately after they begin to become significant. Here are the
principal instances :— (i) May 1, 1372, gift of 10£. ; (ii) May 15,
1372, grant of an annuity of 20 marcs ; (iii) June 20, 1372, grant of
the wardship of the lands of her late husband, excepting the marriage
fees and advowsons ; (iv) June 23, 1373, gift of three bucks ; (v)
June 28, 1373, gift of oaks ; (vi) Jan. 1, 1375, grant of the wardship
of the lands and heir of Sir Robert Deyncourt, and the marriage of the
heir for her daughter Blanche ; (vii) Jan. 7, 1377, grant of the
manors of Gringley and Wheatley, and gift of a tun of wine ; (viii)
July 23, 1377 grant of tenements, late of Geoffrey de Sutton, in St.
Botolph’s ; (ix) July 24, 1377, gift of 50 oaks for the repair of her
houses at Ketelthorp ; (x) July 25, 1379, grant of the wardship of the
lands and heir of Bertram de Savenby ; (xi) Jan. 20, 1381, grant of
the wardship of the lands, and the marriage of the heir of Elys de
Thoresby ; (xii) Sept. 7, 1381, grant of an annuity of 200 marcs.
The presents, already noticed, made to Katharine by the Mayor of
Leicester belong to the years 1375 and 1379.


Katheryn_Swynford wrote:

Le,

I'm wishing I had something that would help you, as I'm trying to find
out what info exists for the Deincourt family which may or may not have
intermarried with that of Swynford ca. 1380s.

Sorry... If I find anything, I'll let you know.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net




Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Deincourt

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 23 sep 2005 05:46:36

Hi Tony,

I'm feeling really dumb here, but I see that you reference:

John Deyncourt = Margery de Erdeswyk
|
-----------------------------------------------
| |
Roger Alianora

(sorry if the ASCII chart gets screwed up):

How are they relatred to Robert heir of Robert Deincourt? I haven't
been able to find much if anything at all on the Robert supposed
husband of Blanche Swynford... Of course, I just might be an idiot and
not know where to look @;-) As you will see, I clearly am not adverse
to fishing expeditions:

I happened upon (okay, got it via ILL in a fishing expedition) two
rolls of arms from Henry III and Edward III and, for the latter, it is
given for :

"Monsire Dayncourt, port d'asur, billite d'or, a une daunsy d'or ...
Monsire William Dayncourt, port d'argent, a une daunsy et billite,
sable"

[REF: _Rolls of Arms of the Reigns of Henry III. and Edward III._, ed.
Nicholas Harris Nicolas (London: William Pickering, 1829), p. 40]

Same family?

Kindest thanks,

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

Tony Ingham

Re: Deincourt

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 23 sep 2005 13:52:02

Hello Judy,

I was attempting to kill two birds with the one stone and obviously
missed one. Sorry about that.

John Deyncourt was a close relative to Robert the father (and indeed to
Robert the son).

Robert descends from the marriage of William Deyncourt and Millicent la
Zouche, whose children were:

William = Margaret de Welle THE MAIN BRANCH
Nicholas
Oliver
John of Walleyhall Elmton Derbyshire (d. 7 Sep 1385 at Stoke by Newark
Notts.)
Thomas (d. 9 Nov 1368)
Robert = Katherine d'Arundell. Their son Robert married? Blanche
Swynford. He is tentatively placed as the Robert who died in 1441.
Some of my notes:

1389 5 marks rent from 1/3 of manor of Tuxford to the heirs of
William Deyncourt.

1391 Robert Deyncourt has seisin of 10 marks rent from 2/3 of manor
of Tuxford co. Nottingham.

1442 (21 Hy VI.) No. 28, Oct 10
Robert Deincourt died, seized of Walley Hall in Creswell [Derby],
by charter dated 25 Oct. 20 Hy. VI. - he died in November following.
Alice wife of William Lord Lovell aet 32, and Margaret ux Ralf Lord
Cromwell, aet 30, his cousins and heirs.

John of Gaunt's Register

1 Jan 1375 THE SAVOY
181 Johan etc. a touz etc. Faisons savoir que nous, de nostre
grace especiale, avons done et grante a nostre tres chere et bien amee
dame Kateryn de Swynford la garde des terres et del heir de monsire
Robert Deyncourt chivaler, qu'est a Dieu comande, et le marriage del
dit heir pur Blaunche, file du dit dame Kateryn, et les quelles apres
la mort du dit monsire Robert, par cause del maindre age de son dit
filz et heir, sont devenuz es noz mains, a avoir et tenir au dite dame
Kateryn ses heirs et executours la garde de les terres et heir
suisditz ovesque la mariage le dit heir pur Blaunche suisdite tanque
al plain age le dit heir. Eu tesmoignance etc. Donne etc. a Sauvoye
le primer jour de Janver l'an xlviij.

13 Jan 1375 HERTFORD
1607 Johan etc. a nostre bien ame Oliver de Barton saluz. Pource
que nous avons entenduz coment vous avez seisez es noz maines le filz
et heir de monsire Robert Deyncount a cause de son non age, et nous
avons grante a nostre tres cher et bien ame dame Kateryne de Swynford
la garde et mariage de ly pur Blaunche sa file marier, ensemblement
ovesque la garde de les terres de nous tenuz a ly appartenantz tanque
a son plain age ; voulons et vous mandons que le dit heir vous faces
sauvement garder tanque a temps que la dite dame Katerine envoiera a
vous pur l'eir suisdit, et que a cel temps vous ly delivrez au dite
dame Katerine ovesque la garde de les terres avantditz. Et cestes
etc. Donnee etc. a Hertford le xiij. jour de Janver l'an xlviij.

This Robert Deyncourt, son and heir of Robert Deyncourt, was born
about 1364 and seems to have lived until 1441.



Margaret = 1. Robert de Tibetot = 2. John Cheyne
..................................................................................................................................................................................


John Deyncourt, father of Roger, seemingly descends from the previous
Deyncourt marriage in the main Branch, i.e. the marriage of John
Deyncourt, who died v.p., before 6 Jan 1326/7, and whose children appear
to have been . . . .

Edmund = Joan de Clinton
William = Millicent la Zouche THE MAIN LINE
John = ?. Father of John Deyncourt knight of Blankney Lincoln (d.22
Nov 1393) = Margery de Erdeswyk.

His notes:

Represented Lincolnshire in Parliament 11 Edward III. (1337)
Represented Nottinghamshire in Parliament 14 Edward III. (1341)
Goaler for John King of France at Somerton Castle 1359-1360.


Some notes on John (d.1393)

1381-1394 East Sussex Record Office: The Glynde Place Archives GLY/3469

Account rolls of the household of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster
(1340-1399), which were found acting as backing to the Waleys
Cartulary [MS. GLY/1139] when this was repaired. They consist of items
from various classes of household accounts and were placed haphazardly
when employed as backing. Each roll of the cartulary had ten
membranes, which were heavily mutilated in their secondary function.

The accounts were originally filed at the head, which was cut off when
they were re-used, so that no headings survive and they can now be
dated only from internal evidence. Both edges have also been trimmed,
but fortunately the left side is largely without serious depletion.

Two types of account survive, checkrolls of the household and stables
(17 mm.) and journals of the household (3 mm.). The checkrolls state
the name of each member in residence and the daily allowance made.
Each membrane is divided vertically into columns for each day (day and
date, but rarely month, stated at the head) so that the days of
residence of each person can be tabulated. Horses are listed at the
end, giving name and colour or kind, or else the owner and number
maintained. The journals state the totals of daily expenses of each
department (Hall, Pantry, Buttery, Brewery, Scullery, Saltery, Stable,
Almonry).

The membranes have been placed in provisional date order and reference
is given to the original order when used as backing by a number in
brackets, being sequences of 1-10 for rolls A and B respectively.
Acknowledgment is made to Mr. K. B. McFarlane of Oxford for his help
in dating these membranes.

CHECKROLLS OF THE HOUSEHOLD AND STABLE

Two groups of accounts related by date and composition of household
have been identified. The first contains a membrane (2) at the head of
which part of the date including the regnal year has not been cut away
and is probably 4 [Richard II]. If we can assume that this group was
taken from a file of one year, the dates can be assigned to 1381.

(1) Tues. 1-31 Jan. [1381] Roll B.10.

The alternative years on which Jan. 1 fell on Tuesday are 1376, 1381
and 1387. The presence of Walter Diss and Sir John Fernandes puts it
before 1387 and their appearance on the following roll also confirms
1381 as the probable date.

(2) Mon. 1-21 [April, 1381] 4 [Ric. II, 1381]. Roll A.8.

The knights listed here are mainly also on the roll above suggesting a
near date.

(3) Tues. 4-Sun. 30 [June 1381]. Roll A.5.

This membrane has been shorn on the left so that few names survive.
Those which do are related to this group.

(4) Mon. 1-31 [July 1381]. Roll A.7.

Mentions the Countess of Pembroke. Lancaster's daughter Elizabeth
married John, Earl of Pembroke, on 24 Jan. 1380 and the marriage was
dissolved on 24 Feb. 1383.

(5) Sun. 1-[? Sept. or Dec. 1381]. Roll B.5.

Has the same knights as the previous rolls.

The second group, also associated by similar membership, are dated by
their relationship with (9) which because it has a column for 29th
Feb., is securely dated, being a leap year with 29th Feb. on a
Thursday, as 1392. Dates between 1391 and 1394 are alternatives for
all the 12 membranes in this group and further internal evidence set
out below confirms this dating.

(6) Wed. 1.-[29 or after, Mar. or Nov. 1391]. Roll B.6.

Mentions Dame Katherine Swynford and her four children by John of
Gaunt, John, Henry, Jane [Joan] and Thomas Beaufort. In March 1392
Jane married Sir Robert Ferrers, [2nd] Baron Ferrers of Wemme, co.
Salop, and appears in these accounts subsequently as Jane Ferrers. Her
husband was also a member of the household. Sir John Deincourt, member
of the household, died in 1393.

(7) Mon. 1-31 [Aug. 1390, May 1391 or Jan. 1392]. Roll A.9.

This roll contains the name Jane Beaufort and is therefore prior to
Mar. 1392.

(8) Thurs. 1-23 Feb. [1392]. Roll B.4.

The presence of Sir John Deincourt makes later alternative dates
impossible while Thomas Chaucer and John Kenningham make earlier ones
unlikely.

Though the month is not stated in the heading, there is this entry
opposite the name of Roger Trumpyngton: 'Md. quod dictus Rogerus
allocatus pro vadio predicto a primo die Februarii usque xvij die
eiusdem mense utroque die eque pro xvij dies per diem vij.d. ob.'

(9) Fri. 1 -4 Dec., Mon. 15 - 22 Jan., Sun. 11 - 15 Feb. [1391/2].
Roll B.9.

In this roll the months are named. The fact that it overlaps part of
(8) in date and that those marked absent here were present in the
former roll indicates this as the checkroll of another place. Sir John
Deincourt was shown as absent in (8) from 11 Feb. onwards, while in
this roll his presence commences at this date.

(10) Fri. 23 [Feb.]-Sat. 30 [Mar. 1392]. Roll B.1.

This roll is securely dated by the occurrence of leap year, containing
Thurs. 29 Feb. within its period. It thus follows consecutively upon
(8) and comparison with the entries for 22 Feb. in that roll confirm
the connection. The entries for 23 Feb. in (8) are few and misleading.
Sir John Deincourt is mentioned but the allowances for horses are not
entered and thus the names of the family in residence are not given.

(11) [Days cut away at top, before Mar. 1392]. Roll A.1.

Sir John Deincourt and Jane Beaufort both mentioned.

(12) [Days mutilated, between Mar. 1392-1393]. Roll A.2.

Sir John Deincourt and Jane Ferrers both mentioned. For the change in
style of the latter see note on (6) above.

(13) Mon. 1-31, Thurs. 1-8 [July-Aug. 1392 or Dec. 1393-Jan. 1394].
Roll A4.

Although the knights' names have been cut away, Jane Ferrers appears
on the reverse, dating the roll after Mar. 1392. Between the two
alternative dates remaining no decision has been reached.

(14) [Days cut away, after Mar. 1392]. Roll A.6.

Jane Ferrers mentioned; knights' names cut away.

(15) Sat. 1-30 Nov. [1393]. Roll B.7.

Names cut away. Endorsed: William Eyr[myn], Treasurer. On stylistic
grounds this and the two succeeding rolls are assigned to the
post-1390 group.

(16) [Sun. 1]-Sat. 28 [Feb.], Sun. 1-[?, Mar. 1394]. Roll B.8.

Names cut away, but as Sat. 28 is called 'ult.' it is clearly February
and the alternatives are not really probable.

(17) Fri. 13-Mon. 30 (ult.) [Nov. 1394]. Roll A.3.

Names cut away. Sept. 1392 or Apr. 1393 are possible alternatives.

JOURNAL OF THE HOUSEHOLD

(18) Sun. 5-19 July [1383]. Roll B.3. At Kenilworth.

(19) Mon. 20 July-1 Aug. [1383]. Roll A.10. At Kenilworth.

Against the entry for Sat. 25 July it is noted: 'Isto die recessit
domina Regina de Kenill' usque Tutbury cum parte familie.' The queen
is Constance, Queen of Castile, whom John of Gaunt married in 1372.

(20) Sun. 30 Aug.-6 Sept. [1383]. Roll B.2.

The household moves to Banbury, to Henley, to Maidenhead and finally
to Westminster during the period of this account. Reference to the
lord's daughter Katherine at Kenilworth at the commencement rules out
the alternative dates of 1388 and 1394, as she was married to John of
Castile in 1387 and presumably went to Spain in this year. Apparently
all three rolls form part of the journal for the half-year ending
Michaelmas 1383.
(G.E.C. Complete Peerage, X, pp. 395, 396.)
..................................................................................................................................................................................

From John of Gaunt's Register 1379-1383.
11 Jan 1380. Kenilworth Castle.
Order to John Deyncourt, esquire, steward and constable of
Kenilworth castle, to pay to Robert Cosyn, the duke's baker (pestour),
26s. 4d. and a maille, for necessary repairs made by him in the
"pistrine" of the duke's household in the castle of Kenilworth,
receiving details of the expenses for the same. Due allowance, etc.

23 Jul 1387. Coimbra. [in Parongale]
Johan, etc., a noz treschiers et tresbiennamez monsire Robert
Swillington, monsire Thomas Hungerford, monsirs Johan Pole de
Neuburgh, sire Johan Scarle, Thomas Hesulden et autres de nostre
counseille en Engleterre, saluz. Purceo que par acompte fait parente
nos treschers et bienamez monsire Johan Deyncourt, monsire Richard
Abberbury, William Castell et Thomas Tuttebury pur nous dune part, et
nostre trescher bachiler Thomas Foog pur luy et sa retenue en ceste
nostre presente viage sur la conquest de nostre reume de Spaigne
dautre part, trove est que nous devons a dit monsire Thomas mille sys
cents cessante et quinze livres quaturze sould dys deneris maile,
dount il ad une bille devers luy soubz signet de dit Thomas Tutbury,
et de quele somme il nous prie de assignment, nous voullons et vous
mandons que, meintenant veue cestes, vous luy facez lettres de garrant
pur receivre des issues de nostre receite de Pountfriet sys cents
livres dargent, et des issues de nostre manoir de Sombourne cynk cents
livres dargent, et des issues de nostre receite de Peveneseye et de
Wylington et de tout nostre receite en Soussex cynk cents cessante et
quinze livres tresze sould dys deneris maile, sitost come bonement ceo
purrount estre paiez pur autres charges que sur icelles noz receitz
sount pardevant. Purvieuz toutfoitz que soloum ceo qil soit ensi paie
du dit dette. Et cestes noz lettres vous ent serront garrant. Donnee
soubz nostre prive seal a Quymbre en Parongale le xxiij. jour de
Jullet lan de grace MCCC IIII.xx VII.


Some notes on Roger, son of John, son of John (perhaps). Roger's sister
Alianora married John Poyntz of North Okendon, near the manor of Gaynes
in Upminster held by Roger.

Roger Beauford, brother of Pope Gregory XI., during his imprisonment
at Kenilworth Castle, was godfather to Roger Deyncourt when he was
baptised on 21 May 1377.

Proof of Age, 7 Aug 1400.

1426/7 Essex Record Office D/DRu/T1/84
RUSSELL FAMILY OF COLCHESTER HALL,TAKELEY AND STUBBERS, NORTH OCKENDON
Dates of Creation 22 Jan., 1426/7.
Grant.
Robt. atte Hethe of Upminster (s. of William atte Hethe), on
decease of w. Agnes, to Jn. Stefne, Jn. Corbyn of Upminster and Joan
Gennor of North Ockendon .
Land and tenements with pasture and meadow, in North Ockendon [no
details].
Wtn: Roger Dencort, William Melman, John Poynys, William Ardale, Joan
Goodman.

1442-1450 P.R.O. C 1/15/91
Richard, son of William Burys. v. Roger Dencourt and John Felde,
feoffees for Richard and Margaret Felde.: Manor of Rokels.: Suffolk.
21-28 Henry VI

1444 Essex Record Office D/DL/T1/395
BARRETT LENNARD FAMILY OF AVELEY, KENT, SUSSEX, NORFOLK, CUMBERLAND,
IRELAND
Dates of Creation 3 September 1444
Grant from Tho. Copto, clerk, to Rob. Hotoft and Wm. Pert of
'Gosefords' in Stifford and S. Ockendon,which he had with Wm. Sayer of
Jn. Heere and others; also 3 ac. in S.Ockendon called 'Crowescroft',
which he had of Jn. Gladewyn and others; also a croft in Stifford
called 'Craweshawe' which he had of Deyncourt and Stevyn. Warranty
clause.
Witnesses: Sir Maurice Bruyn; Rog. Deyncourt, esq.; Rob. Wade; Jn.
Ardale: Jn. Copto. Seal.

1444/5 P.R.O. C 1/13/165 Richard, son of William Burys. v.
Roger Dancourt or Deyncourt and John Felde, feoffees for Richard and
Margaret Felde, deceased.: Manor of Rokels.: Suffolk. 23 Hen. VI
(1444/5)


On reading the above the whole thing seems very convoluted. I apologise
for that. The whole of the Deyncourt descent from the 14th century on
is very difficult to follow. Many Williams, Johns and Roberts etc.

I have established my lines by following the descent of the various
manors and smaller holdings in Derby, Notts. and Lincoln. The are all
covered in the many Deyncourt I.P.M's. for the period, the County
Historys and some in the various V.C.H. volumes.

This is the last reference (re. the Essex Deyncourts) to the northern
Deyncourt properties.

From Yeatman's History of Derby
32 Henry VI (1453-4)
Thomas Deyncourt (son and heir of Roger of Gayns in Upminster),
demised land to Thomas Southwyke in Lincs., Notts. & Derby.

I have a gedcom file which I sent as an attachment to Le Bateman to
assist him with his Hardwick query. If you would like a copy I will
gladly send it.

All the best,

Tony Ingham

On second thoughts I've attached the gedcom file. If you dont have a
Family History program, a Google search will show a Gedcom Reader
available as a free download. This Gedcom Reader program will handle the
gedcom file as an input.


Katheryn_Swynford wrote:

Hi Tony,

I'm feeling really dumb here, but I see that you reference:

John Deyncourt = Margery de Erdeswyk
|
-----------------------------------------------
| |
Roger Alianora

(sorry if the ASCII chart gets screwed up):

How are they relatred to Robert heir of Robert Deincourt? I haven't
been able to find much if anything at all on the Robert supposed
husband of Blanche Swynford... Of course, I just might be an idiot and
not know where to look @;-) As you will see, I clearly am not adverse
to fishing expeditions:

I happened upon (okay, got it via ILL in a fishing expedition) two
rolls of arms from Henry III and Edward III and, for the latter, it is
given for :

"Monsire Dayncourt, port d'asur, billite d'or, a une daunsy d'or ...
Monsire William Dayncourt, port d'argent, a une daunsy et billite,
sable"

[REF: _Rolls of Arms of the Reigns of Henry III. and Edward III._, ed.
Nicholas Harris Nicolas (London: William Pickering, 1829), p. 40]

Same family?

Kindest thanks,

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net






Katheryn_Swynford wrote:

Hi Tony,

I'm feeling really dumb here, but I see that you reference:

John Deyncourt = Margery de Erdeswyk
|
-----------------------------------------------
| |
Roger Alianora

(sorry if the ASCII chart gets screwed up):

How are they relatred to Robert heir of Robert Deincourt? I haven't
been able to find much if anything at all on the Robert supposed
husband of Blanche Swynford... Of course, I just might be an idiot and
not know where to look @;-) As you will see, I clearly am not adverse
to fishing expeditions:

I happened upon (okay, got it via ILL in a fishing expedition) two
rolls of arms from Henry III and Edward III and, for the latter, it is
given for :

"Monsire Dayncourt, port d'asur, billite d'or, a une daunsy d'or ...
Monsire William Dayncourt, port d'argent, a une daunsy et billite,
sable"

[REF: _Rolls of Arms of the Reigns of Henry III. and Edward III._, ed.
Nicholas Harris Nicolas (London: William Pickering, 1829), p. 40]

Same family?

Kindest thanks,

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net




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