Plantagenet Ancestry page 281

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charlotte Smith

Plantagenet Ancestry page 281

Legg inn av charlotte Smith » 15 sep 2005 07:19:01

Plantagenet Ancestry question

Page 281 of Plantagenet Ancestry has Thomas Echyngham marrying Agnes Shoyswell, daughter of John de Shoyuswell of Shoyswell, Sussex. As Thomas was born in 1400 he would have had to been about 15 when he married her and it says, 2nd Margaret Knyvet about between 1415-1424..The time line seems odd.
The only reference for this is from Spencer Hall's 1850 Echyngham of Echyngham and it has no sources for this and everyone copied it.

An article entitled "Ecyhingham Church" by William Slater, Esq read at the Bodian Meeting, July 10, 1856 says this.on page 354-- that he doubts the order of the marriages Also on page 356 it talks about the windows in the church- In the first south window at the very top, az, fretty of G arg sir William Echingham who rebuilt the church. In the first north window at the top, or, on a bend, sa 3 horseshoes, arg, Shoyeswell, wife of Sir William Echingham Also on page 352 the discussion is of the brass memorials on the tomb of William Echingham rebuilder of the church.isEchyngham impaling Shoyeswell. This long before Thomas Echyngham was born. The article quotes notes from 1776 by Haley who wrote about this church and copied down the information.

This article written only 6 years after Spencer Hall's Echygnahm book probably has it right.
Barry's Sussex Genealogy also has Wm married to Marie Shoyswell, not Thomas

This long standing question needs to be resolved as it has invaded the Echyngham family line as gospel.



Charlotsmith@prodigy.net

Leo van de Pas

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry page 281

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 15 sep 2005 08:07:02

Dear Charlotte,

You have created several questions I think.

Is it Agnes Shoyswell or Mary Shoyswell?

and did Miss either Shoyswell marry William or Thomas de Echingham?

And was Thomas Echingham _really_ married twice?

When you mention Plantagenet Ancestry by looking at the page number I know
you mean the Richardson version. The details as displayed, I think, are
possible. They imply that Thomas Echingham, who was 13 in 1413, married
first Agnes Shoyswell. His second wife was Margaret Knyvett whose first
husband died in 1415. And because of that death the marriage took place
after the death in 1415 and by (I presume) 1424 because their son was born
about 1425.

You did not mention the daughter shown by Richardson, Anne. Here, in my
opinion, Richardson avoided a possible fact and may have covered up an
uncertainty.

On page 723 we find John Audley or Tuchet, he married Anne Echingham, widow
of John Rogers, and daughter of Thomas Echingham (her mother not mentioned).
For her ancestry you are told to go to the Echingham entry on page281/282.
Here Anne is specifically recorded as daughter of Margaret Knyvett and shown
as the second child.

But how certain can we be? CP Volume 1, pages 341/342. Here we find that
John Audley married before 1456 Anne (widow of John Rogers who died August
1450) and daughter of Sir Thomas Echingham PROBABLY by his 2nd wife Margaret
Knyvett.

This tells me that Miss either Shoyswell should be the first wife, but
theoretically could have been the mother of Anne. Somehow I doubt this as
there may have been about 5 years between Anne's marriages and would that
have happened had she been born, say, before 1420? My guess is that Anne is
by the 2nd wife also because it is a GUESS by CP.
Why did Richardson record this as a certainty?

Did Richardson walk in where other angels fear to tread? David Faris, in the
first edition of his Plantagenet Ancestry page 270 also maintains Anne is
probably by the _2nd_ wife Margaret Knyvett.

Faris also repeated CP I 342 having him married to (1) Agnes Shoyswell and
(2) Margaret Knyvett. Also between 1415 and 1424. Does Richardson show Anne
as a second child (was she?) Faris avoids making that assessment.

Faris gives some sources, CP I have quoted. He also gives Paget (1977) page
445.
A rather cryptic description of The Ancestors and Relatives of HRH Prince
Charles, the Prince of Wales. But here we find another discrepancy.
Richardson tells Thomas was born about 1425 (aged 20 in 1445) but Faris is a
bit more careful on page 96 of his book he says born about 1425 (aged twenty
AND MORE IN 1445). Gerald Paget has him born in 1424 and as son of Sir
Thomas by Margaret Knyvett but no indication whether Margaret is a second
wife.

Faris also as source, to which I have no access Arch. Jour. 7:268 (1850)
Echyngham (1850), pp 13-14.

If I understand Charlotte's message correctly she seems to wonder whether
Sir Thomas Echingham was married to a Shoyswell at all. This certainly
deserves looking in to.
Maybe the source quoted by David Faris can give the answer? Is that a better
source?
But as he as a Shoyswell marriage as well, perhaps we need to look
elsewhere?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "charlotte Smith" <charlotsmith@prodigy.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: Plantagenet Ancestry page 281


Plantagenet Ancestry question

Page 281 of Plantagenet Ancestry has Thomas Echyngham marrying Agnes
Shoyswell, daughter of John de Shoyuswell of Shoyswell, Sussex. As Thomas
was born in 1400 he would have had to been about 15 when he married her
and it says, 2nd Margaret Knyvet about between 1415-1424..The time line
seems odd.
The only reference for this is from Spencer Hall's 1850 Echyngham of
Echyngham and it has no sources for this and everyone copied it.

An article entitled "Ecyhingham Church" by William Slater, Esq read at
the Bodian Meeting, July 10, 1856 says this.on page 354-- that he doubts
the order of the marriages Also on page 356 it talks about the windows
in the church- In the first south window at the very top, az, fretty of G
arg sir William Echingham who rebuilt the church. In the first north
window at the top, or, on a bend, sa 3 horseshoes, arg, Shoyeswell, wife
of Sir William Echingham Also on page 352 the discussion is of the brass
memorials on the tomb of William Echingham rebuilder of the
church.isEchyngham impaling Shoyeswell. This long before Thomas Echyngham
was born. The article quotes notes from 1776 by Haley who wrote about
this church and copied down the information.

This article written only 6 years after Spencer Hall's Echygnahm book
probably has it right.
Barry's Sussex Genealogy also has Wm married to Marie Shoyswell, not
Thomas

This long standing question needs to be resolved as it has invaded the
Echyngham family line as gospel.



Charlotsmith@prodigy.net



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