Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
bonnie
Coggeshall - Hawkwood
"Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote:
<< Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great
Sampford, Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. .... >>
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
<< Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great
Sampford, Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. .... >>
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Dear Bonnie,
The problem is that Sir John Hawkwood appears to have been married twice.
What I have is
Sir John Hawkwood
born about 1325 Hedingham, Sible, England
died 17 March 1394 Florence, Italy
married (1) ....name not known to me
--------parents of Antiochia Mary, married Sir William Coggeshall
married (2) May 1377 in Milan, Donnina Visconti, illegitimate daughter of
Barnabo Visconti, Lord of Milan, by Porina
-------parents of (at least) Anna , Caterina (married Konrad Prospergh),
Zannetta (married NN Brezaglia, Count of Porcia)
This means that the Coggeshall descendants miss out on the Visconti
ancestry. Can anyone add to this?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "bonnie" <bonniegaia@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
The problem is that Sir John Hawkwood appears to have been married twice.
What I have is
Sir John Hawkwood
born about 1325 Hedingham, Sible, England
died 17 March 1394 Florence, Italy
married (1) ....name not known to me
--------parents of Antiochia Mary, married Sir William Coggeshall
married (2) May 1377 in Milan, Donnina Visconti, illegitimate daughter of
Barnabo Visconti, Lord of Milan, by Porina
-------parents of (at least) Anna , Caterina (married Konrad Prospergh),
Zannetta (married NN Brezaglia, Count of Porcia)
This means that the Coggeshall descendants miss out on the Visconti
ancestry. Can anyone add to this?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "bonnie" <bonniegaia@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
"Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote:
Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great Sampford,
Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. ....
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
A quick search of the archives will give some further details. For
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
(3) Margarett = wiffe to ... Bateman after Sir John Green of Essex, Kt.
(4) ... wife of John St. George
I believe the last named daughter was Matilda, wife of John St. George
of Hatley St. George, Camb."
I am aware of descents from both the Tyrell and St George lines, both
of whom I feature in Leo's database.
MAR
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
(3) Margarett = wiffe to ... Bateman after Sir John Green of Essex, Kt.
(4) ... wife of John St. George
I believe the last named daughter was Matilda, wife of John St. George
of Hatley St. George, Camb."
I am aware of descents from both the Tyrell and St George lines, both
of whom I feature in Leo's database.
MAR
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
In message of 14 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
And Burke's Extinct Baronets of 1841, p. 536 says she was Antiocha,
daughter of the famous Sir John Hawkwood of Essex.
On the other hand Burke in the same article says she was Alice
Coggeshall. Though DNB 1st Edn she she was Eleanor, the Essex 1612
visitation did not know her forename nor did the Bucks 1634 visitation.
Finally in my tour of sundry sources, the 1561 Suffolk visitation also
calls her Alice.
Has anyone got some more concrete information?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
A quick search of the archives will give some further details. For
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
And Burke's Extinct Baronets of 1841, p. 536 says she was Antiocha,
daughter of the famous Sir John Hawkwood of Essex.
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
On the other hand Burke in the same article says she was Alice
Coggeshall. Though DNB 1st Edn she she was Eleanor, the Essex 1612
visitation did not know her forename nor did the Bucks 1634 visitation.
Finally in my tour of sundry sources, the 1561 Suffolk visitation also
calls her Alice.
Has anyone got some more concrete information?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
There also seem to be descents from Blanche Doreward- however, I only
have that from the 'Wallop Family' books and have never checked
further. If correct, then Camilla Cornwall would be a descendant (as
all her in-laws stem from the St George line, she might as well get a
mention!).
A quick search of the archives will give some further details. For
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
(3) Margarett = wiffe to ... Bateman after Sir John Green of Essex, Kt.
(4) ... wife of John St. George
I believe the last named daughter was Matilda, wife of John St. George
of Hatley St. George, Camb."
I am aware of descents from both the Tyrell and St George lines, both
of whom I feature in Leo's database.
MAR
There also seem to be descents from Blanche Doreward- however, I only
have that from the 'Wallop Family' books and have never checked
further. If correct, then Camilla Cornwall would be a descendant (as
all her in-laws stem from the St George line, she might as well get a
mention!).
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
There has recently been published a biography of John Hawkwood, but I don't
think it gives any details of his first wife. I did start reading it, but
did not get very far.
"Hawkwood Diabolical Englishman" by Frances Stonor Saunders published by
Faber and Faber, London 2004.
Adrian
In a message dated 14/09/2005 05:10:29 GMT Standard Time,
bonniegaia@comcast.net writes:
Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote:
<< Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great
Sampford, Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. .... >>
Bonnie replied
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
think it gives any details of his first wife. I did start reading it, but
did not get very far.
"Hawkwood Diabolical Englishman" by Frances Stonor Saunders published by
Faber and Faber, London 2004.
Adrian
In a message dated 14/09/2005 05:10:29 GMT Standard Time,
bonniegaia@comcast.net writes:
Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote:
<< Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great
Sampford, Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. .... >>
Bonnie replied
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
I have some 15,974 ancestors of Camilla Shand in my system but I do not have
any links to the St.George family. Where do you think they fit in?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
any links to the St.George family. Where do you think they fit in?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
A quick search of the archives will give some further details. For
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
(3) Margarett = wiffe to ... Bateman after Sir John Green of Essex, Kt.
(4) ... wife of John St. George
I believe the last named daughter was Matilda, wife of John St. George
of Hatley St. George, Camb."
I am aware of descents from both the Tyrell and St George lines, both
of whom I feature in Leo's database.
MAR
There also seem to be descents from Blanche Doreward- however, I only
have that from the 'Wallop Family' books and have never checked
further. If correct, then Camilla Cornwall would be a descendant (as
all her in-laws stem from the St George line, she might as well get a
mention!).
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Leo,
I meant that she descends from the Coggeshall/Hawkwood marriage, as the
St Georges also do. The line would begin:
Sir William Coggeshall 1358-1426=(1)Antiocha Hawkwood
Blanche d.1460=John Doreward of Bocking d.1462
William Doreward of Bocking d.1481=Margaret Arsic
Elizabeth Doreward=Thomas Fotheringham of Brockley d.1490-1
Margaret 1475-1513/14=Nicholas Beaupre d.1513
Edmund Beaupre of Outwell d.1568=Catherine Bedingfield her (2)
Dorothy Beaupre d.1602/3=Sir Robert Bell d.1577, Speaker, his (3)
Frances Bell fl.1656=Sir Anthony Dering c.1558-1635/6 his (2)
Sir Edward Dering 1st Bt 1598-1644=(2)Anne Ashburnham c.1605-1628
Sir Edward Dering 2nd Bt 1625-1684=Mary Harvey 1629-1704
Elizabeth Dering d.1681=Sir Robert Southwell, a quo Camilla
I have some 15,974 ancestors of Camilla Shand in my system but I do not have
any links to the St.George family. Where do you think they fit in?
Leo
Dear Leo,
I meant that she descends from the Coggeshall/Hawkwood marriage, as the
St Georges also do. The line would begin:
Sir William Coggeshall 1358-1426=(1)Antiocha Hawkwood
Blanche d.1460=John Doreward of Bocking d.1462
William Doreward of Bocking d.1481=Margaret Arsic
Elizabeth Doreward=Thomas Fotheringham of Brockley d.1490-1
Margaret 1475-1513/14=Nicholas Beaupre d.1513
Edmund Beaupre of Outwell d.1568=Catherine Bedingfield her (2)
Dorothy Beaupre d.1602/3=Sir Robert Bell d.1577, Speaker, his (3)
Frances Bell fl.1656=Sir Anthony Dering c.1558-1635/6 his (2)
Sir Edward Dering 1st Bt 1598-1644=(2)Anne Ashburnham c.1605-1628
Sir Edward Dering 2nd Bt 1625-1684=Mary Harvey 1629-1704
Elizabeth Dering d.1681=Sir Robert Southwell, a quo Camilla
There also seem to be descents from Blanche Doreward- however, I only
have that from the 'Wallop Family' books and have never checked
further. If correct, then Camilla Cornwall would be a descendant (as
all her in-laws stem from the St George line, she might as well get a
mention!).
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
Tim: I believe Roskell agrees with your findings, as does the new DNB
(but check to be sure).
In message of 14 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
A quick search of the archives will give some further details. For
example on 25.11.1998 Henry Sutcliffe posted the following from the
Visitation of Essex:
"Sir William Cogshall Kt. Had 4 wiffes 4 H. 6 = Mary da. & h. to Sir
John Hawkwood Knt. :
And Burke's Extinct Baronets of 1841, p. 536 says she was Antiocha,
daughter of the famous Sir John Hawkwood of Essex.
Four daughters:
(1) Blanche = uxor John Dorward ob. 37 H. 6
(2) Elianor = wiffe to John Tirell of Heron, Treasurer of the Household
to K. H. 6
On the other hand Burke in the same article says she was Alice
Coggeshall. Though DNB 1st Edn she she was Eleanor, the Essex 1612
visitation did not know her forename nor did the Bucks 1634 visitation.
Finally in my tour of sundry sources, the 1561 Suffolk visitation also
calls her Alice.
Has anyone got some more concrete information?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Tim: I believe Roskell agrees with your findings, as does the new DNB
(but check to be sure).
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
If I recall rightly, BEB refers to sons of Sir John Tyrell only; Leo's
site adds a daughter Anne, married to Ralph St Leger, sourced from
Paget's work on the ancestry of the Prince of Wales.
The following from A2A (Norfolk Record Office: Kimberley papers) may
refer to another daughter:
Settlement on marriage of John Wodehouse to Alianora daughter of Sir
John Tyrell relating to manors in Litcham and advowson of Litcham. -
ref. KIM 2F/2 - date: 7 May 11 Henry VI [1433]
When I get a chance I will check Roskell to see if that sheds any light
on the Alice/Eleanor question. Also, if they were heiresses, perhaps
an IPM would be instructive.
MAR
site adds a daughter Anne, married to Ralph St Leger, sourced from
Paget's work on the ancestry of the Prince of Wales.
The following from A2A (Norfolk Record Office: Kimberley papers) may
refer to another daughter:
Settlement on marriage of John Wodehouse to Alianora daughter of Sir
John Tyrell relating to manors in Litcham and advowson of Litcham. -
ref. KIM 2F/2 - date: 7 May 11 Henry VI [1433]
When I get a chance I will check Roskell to see if that sheds any light
on the Alice/Eleanor question. Also, if they were heiresses, perhaps
an IPM would be instructive.
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Roskell and the new DNB at least disagree over Sir John Tyrell's
father- Roskell gives Sir Thomas, DNB notes this but insists he was
Walter. They do both give Eleanor Flambard as the wife however. The DNB
notes that Sir John Tyrell was the wealthiest non-aristocrat in the
country in 1436, with income reckoned at £396.
If I recall rightly, BEB refers to sons of Sir John Tyrell only; Leo's
site adds a daughter Anne, married to Ralph St Leger, sourced from
Paget's work on the ancestry of the Prince of Wales.
The following from A2A (Norfolk Record Office: Kimberley papers) may
refer to another daughter:
Settlement on marriage of John Wodehouse to Alianora daughter of Sir
John Tyrell relating to manors in Litcham and advowson of Litcham. -
ref. KIM 2F/2 - date: 7 May 11 Henry VI [1433]
When I get a chance I will check Roskell to see if that sheds any light
on the Alice/Eleanor question. Also, if they were heiresses, perhaps
an IPM would be instructive.
MAR
Roskell and the new DNB at least disagree over Sir John Tyrell's
father- Roskell gives Sir Thomas, DNB notes this but insists he was
Walter. They do both give Eleanor Flambard as the wife however. The DNB
notes that Sir John Tyrell was the wealthiest non-aristocrat in the
country in 1436, with income reckoned at £396.
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
ie Eleanor Flambard as wife of Sir John Tyrell's father, rather than as
wife of Sir John?
wife of Sir John?
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Yes, although DNB doesn't explicitly state that she was Sir John's
mother, hence my vagueness. She is given as d.1422, daughter and
heiress of Edmund Flambard of Shepreth, Cambs.; so the subsequent
descent of that manor might confirm it one way or the other.
ie Eleanor Flambard as wife of Sir John Tyrell's father, rather than as
wife of Sir John?
Yes, although DNB doesn't explicitly state that she was Sir John's
mother, hence my vagueness. She is given as d.1422, daughter and
heiress of Edmund Flambard of Shepreth, Cambs.; so the subsequent
descent of that manor might confirm it one way or the other.
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Thanks for that detail.
I understood she is usually given as daughter of John Flambard, who I
believed was to be identified with Sir John F of Harrow, Middlesex.
VCH Middlesex, sub Harrow, records his brass of circa 1390; in detaling
the descent of Flambards Manor, it records that it passed on the death
of Elizabeth Flambard in 1393 to her daughter Eleanor wife of Walter
Tyrell. The references quoted are from the Middlesex Record Office,
which I haven't visited for several years and whose catalogue is not, I
think, online.
I understood she is usually given as daughter of John Flambard, who I
believed was to be identified with Sir John F of Harrow, Middlesex.
VCH Middlesex, sub Harrow, records his brass of circa 1390; in detaling
the descent of Flambards Manor, it records that it passed on the death
of Elizabeth Flambard in 1393 to her daughter Eleanor wife of Walter
Tyrell. The references quoted are from the Middlesex Record Office,
which I haven't visited for several years and whose catalogue is not, I
think, online.
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Yes, I had him down as John Flambard previously, too; presumably there
is evidence for the filiation to Edmund though, if one can follow up
the cited sources.
Thanks for that detail.
I understood she is usually given as daughter of John Flambard, who I
believed was to be identified with Sir John F of Harrow, Middlesex.
VCH Middlesex, sub Harrow, records his brass of circa 1390; in detaling
the descent of Flambards Manor, it records that it passed on the death
of Elizabeth Flambard in 1393 to her daughter Eleanor wife of Walter
Tyrell. The references quoted are from the Middlesex Record Office,
which I haven't visited for several years and whose catalogue is not, I
think, online.
Yes, I had him down as John Flambard previously, too; presumably there
is evidence for the filiation to Edmund though, if one can follow up
the cited sources.
-
Sutliff
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
I posted (in the archives) a mention of this book when I purchased it last
March at Harrods. The author discusses Hawkwood's first wife on page 47. She
goes on to further speculate that she may well have been a de Vere:
"There is evidence to support a marriage, though this, his first spouse, has
never been identified, although it is generally agreed that the union
produced a daughter, Antiocha. The name suggests that Hawkwood's wife may
have been a de Vere: it is associated with a miracle that was said to have
occurred during the fighting in Antioch during the First Crusade in 1098.
Night was falling and the Saracens were stealing away in the darkness when a
bright star appeared on Robert de Vere's shield, illuminating the
battlefield and allowing the Christians to overwhelm the enemy."
HS
P. S. John Hawkwood's father Gilbert died in late July 1340 and requested
burial at Saint Peter's Church in Sible Hedingham (about a mile from the
Vere residence in Castle Hedingham). John Hawkwood had an elder brother also
named John. She assumes that Hawkwood's mother (unnamed) predeceased her
husband. Daughter Beatrice is not mentioned in the book.
<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20d.92e62d8.30595720@aol.com...
March at Harrods. The author discusses Hawkwood's first wife on page 47. She
goes on to further speculate that she may well have been a de Vere:
"There is evidence to support a marriage, though this, his first spouse, has
never been identified, although it is generally agreed that the union
produced a daughter, Antiocha. The name suggests that Hawkwood's wife may
have been a de Vere: it is associated with a miracle that was said to have
occurred during the fighting in Antioch during the First Crusade in 1098.
Night was falling and the Saracens were stealing away in the darkness when a
bright star appeared on Robert de Vere's shield, illuminating the
battlefield and allowing the Christians to overwhelm the enemy."
HS
P. S. John Hawkwood's father Gilbert died in late July 1340 and requested
burial at Saint Peter's Church in Sible Hedingham (about a mile from the
Vere residence in Castle Hedingham). John Hawkwood had an elder brother also
named John. She assumes that Hawkwood's mother (unnamed) predeceased her
husband. Daughter Beatrice is not mentioned in the book.
<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20d.92e62d8.30595720@aol.com...
There has recently been published a biography of John Hawkwood, but I
don't
think it gives any details of his first wife. I did start reading it, but
did not get very far.
"Hawkwood Diabolical Englishman" by Frances Stonor Saunders published by
Faber and Faber, London 2004.
Adrian
In a message dated 14/09/2005 05:10:29 GMT Standard Time,
bonniegaia@comcast.net writes:
Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote:
Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426).
His wife was Joan Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great
Sampford, Essex and Exning, Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d.
bef. 1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. ....
Bonnie replied
Are there additional siblings for Alice Coggeshall?
How much is known of her maternal grandmother (wife of John Hawkwood)
[allegedly?] from the family of a duke of Milan?
Thank you,
Bonnie
Oakland, California
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Further to a note I have just posted on a similar thread, I can give
some further details of the daughters of Sir William Coggeshall and
their marriages, according to Roskell's History of Parliament,
1386-1421.
In Vol IV, p 683 sub Tyrell, Roskell states that Sir John Tyrell of
Heron was the son of Walter Tyrell of Avon, Hants [Matthew: you had
reported Roskell had Sir John as a son of Thomas - does that mean this
position has been corrected in my edition?] by Eleanor, d & h of Edmund
Flambard of Shepreth. He is reported to have married ALice (d 1422) d
& coh. of Sir William Coggeshall, and "?widow of Thomas Mandeville d
1400 of Brommfield, Essex": six sons and four daughters.
On p 684 Roskell notes that John Doreward, son of Speaker John
Doreward, married Tyrell's sister-in-law Blanche Coggeshall.
As I noted in my other post:
Going back one generation to the Coggeshalls, the HoP article on Sir
William C. (1386-1421 Vol II p 616-618) states that by his first
marriage he had one son [John], who died during his father's lifetime,
and four daughters, and by his second marriage (to Ricarda Huish/Fichet
nee Inkpen) possibly one further child who also o.v.p. It names his
third wife as Margaret, but stops there (unlike the Essex Visitation).
Roskell adds that Sir William acted as trustee of the estates of John
Doreward (d 1420) during the 1420s; that his daughter Margaret married
firstly to William Bateman, and his daughter Alice (sic) married John
Tyrell of Heron, MP.
MAR
some further details of the daughters of Sir William Coggeshall and
their marriages, according to Roskell's History of Parliament,
1386-1421.
In Vol IV, p 683 sub Tyrell, Roskell states that Sir John Tyrell of
Heron was the son of Walter Tyrell of Avon, Hants [Matthew: you had
reported Roskell had Sir John as a son of Thomas - does that mean this
position has been corrected in my edition?] by Eleanor, d & h of Edmund
Flambard of Shepreth. He is reported to have married ALice (d 1422) d
& coh. of Sir William Coggeshall, and "?widow of Thomas Mandeville d
1400 of Brommfield, Essex": six sons and four daughters.
On p 684 Roskell notes that John Doreward, son of Speaker John
Doreward, married Tyrell's sister-in-law Blanche Coggeshall.
As I noted in my other post:
Going back one generation to the Coggeshalls, the HoP article on Sir
William C. (1386-1421 Vol II p 616-618) states that by his first
marriage he had one son [John], who died during his father's lifetime,
and four daughters, and by his second marriage (to Ricarda Huish/Fichet
nee Inkpen) possibly one further child who also o.v.p. It names his
third wife as Margaret, but stops there (unlike the Essex Visitation).
Roskell adds that Sir William acted as trustee of the estates of John
Doreward (d 1420) during the 1420s; that his daughter Margaret married
firstly to William Bateman, and his daughter Alice (sic) married John
Tyrell of Heron, MP.
MAR
-
Louise Staley
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
From my database I have copied an old post to SGM which addresses this
issue and may help.
cheers
Louise
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 From: John Stuart Subject: 1146-1304 Gap in
TIREL/TYRELLs of Essex (Pt 2 of 2)
The will of John's brother, Edward, proves that John is son of a Walter
Tyrell and Eleanor Flambard, not the son of Thomas 'the younger.' OFB
further notes that ". . . there is good reason to believe that Sir
Thomas was succeeded in his estates by a Walter." There is some
confusion, however, as to which one, since there are two Walter's at
this time period. OFB refers to one as "Walter of Tweed" (a reference to
records regarding the Tweed ferry), who died by 1395, to distinguish him
from a different Walter of Essex recorded as late as 1406. According to
OFB, there are three plausible relationships between Thomas 'the
younger', Walter of Tweed, Walter of Essex and John which are all
consistent with the documentary evidence. OFB prefers the one in which
Walter of Tweed is son of Thomas 'the younger' and father of the Walter
who died in 1406, who in turn is father of Sir John. However, OFB
conceeds that alternate interpretations placing Walter of Tweed off the
direct line of descent are equally supportable.]
Sources:
Joseph Henry Tyrrell "A Genealogical History of the Tyrrells, Sometime
of the French Vexin, Poix in Picardy, Guernanville in Normandy,
Laingaham in Essex, Kingsworthy and Avon Tyrrell in Hampshire;
Castleknock in Co. Dublin, Fertullagh in Co. Westmeath; and now of
Grange Castle, Co, Kildare; Clonard, Co. Meath; and elsewhere." It was
originally privately published in only 100 copies -- probably in 1904,
may have been reprinted by Phillimore & Co. Ltd, Shopwyke Hall,
Chichester, Sussex sometime shortly before 1982.
"The Tyrells of England" by Dr. O. F. Brown, 1982 Phillimore & Co.
Shopwyke Hall, Chichester, Sussex (this is regarded as the definitive
book on the Tyrrells
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
issue and may help.
cheers
Louise
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 From: John Stuart Subject: 1146-1304 Gap in
TIREL/TYRELLs of Essex (Pt 2 of 2)
The will of John's brother, Edward, proves that John is son of a Walter
Tyrell and Eleanor Flambard, not the son of Thomas 'the younger.' OFB
further notes that ". . . there is good reason to believe that Sir
Thomas was succeeded in his estates by a Walter." There is some
confusion, however, as to which one, since there are two Walter's at
this time period. OFB refers to one as "Walter of Tweed" (a reference to
records regarding the Tweed ferry), who died by 1395, to distinguish him
from a different Walter of Essex recorded as late as 1406. According to
OFB, there are three plausible relationships between Thomas 'the
younger', Walter of Tweed, Walter of Essex and John which are all
consistent with the documentary evidence. OFB prefers the one in which
Walter of Tweed is son of Thomas 'the younger' and father of the Walter
who died in 1406, who in turn is father of Sir John. However, OFB
conceeds that alternate interpretations placing Walter of Tweed off the
direct line of descent are equally supportable.]
Sources:
Joseph Henry Tyrrell "A Genealogical History of the Tyrrells, Sometime
of the French Vexin, Poix in Picardy, Guernanville in Normandy,
Laingaham in Essex, Kingsworthy and Avon Tyrrell in Hampshire;
Castleknock in Co. Dublin, Fertullagh in Co. Westmeath; and now of
Grange Castle, Co, Kildare; Clonard, Co. Meath; and elsewhere." It was
originally privately published in only 100 copies -- probably in 1904,
may have been reprinted by Phillimore & Co. Ltd, Shopwyke Hall,
Chichester, Sussex sometime shortly before 1982.
"The Tyrells of England" by Dr. O. F. Brown, 1982 Phillimore & Co.
Shopwyke Hall, Chichester, Sussex (this is regarded as the definitive
book on the Tyrrells
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Thanks for that detail.
I understood she is usually given as daughter of John Flambard, who I
believed was to be identified with Sir John F of Harrow, Middlesex.
VCH Middlesex, sub Harrow, records his brass of circa 1390; in detaling
the descent of Flambards Manor, it records that it passed on the death
of Elizabeth Flambard in 1393 to her daughter Eleanor wife of Walter
Tyrell. The references quoted are from the Middlesex Record Office,
which I haven't visited for several years and whose catalogue is not, I
think, online.
Yes, I had him down as John Flambard previously, too; presumably there
is evidence for the filiation to Edmund though, if one can follow up
the cited sources.
-
John Higgins
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
Prince Charles is also a descendant of Elizabeth Doreward and Thomas
Fotheringham - via Sir Edmund Bell, son of Sir Robert Bell and Dorothy
Beaupré above [see Paget's work]. So Charles and Camilla are ancestral
cousins via yet another connection.
Princess Diana was apparently also a Doreward descendant, through another
son of Blanche Coggeshall and John Doreward. Sir Princes William and Harry
are likely descendants of Sir William Coggeshall and Antiochia Hawkwood by
at least three of their four daughters. I wonder if descents have been
traced from the 4th daughter Margaret, said to have m. (1) [William?]
Bateman and (2) Sir John Green.
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I have some 15,974 ancestors of Camilla Shand in my system but I do not
have
any links to the St.George family. Where do you think they fit in?
Leo
Dear Leo,
I meant that she descends from the Coggeshall/Hawkwood marriage, as the
St Georges also do. The line would begin:
Sir William Coggeshall 1358-1426=(1)Antiocha Hawkwood
Blanche d.1460=John Doreward of Bocking d.1462
William Doreward of Bocking d.1481=Margaret Arsic
Elizabeth Doreward=Thomas Fotheringham of Brockley d.1490-1
Margaret 1475-1513/14=Nicholas Beaupre d.1513
Edmund Beaupre of Outwell d.1568=Catherine Bedingfield her (2)
Dorothy Beaupre d.1602/3=Sir Robert Bell d.1577, Speaker, his (3)
Frances Bell fl.1656=Sir Anthony Dering c.1558-1635/6 his (2)
Sir Edward Dering 1st Bt 1598-1644=(2)Anne Ashburnham c.1605-1628
Sir Edward Dering 2nd Bt 1625-1684=Mary Harvey 1629-1704
Elizabeth Dering d.1681=Sir Robert Southwell, a quo Camilla
There also seem to be descents from Blanche Doreward- however, I only
have that from the 'Wallop Family' books and have never checked
further. If correct, then Camilla Cornwall would be a descendant (as
all her in-laws stem from the St George line, she might as well get a
mention!).
Prince Charles is also a descendant of Elizabeth Doreward and Thomas
Fotheringham - via Sir Edmund Bell, son of Sir Robert Bell and Dorothy
Beaupré above [see Paget's work]. So Charles and Camilla are ancestral
cousins via yet another connection.
Princess Diana was apparently also a Doreward descendant, through another
son of Blanche Coggeshall and John Doreward. Sir Princes William and Harry
are likely descendants of Sir William Coggeshall and Antiochia Hawkwood by
at least three of their four daughters. I wonder if descents have been
traced from the 4th daughter Margaret, said to have m. (1) [William?]
Bateman and (2) Sir John Green.
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
No, I suspect I just misinterpreted my own notes! What comes of not
photocopying or printing out everything... the new DNB certainly takes
HoP to task over some point, but I don't now know which one. Sorry
about that.
In Vol IV, p 683 sub Tyrell, Roskell states that Sir John Tyrell of
Heron was the son of Walter Tyrell of Avon, Hants [Matthew: you had
reported Roskell had Sir John as a son of Thomas - does that mean this
position has been corrected in my edition?]
No, I suspect I just misinterpreted my own notes! What comes of not
photocopying or printing out everything... the new DNB certainly takes
HoP to task over some point, but I don't now know which one. Sorry
about that.
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
The material regarding the familial background of Sir John Hawkwood is
of great interest - thank you Mr Sutcliff.
Adrian - I shall have to add the book to my library - thanks for the
details.
Michael
of great interest - thank you Mr Sutcliff.
Adrian - I shall have to add the book to my library - thanks for the
details.
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Coggeshall - Hawkwood
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Now that I've been able to check... As Michael found, ODNB and HoP do
agree that Sir John Tyrell (d.1437) was son of a Walter Tyrell. Where
they turn out to differ is that ODNB emphatically states this Walter to
be son of Sir Thomas Tyrell (d.1382)- rather than the latter's brother,
as in HoP. As for Walter's wife Eleanor Flambard, it says her lands
went to Edmund Tyrell (d.1442), brother of Sir John (d.1437); but it
does call Eleanor 'their mother', so that removes the ambiguity about
whether or not she was also mother of John.
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In Vol IV, p 683 sub Tyrell, Roskell states that Sir John Tyrell of
Heron was the son of Walter Tyrell of Avon, Hants [Matthew: you had
reported Roskell had Sir John as a son of Thomas - does that mean this
position has been corrected in my edition?]
No, I suspect I just misinterpreted my own notes! What comes of not
photocopying or printing out everything... the new DNB certainly takes
HoP to task over some point, but I don't now know which one. Sorry
about that.
Now that I've been able to check... As Michael found, ODNB and HoP do
agree that Sir John Tyrell (d.1437) was son of a Walter Tyrell. Where
they turn out to differ is that ODNB emphatically states this Walter to
be son of Sir Thomas Tyrell (d.1382)- rather than the latter's brother,
as in HoP. As for Walter's wife Eleanor Flambard, it says her lands
went to Edmund Tyrell (d.1442), brother of Sir John (d.1437); but it
does call Eleanor 'their mother', so that removes the ambiguity about
whether or not she was also mother of John.