Turkish Question

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Leo van de Pas

Turkish Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 sep 2005 15:05:02

In E de Zambaur's "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie Pour l'Histoire de l'Islam" is a collection of familytrees. There is one dedicated to the Ottoman Sultans of Turkey.

Like many Muslim familytrees, wives are basically missing. However, there are footnotes.
By Sultan Murad II, he was Sultan from 1421 to 1444 and from 1446 till he died in 1451, is a footnote : Khadidja bint Isfendiar i.Bayazid , mere de Muhammed II. (this is not in the footnote, but he is also known as Mehmed II)

Murad II has been given seven children and the last two seem to be girls, and amongst these children is Muhammed II. In this lineage also appear two Sultans Bayazid, I and II. Bayazid I is the grandfather of Murad II and Bayazid II is a son of Muhammed II.

Does anyone understand what the footnote is indicating? Does bint mean child of? Is Khadidja a daughter of a Isfendiar and is he the son of a Bayazid? Whether it is Sultan Bayazid I is another question.

I have (few) descendants but they go to the 20th century.

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Peter Stewart

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 sep 2005 15:05:03

Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:024f01c5bb88$58084310$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
In E de Zambaur's "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie Pour l'Histoire
de l'Islam" is a collection of familytrees. There is one dedicated to the
Ottoman Sultans of Turkey.

Like many Muslim familytrees, wives are basically missing. However, there
are footnotes.
By Sultan Murad II, he was Sultan from 1421 to 1444 and from 1446 till he
died in 1451, is a footnote : Khadidja bint Isfendiar i.Bayazid , mere de
Muhammed II. (this is not in the footnote, but he is also known as Mehmed
II)

Murad II has been given seven children and the last two seem to be girls,
and amongst these children is Muhammed II. In this lineage also appear two
Sultans Bayazid, I and II. Bayazid I is the grandfather of Murad II and
Bayazid II is a son of Muhammed II.

Does anyone understand what the footnote is indicating? Does bint mean
child of? Is Khadidja a daughter of a Isfendiar and is he the son of a
Bayazid?

That's right, "bint" means daughter and "i." is for "ibn" meaning son.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 sep 2005 15:40:02

Dear Leo,
bint is arabic for "daughter of" as ibn or bin is "son of"
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Chris Bennett

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 17 sep 2005 17:02:59

Leo --

If you are interested in Ottoman genealogy, a more recent, and I think much
better source, giving wives, is A D Alderson, The Structure of the Ottoman
Dynasty (Oxford, 1956)

According to Alderson the mother of Mehmed II is named in an inscription at
Bursa as Huma, of unknown ancestry. He knows of 13 children for Murad II,
including 7 daughters, only one of whom (Fatma) is named.

He doesn't know a "Khadidja bint Isfendiar" as one of Murad's wives, but he
does know a "Hadice (Khadidja) bint Ibrahim Candaroglu" -- but this must be
a different woman because he says that Zambaur gives her father as
Mubarizeddin.

Chris

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:024f01c5bb88$58084310$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
In E de Zambaur's "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie Pour l'Histoire
de l'Islam" is a collection of familytrees. There is one dedicated to the
Ottoman Sultans of Turkey.

Like many Muslim familytrees, wives are basically missing. However, there
are footnotes.
By Sultan Murad II, he was Sultan from 1421 to 1444 and from 1446 till he
died in 1451, is a footnote : Khadidja bint Isfendiar i.Bayazid , mere de
Muhammed II. (this is not in the footnote, but he is also known as Mehmed
II)

Murad II has been given seven children and the last two seem to be girls,
and amongst these children is Muhammed II. In this lineage also appear two
Sultans Bayazid, I and II. Bayazid I is the grandfather of Murad II and
Bayazid II is a son of Muhammed II.

Does anyone understand what the footnote is indicating? Does bint mean
child of? Is Khadidja a daughter of a Isfendiar and is he the son of a
Bayazid? Whether it is Sultan Bayazid I is another question.

I have (few) descendants but they go to the 20th century.

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 17 sep 2005 19:01:13

Dear Chris ~

Thanks for mentioning the book by Alderson. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Bennett wrote:
Leo --

If you are interested in Ottoman genealogy, a more recent, and I think much
better source, giving wives, is A D Alderson, The Structure of the Ottoman
Dynasty (Oxford, 1956)

According to Alderson the mother of Mehmed II is named in an inscription at
Bursa as Huma, of unknown ancestry. He knows of 13 children for Murad II,
including 7 daughters, only one of whom (Fatma) is named.

He doesn't know a "Khadidja bint Isfendiar" as one of Murad's wives, but he
does know a "Hadice (Khadidja) bint Ibrahim Candaroglu" -- but this must be
a different woman because he says that Zambaur gives her father as
Mubarizeddin.

Chris

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:024f01c5bb88$58084310$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
In E de Zambaur's "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie Pour l'Histoire
de l'Islam" is a collection of familytrees. There is one dedicated to the
Ottoman Sultans of Turkey.

Like many Muslim familytrees, wives are basically missing. However, there
are footnotes.
By Sultan Murad II, he was Sultan from 1421 to 1444 and from 1446 till he
died in 1451, is a footnote : Khadidja bint Isfendiar i.Bayazid , mere de
Muhammed II. (this is not in the footnote, but he is also known as Mehmed
II)

Murad II has been given seven children and the last two seem to be girls,
and amongst these children is Muhammed II. In this lineage also appear two
Sultans Bayazid, I and II. Bayazid I is the grandfather of Murad II and
Bayazid II is a son of Muhammed II.

Does anyone understand what the footnote is indicating? Does bint mean
child of? Is Khadidja a daughter of a Isfendiar and is he the son of a
Bayazid? Whether it is Sultan Bayazid I is another question.

I have (few) descendants but they go to the 20th century.

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Chris Bennett

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 17 sep 2005 19:46:46

Further to this, there is more information on Christopher Buyer's Royal Ark
site at:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Turkey/turkey3.htm

He identifies Huma as "daughter of 'Abdu'llah and a relative of George
Balsha, Prince of Zeta (Montenegro)" He does not further identify
"Abd'ullah". He says Murad II had 6 sons and 2 daughters, but goes on to
name 9 sons and 5 daughters.

I give you this for what it may be worth. Although I have no reason to
doubt it, I also can't tell you where he gets it from, or how reliable it
is. The trouble with Buyer's site is that, while he gives an overall set of
sources for his genealogies, which certainly look very impressive, he never
annotates specific statements. In my experience, which I am told is not
unique, he gets rather shirty if asked specific questions about specific
issues.

Chris



"Chris Bennett" <cjbennett@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:...
Leo --

If you are interested in Ottoman genealogy, a more recent, and I think
much better source, giving wives, is A D Alderson, The Structure of the
Ottoman Dynasty (Oxford, 1956)

According to Alderson the mother of Mehmed II is named in an inscription
at Bursa as Huma, of unknown ancestry. He knows of 13 children for Murad
II, including 7 daughters, only one of whom (Fatma) is named.

He doesn't know a "Khadidja bint Isfendiar" as one of Murad's wives, but
he does know a "Hadice (Khadidja) bint Ibrahim Candaroglu" -- but this
must be a different woman because he says that Zambaur gives her father as
Mubarizeddin.

Chris

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:024f01c5bb88$58084310$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
In E de Zambaur's "Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie Pour l'Histoire
de l'Islam" is a collection of familytrees. There is one dedicated to the
Ottoman Sultans of Turkey.

Like many Muslim familytrees, wives are basically missing. However, there
are footnotes.
By Sultan Murad II, he was Sultan from 1421 to 1444 and from 1446 till he
died in 1451, is a footnote : Khadidja bint Isfendiar i.Bayazid , mere de
Muhammed II. (this is not in the footnote, but he is also known as Mehmed
II)

Murad II has been given seven children and the last two seem to be girls,
and amongst these children is Muhammed II. In this lineage also appear
two Sultans Bayazid, I and II. Bayazid I is the grandfather of Murad II
and Bayazid II is a son of Muhammed II.

Does anyone understand what the footnote is indicating? Does bint mean
child of? Is Khadidja a daughter of a Isfendiar and is he the son of a
Bayazid? Whether it is Sultan Bayazid I is another question.

I have (few) descendants but they go to the 20th century.

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



D. Spencer Hines

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 17 sep 2005 21:20:02

Hell, just ask Uriah.


DSH

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:024f01c5bb88$58084310$0300a8c0@Toshiba...

<baldersnip>

Gjest

Re: Turkish Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 sep 2005 03:40:59

In Franz Babinger's "Mehmed der Eroberer und seine Zeit" (1953), he
says Mehmed's mother was a woman of unknown, possibly Christian or
Jewish origin. She was Huma bint Abdullah, Huma daughter of Abdullah,
Abdullah being a name typically given to Muslim converts.

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