Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Vicki Perry
Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Hi again,
Further to my post yesterday about the likelihood of my being able to trace
my family tree back before parish registers and in light of the fact that
some of the replies were off list, I thought I would send a summary for
those interested who do not seem to have noble descent.
The common opinion is that you are much more likely to be able to trace your
ancestors in the medieval period if you find royal/noble/landed ancestors.
Obviously if you manage to locate royal or noble ancestors there are a lot
of sources and pedigrees available, many of which are discussed on here.
The main sources alter in the medieval period and are mainly in the form of
land transactions. So you are much more likely to locate an ancestor if they
held land. However, this does not need to be a vast amount of land and small
landowners and lords of small manors may be tracable.
To trace an unlanded family, the best bet would appear to be manorial
records, if they held and by copyhold tenure. However, not many manorial
collections survive this early, although those documents that do should be
registered on the Manorial Documents Register.
One person who responded to my e-mail said that they thought the most likely
way to find a landed ancestor or one who was a member of the gentry would be
to find a descendant of the minor gentry who married a commoner. I know that
people didn’t generally marry that much outside of their social class so it
is unlikely that anyone would find a Lord marrying and pauper, but it is
feasible that the bottom ends of a higher class would marry someone of the
upper ends of the lower classes.
As for myself, I’m going to carry on researching all of my lines back as far
as I can. When I have a few going back to around 1600 I shall evaluate the
sources and decide which one is likely to yield results if try to go back
further. Someone suggested thatit is a good idea to focus on a family with
an unusual name. Therefore a search of medieval sources may lead to a family
member, even of you’re not sure how they fit into the tree.
Many thanks again for all the responses, I see I probably have another 20
years work ahead of me before I find my 1st medieval ancestor!!
Vicki
Further to my post yesterday about the likelihood of my being able to trace
my family tree back before parish registers and in light of the fact that
some of the replies were off list, I thought I would send a summary for
those interested who do not seem to have noble descent.
The common opinion is that you are much more likely to be able to trace your
ancestors in the medieval period if you find royal/noble/landed ancestors.
Obviously if you manage to locate royal or noble ancestors there are a lot
of sources and pedigrees available, many of which are discussed on here.
The main sources alter in the medieval period and are mainly in the form of
land transactions. So you are much more likely to locate an ancestor if they
held land. However, this does not need to be a vast amount of land and small
landowners and lords of small manors may be tracable.
To trace an unlanded family, the best bet would appear to be manorial
records, if they held and by copyhold tenure. However, not many manorial
collections survive this early, although those documents that do should be
registered on the Manorial Documents Register.
One person who responded to my e-mail said that they thought the most likely
way to find a landed ancestor or one who was a member of the gentry would be
to find a descendant of the minor gentry who married a commoner. I know that
people didn’t generally marry that much outside of their social class so it
is unlikely that anyone would find a Lord marrying and pauper, but it is
feasible that the bottom ends of a higher class would marry someone of the
upper ends of the lower classes.
As for myself, I’m going to carry on researching all of my lines back as far
as I can. When I have a few going back to around 1600 I shall evaluate the
sources and decide which one is likely to yield results if try to go back
further. Someone suggested thatit is a good idea to focus on a family with
an unusual name. Therefore a search of medieval sources may lead to a family
member, even of you’re not sure how they fit into the tree.
Many thanks again for all the responses, I see I probably have another 20
years work ahead of me before I find my 1st medieval ancestor!!
Vicki
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Paul Mackenzie
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Vicki Perry wrote:
Hi Vicki
I agree with this statement. My ancestors went something like this:
commoner [Australia]
orphan [of minor gentry] married commoner [Australia]
minor gentry married minor gentry [first immigrants to Australia]
minor gentry [england].
....
Once you get to the minor gentry you follow the money/land trail.
Paul
Hi again,
One person who responded to my e-mail said that they thought the most
likely way to find a landed ancestor or one who was a member of the
gentry would be to find a descendant of the minor gentry who married a
commoner. I know that people didn’t generally marry that much outside of
their social class so it is unlikely that anyone would find a Lord
marrying and pauper, but it is feasible that the bottom ends of a higher
class would marry someone of the upper ends of the lower classes.
Hi Vicki
I agree with this statement. My ancestors went something like this:
commoner [Australia]
orphan [of minor gentry] married commoner [Australia]
minor gentry married minor gentry [first immigrants to Australia]
minor gentry [england].
....
Once you get to the minor gentry you follow the money/land trail.
Paul
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Le Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:31:56 +0000 (UTC), vickifperry@hotmail.com
("Vicki Perry") écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
My line is somewhat special.
In the 1950s, a Beauregard made a travel to France where he found the
origin of our families. He ordered photographies of all records he
could find but look only for a direct line, i.e. A son of B son of C.
He died in the 1960s, giving his files to his brother who died in the
1980s. Then, the files were given to Quebec national library and
later to Quebec national archives. In 1991, I explored the set of
18 boxes and indexed every Beauregard and Jarret in it.
So, a first searcher got the original raw data and saw nothing. I
know anthoer did the same. Finaly, because I sorted all data
available, I found the line for commoners, renting lands (and not
owning them), from 1471 to the 1600s (where the other searcher
had found this step). Unfortunately, I have no wives (except a
first name) so I can't go further...
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard - Les Français d'Amérique
/\/ http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1711
/ | http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
oo oo Mon association de généalogie: http://www.sgcf.com
("Vicki Perry") écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
The common opinion is that you are much more likely to be able to trace your
ancestors in the medieval period if you find royal/noble/landed ancestors.
Obviously if you manage to locate royal or noble ancestors there are a lot
of sources and pedigrees available, many of which are discussed on here.
My line is somewhat special.
In the 1950s, a Beauregard made a travel to France where he found the
origin of our families. He ordered photographies of all records he
could find but look only for a direct line, i.e. A son of B son of C.
He died in the 1960s, giving his files to his brother who died in the
1980s. Then, the files were given to Quebec national library and
later to Quebec national archives. In 1991, I explored the set of
18 boxes and indexed every Beauregard and Jarret in it.
So, a first searcher got the original raw data and saw nothing. I
know anthoer did the same. Finaly, because I sorted all data
available, I found the line for commoners, renting lands (and not
owning them), from 1471 to the 1600s (where the other searcher
had found this step). Unfortunately, I have no wives (except a
first name) so I can't go further...
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard - Les Français d'Amérique
/\/ http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1711
/ | http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
oo oo Mon association de généalogie: http://www.sgcf.com
-
Gjest
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
In a message dated 15/09/05 00:08:22 GMT Daylight Time,
paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au writes:
I agree totally. It can happen in both directions. My 3 x great grandmother
came from a gentry family. Her family fell on hard times and lost their
estates and were living in what they called 'genteel povity'. Grandmother married
a local tailor (well, I suppose he was 'trade' which made him a bit more
acceptable). She had issue from him (my line) but he died young. She then went
on to have 4 illigitimate children by father/fathers unknown one of whom became
a coalman.
Rose
paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au writes:
One person who responded to my e-mail said that they thought the most
likely way to find a landed ancestor or one who was a member of the
gentry would be to find a descendant of the minor gentry who married a
commoner. I know that people didn’t generally marry that much outside of
their social class so it is unlikely that anyone would find a Lord
marrying and pauper, but it is feasible that the bottom ends of a higher
class would marry someone of the upper ends of the lower classes.
I agree totally. It can happen in both directions. My 3 x great grandmother
came from a gentry family. Her family fell on hard times and lost their
estates and were living in what they called 'genteel povity'. Grandmother married
a local tailor (well, I suppose he was 'trade' which made him a bit more
acceptable). She had issue from him (my line) but he died young. She then went
on to have 4 illigitimate children by father/fathers unknown one of whom became
a coalman.
Rose
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Chris Phillips
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Chris Dickinson wrote:
....
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
....
Vicki Perry wrote:
However, not many manorial collections survive this early, although those
documents that do should be registered on the Manorial Documents
Register.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm
especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office
and
aren't catalogued.
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Chris Dickinson wrote:
....
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
....
Vicki Perry wrote:
However, not many manorial collections survive this early, although those
documents that do should be registered on the Manorial Documents
Register.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm
especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office
and
aren't catalogued.
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Chris Dickinson wrote:
....
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
....
Vicki Perry wrote:
However, not many manorial collections survive this early, although those
documents that do should be registered on the Manorial Documents
Register.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm
especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office
and
aren't catalogued.
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
I'm sorry for the multiple posts! I'm not quite sure what went wrong there.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Dickinson
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Vivki Perry wrote:
Copyhold tenure is a rather post-period term. It might be better to say
'customary tenure' or 'manorial tenure'.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office and
aren't catalogued.
Gentry WERE commoners.
Social mobility has always been very fluid in England. Class edges are not
defined - and class has always depended on money and power. Lots of people
made good and married upwards - or made enough money that their children
were born upwards. Or the reverse.
Look at the practicalities. A fourteenth centry Lord of the Manor had five
daughters - he can maybe finance the marriage of one or two of them to other
local lords. One daughter reserved as spinster to look after him in old age.
That leaves another two who probably never step foot out of the manor - what
does he do with them? Marry them off to the local yeomanry, that's what -
who are flattered and more than likely to be helpful in future.
Chris
To trace an unlanded family, the best bet would appear to be manorial
records, if they held and by copyhold tenure.
Copyhold tenure is a rather post-period term. It might be better to say
'customary tenure' or 'manorial tenure'.
However, not many manorial collections survive this early, although those
documents that do should be registered on the Manorial Documents Register.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office and
aren't catalogued.
One person who responded to my e-mail said that they thought the most
likely way to find a landed ancestor or one who was a member of the gentry
would be to find a descendant of the minor gentry who married a commoner.
Gentry WERE commoners.
I know that people didn't generally marry that much outside of their social
class
Social mobility has always been very fluid in England. Class edges are not
defined - and class has always depended on money and power. Lots of people
made good and married upwards - or made enough money that their children
were born upwards. Or the reverse.
Look at the practicalities. A fourteenth centry Lord of the Manor had five
daughters - he can maybe finance the marriage of one or two of them to other
local lords. One daughter reserved as spinster to look after him in old age.
That leaves another two who probably never step foot out of the manor - what
does he do with them? Marry them off to the local yeomanry, that's what -
who are flattered and more than likely to be helpful in future.
Chris
-
Vicki Perry
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
I have just finished cataloguing a large collection that contained manorial
records (some 13th and 14th centuries). Before it was catalogued we had
contacted the MDR and told them our initial findings on what we had,
although obviously now it has been catalogued they have fuller details.
records (some 13th and 14th centuries). Before it was catalogued we had
contacted the MDR and told them our initial findings on what we had,
although obviously now it has been catalogued they have fuller details.
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:50:08 +0100
Chris Dickinson wrote:
...
Vicki Perry wrote:
However, not many manorial collections survive this early, although
those
documents that do should be registered on the Manorial Documents
Register.
This register doesn't cover the whole of the country yet. And title
deeds
aren't included.
Furthermore, manorial records may survive in private papers. For
instance,
the only two surviving manorial court accounts for the manor I'm
especially
interested in are held in some private papers in the local record office
and
aren't catalogued.
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the
whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves) and does include material in private hands. But of
course if material isn't catalogued it probably won't be listed on the
register.
http://www.mdr.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ... ground.htm
Only some counties are available via the Internet though - currently
Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, Norfolk, Surrey, Middlesex and Yorkshire,
together with the whole of Wales.
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Dickinson
Re: Tracing family trees before 16th century- SUMMARY
Chris Phillips wrote:
<snip>
Yes indeed. Careless of me!
Chris
<snip>
As far as I understand, the Manorial Documents Register does cover the
whole
of England and Wales (though as you say it doesn't include title deeds of
the manors themselves)
snip
Only some counties are available via the Internet though
snip
Yes indeed. Careless of me!
Chris