RPA RAYNSFORD
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tony Ingham
RPA RAYNSFORD
Douglas,
You will really have to do a whole lot better than this.
Hope you deign to reply to this, but, knowing your penchant to avoid
owning up to your errors I wont feel as disappointed as I have with
previous corrections.
Yours in good scholarship,
Tony Ingham
Plantagenet Ancestry p. 246
Child of Elizabeth Fiennes, by Lawrence Raynsford, Knt.
1. JOHN RAYNSFORD, Knt., of Colchester and Bradfield, Essex, Alpheton
and Great Welnetham, Suffolk, etc., Esquire and Knight of the Body to
King Henry VII. born about 1461. He married (1st) ANNE STARKEY, died 26
Dec 1488, widow of John Writtle, Esq., and daughter and co-heiress of
Humphrey Starkey, Knt. They had one son, John. He married (2nd) after
1495 MARGARET SHAA (or SHAW), born about 1473 (aged 22 in 1495), widow
of Thomas Riche, of London, mercer, and possibly daughter of Edmund
Shaa, Knt., of London, and Horndon House and Ardern Hall, Essex, by his
wife, Julian. They had one daughter, Julian. He was "knighted June 1497
at the foot of London bridge, when Henry VII entered London after
defeating the Cornish rebels at the Battle of Blackheath," captain in
the French wars under Kings Henry VII and Henry VIII. He left a will
(P.C.C. 21 Maynwaring) dated 17 Sept. 1521, proved Feb. 1521/2.
P. Morant Hist. & Antiq. of Essex I (1768): 463-464 (confuses father and
son). T. Hawley et al Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558,1570, 1612 & 1634 I
(H.S.P. 13) (1878): 96 (1558 Vis.). Cal. I.P.M. Henry VII I (1898):
194, 422. S.H.A. Hervey Whelnetham Parish Regs. (Suffolk Green Books
15) (1910): 351-356. V.C.H. Essex 9 (1994): 64 (confuses father and son).
Child of John Raynsford, Knt., by Margaret Shaa.
a. JULIAN RAYNSFORD, married WILLIAM WALDEGRAVE, Knt., of Smallbridge
(in Bures St. Mary), Suffolk [see WALDEGRAVE 14] Ancestors of Edmund,
Edward, Richard & Matthew Kempe.
CORRECTIONS :
Anne Starkey, first wife of John Raynesford, died 22 Dec 1487.
John Raynsford married secondly, after 3 Mar 1503/4, Joan ILOME (alias
ILAM), born 1467 (Married John Shaa in 1479, when she was 12 years of
age. see Journal, 8, folios 258, 273.), widow of John SHAA, knight,
goldsmith of London, Mayor 1501-2, and daughter of Thomas Ilome, mercer
of London, by his wife, Joanne.
They had two daughters, Audrey & Julian.
You will really have to do a whole lot better than this.
Hope you deign to reply to this, but, knowing your penchant to avoid
owning up to your errors I wont feel as disappointed as I have with
previous corrections.
Yours in good scholarship,
Tony Ingham
Plantagenet Ancestry p. 246
Child of Elizabeth Fiennes, by Lawrence Raynsford, Knt.
1. JOHN RAYNSFORD, Knt., of Colchester and Bradfield, Essex, Alpheton
and Great Welnetham, Suffolk, etc., Esquire and Knight of the Body to
King Henry VII. born about 1461. He married (1st) ANNE STARKEY, died 26
Dec 1488, widow of John Writtle, Esq., and daughter and co-heiress of
Humphrey Starkey, Knt. They had one son, John. He married (2nd) after
1495 MARGARET SHAA (or SHAW), born about 1473 (aged 22 in 1495), widow
of Thomas Riche, of London, mercer, and possibly daughter of Edmund
Shaa, Knt., of London, and Horndon House and Ardern Hall, Essex, by his
wife, Julian. They had one daughter, Julian. He was "knighted June 1497
at the foot of London bridge, when Henry VII entered London after
defeating the Cornish rebels at the Battle of Blackheath," captain in
the French wars under Kings Henry VII and Henry VIII. He left a will
(P.C.C. 21 Maynwaring) dated 17 Sept. 1521, proved Feb. 1521/2.
P. Morant Hist. & Antiq. of Essex I (1768): 463-464 (confuses father and
son). T. Hawley et al Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558,1570, 1612 & 1634 I
(H.S.P. 13) (1878): 96 (1558 Vis.). Cal. I.P.M. Henry VII I (1898):
194, 422. S.H.A. Hervey Whelnetham Parish Regs. (Suffolk Green Books
15) (1910): 351-356. V.C.H. Essex 9 (1994): 64 (confuses father and son).
Child of John Raynsford, Knt., by Margaret Shaa.
a. JULIAN RAYNSFORD, married WILLIAM WALDEGRAVE, Knt., of Smallbridge
(in Bures St. Mary), Suffolk [see WALDEGRAVE 14] Ancestors of Edmund,
Edward, Richard & Matthew Kempe.
CORRECTIONS :
Anne Starkey, first wife of John Raynesford, died 22 Dec 1487.
John Raynsford married secondly, after 3 Mar 1503/4, Joan ILOME (alias
ILAM), born 1467 (Married John Shaa in 1479, when she was 12 years of
age. see Journal, 8, folios 258, 273.), widow of John SHAA, knight,
goldsmith of London, Mayor 1501-2, and daughter of Thomas Ilome, mercer
of London, by his wife, Joanne.
They had two daughters, Audrey & Julian.
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Dear Tony ~
Thank you for the corrections. Much appreciated. I'll be glad to take
a look at this. When you have a moment, can you please supply your
sources?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thank you for the corrections. Much appreciated. I'll be glad to take
a look at this. When you have a moment, can you please supply your
sources?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Well, as long as sources are being requested, how about giving us yours
- not all of them for the whole paragraph, but those for the specific
relationship in question, the marriage of John Raynsford to the widow
Margaret (Shaa) Riche. On what basis did you make this conclusion?
I do have to wonder about the placement of the word "possibly" in the
quoted paragraph. The ipm of Hugh Sha makes Margaret Ryche his sister
and coheiress, while that of Edmund Sha makes Hugh his son and heir.
The ipm of Juliana names Margaret as daughter and heiress. IIRC, she is
also mentioned in the wills of Edmund and Juliana. Further the Brown
family wills (representing the other coheiress) attest to a connection
with the Rich family (including mention of widow Margaret Rich in 1515).
At least one of the above ipms has been consulted, as it is the source
for the age given Margaret ("aged 22 in 1495"). Thus, it might be
reasonable to indicate that Margaret, wife of John was possibly the same
as Margaret Shaa, daughter of Edmund and formerly wife of Thomas Riche,
but why doubt that Margaret, wife of Thomas Riche was daughter of Edmund
Shaa?
Of course this would all be rendered moot if the correction provided by
Tony Ingham can be supported. I note that at least one London
Visitation relates that Margaret, widow of John Shaa remarried to John
Raynsford. The John Shaa in question is made father of Edmund Shaa,
husband of Lora Wentworth, and hence would be the Mayor, nephew of the
earlier Mayor Edmund (with whom the younger Edmund is confused in the
Visitation).
taf
Dear Tony ~
Thank you for the corrections. Much appreciated. I'll be glad to take
a look at this. When you have a moment, can you please supply your
sources?
Well, as long as sources are being requested, how about giving us yours
- not all of them for the whole paragraph, but those for the specific
relationship in question, the marriage of John Raynsford to the widow
Margaret (Shaa) Riche. On what basis did you make this conclusion?
I do have to wonder about the placement of the word "possibly" in the
quoted paragraph. The ipm of Hugh Sha makes Margaret Ryche his sister
and coheiress, while that of Edmund Sha makes Hugh his son and heir.
The ipm of Juliana names Margaret as daughter and heiress. IIRC, she is
also mentioned in the wills of Edmund and Juliana. Further the Brown
family wills (representing the other coheiress) attest to a connection
with the Rich family (including mention of widow Margaret Rich in 1515).
At least one of the above ipms has been consulted, as it is the source
for the age given Margaret ("aged 22 in 1495"). Thus, it might be
reasonable to indicate that Margaret, wife of John was possibly the same
as Margaret Shaa, daughter of Edmund and formerly wife of Thomas Riche,
but why doubt that Margaret, wife of Thomas Riche was daughter of Edmund
Shaa?
Of course this would all be rendered moot if the correction provided by
Tony Ingham can be supported. I note that at least one London
Visitation relates that Margaret, widow of John Shaa remarried to John
Raynsford. The John Shaa in question is made father of Edmund Shaa,
husband of Lora Wentworth, and hence would be the Mayor, nephew of the
earlier Mayor Edmund (with whom the younger Edmund is confused in the
Visitation).
taf
-
An. Archer
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Dear Doug et al,
Hanging on a wall in Gupshill Manor, Tewkesbury, is a family tree of the
Raynsford family. It states that the manor had been held by the Raynsfords,
but I have not seen proof of this. Two of the early Raynsfords were married
to Danvers. In particular I cite an Alice Danvers who married a John
Raynsford. This Alice was the niece of an Agnes Fray (nee Danvers) by her
half brother John Danvers.
Agnes Fray had a daughter, Elizabeth Fray who married Thomas Waldegrave.
Elizabeth had 3 sons & 4 daus. One son named William married Margery
Wentworth and Margery had 3 sons and 2 daus. One of Margery's sons named
William seems to be the one who married Julian Raynsford.
At the battle of Tewkesbury in 1471, Dame Agnes Fray (nee Danvers) was
married to Lord John Wenlock and was almost certainly escorting queen
Margaret. If it could be shown that the 'original' Gupshill (or Gubs Hill)
manor was owned by a close relative of Agnes it would add credence to the
rumour that queen Margaret had stayed there. The 'original' manor may be the
earth works known as Queen Margaret's Camp. This appears to be the ruin of a
moated manor, but I have been unable, so far, to find any deeds that relate
to it.
Adrian
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1127219673.091311.57660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hanging on a wall in Gupshill Manor, Tewkesbury, is a family tree of the
Raynsford family. It states that the manor had been held by the Raynsfords,
but I have not seen proof of this. Two of the early Raynsfords were married
to Danvers. In particular I cite an Alice Danvers who married a John
Raynsford. This Alice was the niece of an Agnes Fray (nee Danvers) by her
half brother John Danvers.
Agnes Fray had a daughter, Elizabeth Fray who married Thomas Waldegrave.
Elizabeth had 3 sons & 4 daus. One son named William married Margery
Wentworth and Margery had 3 sons and 2 daus. One of Margery's sons named
William seems to be the one who married Julian Raynsford.
At the battle of Tewkesbury in 1471, Dame Agnes Fray (nee Danvers) was
married to Lord John Wenlock and was almost certainly escorting queen
Margaret. If it could be shown that the 'original' Gupshill (or Gubs Hill)
manor was owned by a close relative of Agnes it would add credence to the
rumour that queen Margaret had stayed there. The 'original' manor may be the
earth works known as Queen Margaret's Camp. This appears to be the ruin of a
moated manor, but I have been unable, so far, to find any deeds that relate
to it.
Adrian
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1127219673.091311.57660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Tony ~
Thank you for the corrections. Much appreciated. I'll be glad to take
a look at this. When you have a moment, can you please supply your
sources?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Tony Ingham
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Douglas,
Have found the I.P.M. which agrees with your date. Also found some
working notes where I have changed Anne's date of death from bef. 10 Apr
1489 to 22 Dec 1487.
10 April 1489 MATERIALS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE REIGN OF HENRY VII.
Grant to Reginald Bray, one of the knights for the king’s body, and John
Shaa, or Sha, of the custody of the manors of Ramsey, Wrabnase, and
Little Chisell, and the advowson of Little Chisell, co. Essex, which
have come into the king’s hands, as well by the death of Anne wife of
John Writell, esq., who held the same in dowry, as by the minority of
John son of the said John Writell, to hold until the determination of
the said minority. Further grant of the custody of all the lands which
have come into the hands of the crown by the same minority, or by the
death of Catherine wife of Richard Hawte, knt., or any other ancestor of
the said John Writell. Given at the castle of Hertford. Enrolled May 2.
P.S. No. 65. Pat. m. 9 (23).
I'm sorry that as I can't offer any source. I'm inclined to think that
it was an error on my part. Your I.P.M. date should be correct, i.e. 26
Dec 1488.
One thing though! In these notes I have a working Calendar of Anne's dates.
13 Oct 1485 John her husband died.
29 Jun 1486 John the son wardship to John Shaa etc.
28 Jul 1486 Humphrey Starkey died.
2 Sep 1486 Anne disinherited.
22 Dec 1487 Anne died.
Do you have any ideas on the second last line?
........................................................................................................................................................................................
From The Merchant Class of Medieval London by Sylvia L. Thrupp.
SHAA, JOHN, goldsmith, alderman 1496-1504, knighted 1497. (Beaven, II,
19). Nephew to Sir Edmund (see latter's will). Married daughter of
Thomas ILAM, 1479, when she was aged 12. (Journal of the Common Council
[city of London archives] 8, fols. 258,273). Died 1504, survived by wife
Margaret, three sons, all under age, and daughter married under age to
his ward, John Writell.
1503/4 Calendar of Close Rolls 19 Henry VII. Membrane 3d. pp. 134-5.
381. Indenture between John Tate and Bartholomew Reede knights, John
Kyngesmelle and Thomas Marowe serjeants at law, Thomas Poyntz esquire,
William Shragger clerk and John Mundy goldsmith of London, friends to
Margaret lady Shaa, sometime wife of Sir John Shaa knight, and John
Raynsford knight for the king's body : Raynsford to marry lady Shaa
before St. John Baptist next, if she is agreeable ; and 'for that that
it is right well knowen that the seid lady Shaa hath great poscessions
of londes which were hir late husbondes duryng hir liff and also grete
substaunce of goodes,' he will make estate to her for life before
Pentecost next of Netherhall, Bradfeldhall, Overhall Fayties in
Bradfeld, Michelles, Grovehous and Ramsay co. Essex, with all his lands,
franchises markets, fairs, leets, courts etc. in Tendryng hundred,
without impeachment of waste except in felling trees of timber ; if she
makes any wood-sales, she shall enclose the wood after felling 'for the
savegard of the spryng there.'
Sealed 3 March, 19 Henry VII. English
Memorandum of acknowledgment, 17 May.
.....................................................................................................................................................
Have attached John Raynesford's will. Audrey Raynesford, Thomas Darcy
and their marriage are all found there.
....................................................................................................................................................
So there we are.
Thank you for your courteous and prompt reply,
Tony Ingham
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Have found the I.P.M. which agrees with your date. Also found some
working notes where I have changed Anne's date of death from bef. 10 Apr
1489 to 22 Dec 1487.
10 April 1489 MATERIALS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE REIGN OF HENRY VII.
Grant to Reginald Bray, one of the knights for the king’s body, and John
Shaa, or Sha, of the custody of the manors of Ramsey, Wrabnase, and
Little Chisell, and the advowson of Little Chisell, co. Essex, which
have come into the king’s hands, as well by the death of Anne wife of
John Writell, esq., who held the same in dowry, as by the minority of
John son of the said John Writell, to hold until the determination of
the said minority. Further grant of the custody of all the lands which
have come into the hands of the crown by the same minority, or by the
death of Catherine wife of Richard Hawte, knt., or any other ancestor of
the said John Writell. Given at the castle of Hertford. Enrolled May 2.
P.S. No. 65. Pat. m. 9 (23).
I'm sorry that as I can't offer any source. I'm inclined to think that
it was an error on my part. Your I.P.M. date should be correct, i.e. 26
Dec 1488.
One thing though! In these notes I have a working Calendar of Anne's dates.
13 Oct 1485 John her husband died.
29 Jun 1486 John the son wardship to John Shaa etc.
28 Jul 1486 Humphrey Starkey died.
2 Sep 1486 Anne disinherited.
22 Dec 1487 Anne died.
Do you have any ideas on the second last line?
........................................................................................................................................................................................
From The Merchant Class of Medieval London by Sylvia L. Thrupp.
SHAA, JOHN, goldsmith, alderman 1496-1504, knighted 1497. (Beaven, II,
19). Nephew to Sir Edmund (see latter's will). Married daughter of
Thomas ILAM, 1479, when she was aged 12. (Journal of the Common Council
[city of London archives] 8, fols. 258,273). Died 1504, survived by wife
Margaret, three sons, all under age, and daughter married under age to
his ward, John Writell.
1503/4 Calendar of Close Rolls 19 Henry VII. Membrane 3d. pp. 134-5.
381. Indenture between John Tate and Bartholomew Reede knights, John
Kyngesmelle and Thomas Marowe serjeants at law, Thomas Poyntz esquire,
William Shragger clerk and John Mundy goldsmith of London, friends to
Margaret lady Shaa, sometime wife of Sir John Shaa knight, and John
Raynsford knight for the king's body : Raynsford to marry lady Shaa
before St. John Baptist next, if she is agreeable ; and 'for that that
it is right well knowen that the seid lady Shaa hath great poscessions
of londes which were hir late husbondes duryng hir liff and also grete
substaunce of goodes,' he will make estate to her for life before
Pentecost next of Netherhall, Bradfeldhall, Overhall Fayties in
Bradfeld, Michelles, Grovehous and Ramsay co. Essex, with all his lands,
franchises markets, fairs, leets, courts etc. in Tendryng hundred,
without impeachment of waste except in felling trees of timber ; if she
makes any wood-sales, she shall enclose the wood after felling 'for the
savegard of the spryng there.'
Sealed 3 March, 19 Henry VII. English
Memorandum of acknowledgment, 17 May.
.....................................................................................................................................................
Have attached John Raynesford's will. Audrey Raynesford, Thomas Darcy
and their marriage are all found there.
....................................................................................................................................................
So there we are.
Thank you for your courteous and prompt reply,
Tony Ingham
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Dear Tony ~
Thank you for the corrections. Much appreciated. I'll be glad to take
a look at this. When you have a moment, can you please supply your
sources?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Tony Ingham wrote:
Just to be more precise, "He died 26 December, 19 Henry VII. Edmund
Shaa, aged 12 1/2 and more, is his son and heir. By his last will he
directed inter alia that Margaret, his wife, should have all his manors,
.. . . . with remainder, immediately after his decease, to Edmund Shaa,
his elder son, Reynold Shaa, his next son living, and Thomas Shaa, his
younger son . . ." He is also given by historical sources an older
daughter, Etheldreda, married to William Ayloffe, and by the (flawed)
1568 London Visitation, Etheldreda and a Juliana, married to Richard
Fowler of Ricott, Oxon. (but neither Reynold nor Anna (Shaa) Writell).
This 1568 Visit. (as published) names John's wife as Margaret, daughter
of Flam (sic) of London, and gives his son Edmund (married to Lora
Wentworth) a daughter daughter and heiress Alice, wife of William Poley,
but also another daughter, "x. ux Will' Browne filij Joh'is Browne
Maioris London & militis" (clearly a later and erroneous addition).
This has led to no end of confusion, the wife of Browne actually being
daughter of John's uncle, Mayor Edmund and not of John's son.
Unfortunately, due to this many derivative sources now name Mayor
Edmund's wife as Lora Wentworth, and/or his mother as "Margaret Flame
(sic)", both of which belong to the younger Edmund instead.
taf
From The Merchant Class of Medieval London by Sylvia L. Thrupp.
SHAA, JOHN, goldsmith, alderman 1496-1504, knighted 1497. (Beaven, II,
19). Nephew to Sir Edmund (see latter's will). Married daughter of
Thomas ILAM, 1479, when she was aged 12. (Journal of the Common Council
[city of London archives] 8, fols. 258,273). Died 1504, survived by wife
Margaret, three sons, all under age, and daughter married under age to
his ward, John Writell.
Just to be more precise, "He died 26 December, 19 Henry VII. Edmund
Shaa, aged 12 1/2 and more, is his son and heir. By his last will he
directed inter alia that Margaret, his wife, should have all his manors,
.. . . . with remainder, immediately after his decease, to Edmund Shaa,
his elder son, Reynold Shaa, his next son living, and Thomas Shaa, his
younger son . . ." He is also given by historical sources an older
daughter, Etheldreda, married to William Ayloffe, and by the (flawed)
1568 London Visitation, Etheldreda and a Juliana, married to Richard
Fowler of Ricott, Oxon. (but neither Reynold nor Anna (Shaa) Writell).
This 1568 Visit. (as published) names John's wife as Margaret, daughter
of Flam (sic) of London, and gives his son Edmund (married to Lora
Wentworth) a daughter daughter and heiress Alice, wife of William Poley,
but also another daughter, "x. ux Will' Browne filij Joh'is Browne
Maioris London & militis" (clearly a later and erroneous addition).
This has led to no end of confusion, the wife of Browne actually being
daughter of John's uncle, Mayor Edmund and not of John's son.
Unfortunately, due to this many derivative sources now name Mayor
Edmund's wife as Lora Wentworth, and/or his mother as "Margaret Flame
(sic)", both of which belong to the younger Edmund instead.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
[snip]
I note that the new DNB says of Ayloffe, "he had in 1507 married Audrey,
daughter of alderman Sir John Shaa, the London goldsmith, and widow of
John Wrytell."
[. . . still waiting for an explanation of why Margaret Shaa, wife of
John Raynsford, was given as the widow of Thomas Riche. Was it just a
'name's the same' supposition, or was there a flawed sorce that led to
this (apparently erroneous) conclusion? If this group is about
discussing genealogy, as we have all been reminded, it would be as
useful to discuss where one went wrong, so those less experienced can
learn what to avoid, as it is to describe how one arrives at the right
decision. Unfortunately, too little of the last appears here as well,
discoveries frequently only being proclaimed, rather than the process of
discovery being detailed.]
taf
Tony Ingham wrote:
From The Merchant Class of Medieval London by Sylvia L. Thrupp.
SHAA, JOHN, goldsmith, alderman 1496-1504, knighted 1497. (Beaven, II,
19). Nephew to Sir Edmund (see latter's will). Married daughter of
Thomas ILAM, 1479, when she was aged 12. (Journal of the Common
Council [city of London archives] 8, fols. 258,273). Died 1504,
survived by wife Margaret, three sons, all under age, and daughter
married under age to his ward, John Writell.
[snip]
He is also given by historical sources an older
daughter, Etheldreda, married to William Ayloffe, and by the (flawed)
1568 London Visitation, Etheldreda and a Juliana, married to Richard
Fowler of Ricott, Oxon. (but neither Reynold nor Anna (Shaa) Writell).
I note that the new DNB says of Ayloffe, "he had in 1507 married Audrey,
daughter of alderman Sir John Shaa, the London goldsmith, and widow of
John Wrytell."
[. . . still waiting for an explanation of why Margaret Shaa, wife of
John Raynsford, was given as the widow of Thomas Riche. Was it just a
'name's the same' supposition, or was there a flawed sorce that led to
this (apparently erroneous) conclusion? If this group is about
discussing genealogy, as we have all been reminded, it would be as
useful to discuss where one went wrong, so those less experienced can
learn what to avoid, as it is to describe how one arrives at the right
decision. Unfortunately, too little of the last appears here as well,
discoveries frequently only being proclaimed, rather than the process of
discovery being detailed.]
taf
-
Tony Ingham
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Tod et al,
I think that, somehow, the mouse has crept out, stolen the cheese and
retreated to his humble abode.
Possibly savoured the cheese, found it indigestible and is remaining
silent (as a good mouse should).
There is a great amount of input going in, resulting in not one iota of
discussion of the subject matter.
Come on, let us all be collegial!
Tony Ingham
P.S. Todd, am still waiting for your reply re. the wills of John and
Alice Shaa, parents of John Shaa (d. 1503).
Tony Ingham wrote:
I think that, somehow, the mouse has crept out, stolen the cheese and
retreated to his humble abode.
Possibly savoured the cheese, found it indigestible and is remaining
silent (as a good mouse should).
There is a great amount of input going in, resulting in not one iota of
discussion of the subject matter.
Come on, let us all be collegial!
Tony Ingham
P.S. Todd, am still waiting for your reply re. the wills of John and
Alice Shaa, parents of John Shaa (d. 1503).
Tony Ingham wrote:
Tod et al,
I think that, somehow, the mouse has crept out, stolen the cheese and
retreated to his humble abode.
Possibly savoured the cheese, found it indigestible and is remaining
silent (as a good mouse should).
There is a great amount of input going in, resulting in not one iota
of discussion of the subject matter.
Come on, let us all be collegial!
Tony Ingham
P.S. Todd, am still waiting for your reply re. the wills of John and
Alice Shaa, parents of John Shaa (d. 1503).
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Tony Ingham wrote:
From The Merchant Class of Medieval London by Sylvia L. Thrupp.
SHAA, JOHN, goldsmith, alderman 1496-1504, knighted 1497. (Beaven,
II, 19). Nephew to Sir Edmund (see latter's will). Married daughter
of Thomas ILAM, 1479, when she was aged 12. (Journal of the Common
Council [city of London archives] 8, fols. 258,273). Died 1504,
survived by wife Margaret, three sons, all under age, and daughter
married under age to his ward, John Writell.
[snip]
He is also given by historical sources an older daughter,
Etheldreda, married to William Ayloffe, and by the (flawed) 1568
London Visitation, Etheldreda and a Juliana, married to Richard
Fowler of Ricott, Oxon. (but neither Reynold nor Anna (Shaa) Writell).
I note that the new DNB says of Ayloffe, "he had in 1507 married
Audrey, daughter of alderman Sir John Shaa, the London goldsmith, and
widow of John Wrytell."
[. . . still waiting for an explanation of why Margaret Shaa, wife of
John Raynsford, was given as the widow of Thomas Riche. Was it just
a 'name's the same' supposition, or was there a flawed sorce that led
to this (apparently erroneous) conclusion? If this group is about
discussing genealogy, as we have all been reminded, it would be as
useful to discuss where one went wrong, so those less experienced can
learn what to avoid, as it is to describe how one arrives at the
right decision. Unfortunately, too little of the last appears here
as well, discoveries frequently only being proclaimed, rather than
the process of discovery being detailed.]
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: RPA RAYNSFORD
Tony Ingham wrote:
I must have missed that question (or was this something that you
emailed? - I have had a run of computer disasters and have lost a lot of
stuff).
taf
P.S. Todd, am still waiting for your reply re. the wills of John and
Alice Shaa, parents of John Shaa (d. 1503).
I must have missed that question (or was this something that you
emailed? - I have had a run of computer disasters and have lost a lot of
stuff).
taf