C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincolnshi

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Douglas Richardson royala

C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincolnshi

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 17 sep 2005 20:56:52

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 96, footnote d (sub Ros) correctly states
that Sir Robert de Roos (died 1285), of Helmsley, Yorkshire, and his
wife, Isabel d'Aubeney, had a younger son named Robert. However, no
further particulars are given regarding the younger Robert de Roos'
subsequent history.

The charters below from the A2A Catalogue prove that the younger Robert
de Roos is the man of that name who subsequently held the manor of
Wyville, Lincolnshire. My file notes show that he and his wife,
Erneburge, were elsewhere enfeoffed with a third interest in the manor
of Gedney, Lincolnshire, by Simon le Constable, one of the co-heirs of
Fulk d'Oyry, of Gedney. This cadet branch of the Roos family is
better known as Roos of Gedney.

Research indicates that the manor of Wyville, Lincolshire subsequently
passed to Sir Robert de Roos' descendant and heiress, Eleanor Roos,
wife of John Paulet, Esq., which couple were in the process of selling
the manor in 1467 [Lincolnshire Archives: 1 Pearson-Gregory,
Reference: 1 PG/1/34, warrant or letter of attorney dated 1467 from
John Poulet and Alyanor Poulet to William Est instructing him to sell
on their behalf their manor of Hungerton and Wyville, Lincolnshire and
their other lands in Hungerton and Wyville and Bottesford, for as much
as he can get, but not for less than £100 (abstract of document
available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

One other minor correction: In the Complete Peerage's account of Sir
Robert de Roos, Sr. (died 1285) (husband of Isabel d'Aubeney), it is
stated that he was "of Belvoir." [Reference: Complete Peerage, 11
(1949): 95, line ]). No mention is made of Helmsley. However, in the
first charter copied below, Sir Robert de Roos, Sr., is specifically
called "of Hamlake" [i.e., of Helmsley] by his son, not of Belvoir.
So, it would appear Helmsley was his chief seat, not Belvoir.

For further particulars of the Roos family of Helmsley, Yorkshire, and
Wyville, and Gedney, Lincolnshire, please see my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Lincolnshire Archives: 1 Pearson-Gregory

Charter #1:
Reference: 1 PG/1/4
Gift and confirmation

Creation dates: Undated, late 13th c

Physical characteristics: Seal: missing. Fragmentary.

Scope and Content
From John Dru, son of William Dru of Wiwell [Wyville], to Sir Robert de
Ros, kt., son of Sir Robert de Ros of Hamlake, of one bovate of land

with appurtenances containing 10 acres of land in the east field and 10
acres of land in the west field in divers pieces of which one piece
lies on le Hegefurlong between the land of Robert Cocus on each side,
and abuts on the land of Geoffrey de la Dale towards the west and on
the land of the said John Dru towards the east. And one piece lies in
Heverthirne against the land of the said Sir Robert de Ros on the east
and abuts on the land of the parson of Wiwelle towards the north and on
the land of the said John Dru towards the south. and one piece lies in
le Breche between the land of Robert Cocus and the land of Nalle at the
spring, and abuts on the land of Robert le Masien towards the east. And
one piece lies in le West dale against the way which leads to Salteby
[Saltby, Leics.], and abuts on the land of the said Sir Robert de Ros
towards the east, and on the land of the said John Dru towards the
west. And one piece lies between two boundary-marks [divisas] against
le []ketwong, between the land of the said Sir Robert de Ros and the
land called Normantonland. And one piece lies on le Hegefurlong between
the land of the said Sir Robert de Ros and the land of Geoffrey de la
Dale, and abuts on the spinney towards the east. And one piece lies in
le Est Breche between the land of Peter le Masien and the land of the
grange of Stoke, and abuts on the moor of Stoke towards the south and
on the land of the said John Dru towards the north. And one piece lies
in Thikthirne between the land of Robert Cocus and the land of Nicholas
le Carter and abuts on the land of Alan Otis and Peter le Masien
towards the west, and on the land of Robert Cocus and Roger Riche
towards the east. And one piece lies in le Hegefurlong between the land
of the parson of Wiwell and the land of Geoffrey de la Dale and abuts
on the spinney towards the west. And one piece lies in le Hegefurlong
between the land of Robert le Masien and the land of Ralph son of
Alexander Halleman, and abuts on the spinney towards the west. And one
piece lies in Thikthirne between the land of the parson of Wiwell on
each side and abuts on the land of Robert le Masien towards the east.
And one piece lies between the land of Ralph son of Alexander Halleman
and le beckes which runs into [tendit] the fishpond, and abuts on the
land of Robert Cocus towards the west. And two pieces lie on each side
of Hungerton beckes. And one piece lies in le Hegefurlong between the
land of Geoffrey de la Dale and the land of Robert Cocus, and abuts on
the spinney towards the west. And one piece in the same place between
the land of Robert Cocus and that of Robert le Masien. And one piece
lies in le Hegefurlong between the land of Peter le Masien and the land
of Nicholas le Carter, and abuts on the spinney towards the west. And
also gift of all the meadow which he has in Thirnedale, in the fields
of Denton and Herloston [Harlaxton].

Witnesses: Dom. Saer de Huntingfeld, Dom. Philip de Pantona, knights,
Dom. Thomas de Seinlou, John de Nevile of Stoke, Robert de Denton,
Richard Sprackely de Pantona, Robert Cocus de Wiwell, Robert son of
Peter de Hungerton, Walter clerk of Wiwell and others.


Charter #2:
Reference: 1 PG/1/9
Gift and confirmation.

Creation dates: [19 Jan., 1307]

Physical characteristics: Seal: missing: tag.

Scope and Content
Symon son of Symon de Denton to Dom. Robert de Ros, lord of Wyvelle
[Wyville], of one rood of meadow in the meadow called Holdinges against
Denton near the meadow of the said Dom. Robert on the east, and
abutting on the meadow of Roger Frankeleyn on the south.

Consideration: 6s. 2d. sterling.

Witnesses: William son of Alan de Denton, Peter de Templo of the same,
Robert son of Alan of the same, Robert son of Peter de Hungyrton,
Robert called Cook of Wywel, [ ], clerk, of Denton.

Wywelle, Thursday before the Feast of SS. Fabian and Sebastian, 35 Edw.

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincol

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 sep 2005 23:44:49

Douglas

I was interested to see these details - thank you for posting them.
There is clearly a lot of very useful material being made easier to
find by means of A2A and PROCAT: good for you for finding it and
putting it into context - and sharing it with the list. I am sure many
of us have Ros interests.

If the Paulets still want £100 for Wyville, I would be delighted to
make them an offer...

MAR

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincol

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2005 21:53:01

In a message dated 9/17/05 1:09:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Research indicates that the manor of Wyville, Lincolshire subsequently
passed to Sir Robert de Roos' descendant and heiress, Eleanor Roos,
wife of John Paulet, Esq., which couple were in the process of selling
the manor in 1467 >>

I can add that on this Eleanor Roos and John Paulet, DNB "Paulet, Amias"
states that she was dau of Robert Roos of Gedney. Genealogics.org states that
this Robert's wife was Joan Skelton.

Genealogics.org gives this John Paulet parents of John Paulet (d 11 Jan 1437)
and Constance Poynings (d 27 Nov 1442). This couple is also mentioned
(without conflict to genealogics.org) in the DNB "Paulet, William" [1st Marquis of
Winchester]

A post to this newsgroups recently makes Constance a dau to Hugh de Poynings
d 26 Dec 1429 and his wife Phillipa Mortimer. And then again DNB "Paulet,
William" makes this Constance a granddau to Thomas Poynings, Lord St John d 1429

Will Johnson

Bevan Shortridge

RE: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincol

Legg inn av Bevan Shortridge » 19 sep 2005 22:24:01

Hello,

On that Sir Robert Roos of Gedney (d. 1441) there is some evidence I've been finding that suggests
he had two marriages - both wives being named Joan - and that his daughters Margaret
(Wittlebury, Henry Greene) and Eleanor (Dudley, Paulet) were from different mothers,
based on lands each inherited and passed on.

Usually Sir Robert is credited with one marriage, to Joan daughter of Alice de Ireby
(by Alice's Skelton or Tilliol husbands).

I will hopefully post what evidence there is for the two marriages of Sir Robert Roos this week, when I have more time.
Unless I have missed something on Gen-Medieval? I had not seen the different marriages commented on previously
in the Archives.

Regards,
Bevan Shortridge

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:50 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney,
Lincolnshire


In a message dated 9/17/05 1:09:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Research indicates that the manor of Wyville, Lincolshire subsequently
passed to Sir Robert de Roos' descendant and heiress, Eleanor Roos,
wife of John Paulet, Esq., which couple were in the process of selling
the manor in 1467 >>

I can add that on this Eleanor Roos and John Paulet, DNB "Paulet, Amias"
states that she was dau of Robert Roos of Gedney. Genealogics.org states that
this Robert's wife was Joan Skelton.

Genealogics.org gives this John Paulet parents of John Paulet (d 11 Jan 1437)
and Constance Poynings (d 27 Nov 1442). This couple is also mentioned
(without conflict to genealogics.org) in the DNB "Paulet, William" [1st Marquis of
Winchester]

A post to this newsgroups recently makes Constance a dau to Hugh de Poynings
d 26 Dec 1429 and his wife Phillipa Mortimer. And then again DNB "Paulet,
William" makes this Constance a granddau to Thomas Poynings, Lord St John d 1429

Will Johnson

Hal Bradley

RE: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney, Lincol

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 19 sep 2005 23:11:01

Dear Leo, Will, et al,

Apparently the wife of Sir Robert Roos of Gedney was actually Joan Tilliol.
Sir John de Skelton was her step-father, which has led to the confusion.
Wrottesley's "Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls" is the main source for Joan's
identification as a Skelton, and has been followed by many subsequent
authors.

Roskell asserts that the mother of Eleanor Roos, wife of Sir John Paulet,
was Joan Tilliol, not Joan de Skelton (cf. J.S. Roskell, "The History of
Parliament: The House of Commons, 1386-1421," 3:480-481; 4:377-380,
613-614). Roskell explains the complex litigation involving the lands of the
Irebys. Apparently, Alice de Ireby's second husband, John de Skelton, tried
to gain control of the Ireby lands by marrying his eldest son, Richard, to
Joan's sister, Katherine Tilliol. That marriage failed to produce any heirs.
Katherine married (2) James Kelom while her sister Joan married Robert Roos.
The later wranglings involved these parties.

Douglas Richardson has maintained that Joan was the daughter of John de
Skelton, contrary to Roskell's conclusions, because the Paulets later
quartered the Skelton arms. However, the quartering of the Skelton arms
occurs much later, when the facts of the descent had apparently become
obscured with time. Even heraldry can contain errors. Paul Reed has taken an
in-depth look at the land holdings and the dispositions of the lands and
concurs with Roskell that Joan was in fact a Tilliol, not a Skelton.

See Paul's posting to sgm re: the Roos family of Gedney dated 15 May 2002.
Typing "Roos/Ros of Gedney" into the search engine should bring up this one
post.

See also Paul C. Reed's "Additions and Corrections: Goddard," NEHGR 156:4
(Oct 2002), p. 391 where he states, "The mother of Eleanor de Roos was Joan
Tilliol, not Joan de Skelton", citing Roskell's HOP as listed above.

Sir Geoffrey de Tilliol, first husband of Alice de Ireby, and father of
Katherine & Joan appears to have a Plantagenet descent from Geoffrey
d'Anjou's (d. 1151) illegitimate son, Hamelin, Earl of Surrey, through the
Lascelle family. There is also a possible descent from Richard & Rohese (de
Boulogne) de Lucy, who have been discussed here recently.

The Plantagenet descent would be an addition (as well as a correction) to
Douglas' "Plantagenet Ancestry" (p. 571?) & a correction to his MCA, p. 367.

I hope this leads to a discussion of the proposed descent and not another
stirring up of the hornets nest.

Hal Bradley


-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:50 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Roos family of Wyville and Gedney,
Lincolnshire


In a message dated 9/17/05 1:09:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Research indicates that the manor of Wyville, Lincolshire
subsequently
passed to Sir Robert de Roos' descendant and heiress, Eleanor Roos,
wife of John Paulet, Esq., which couple were in the process
of selling
the manor in 1467

I can add that on this Eleanor Roos and John Paulet, DNB
"Paulet, Amias"
states that she was dau of Robert Roos of Gedney.
Genealogics.org states that
this Robert's wife was Joan Skelton.

Genealogics.org gives this John Paulet parents of John Paulet
(d 11 Jan 1437)
and Constance Poynings (d 27 Nov 1442). This couple is also
mentioned
(without conflict to genealogics.org) in the DNB "Paulet,
William" [1st Marquis of
Winchester]

A post to this newsgroups recently makes Constance a dau to
Hugh de Poynings
d 26 Dec 1429 and his wife Phillipa Mortimer. And then again
DNB "Paulet,
William" makes this Constance a granddau to Thomas Poynings,
Lord St John d 1429

Will Johnson

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