Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

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Steve Barnhoorn

Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 13 sep 2005 17:56:53

Which primary source explicitly states the parentage of Herbert II
Vermandois to Herbert I, a known descendant of Charlemagne?

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 sep 2005 09:35:51

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1126630613.864733.141100@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Which primary source explicitly states the parentage of Herbert II
Vermandois to Herbert I, a known descendant of Charlemagne?

I can't think of one, but this is hardly a dubious link - Heribert I was
murdered in the time of Regino, who recounts this; he was followed as count
of Vermandois, abbot of Saint-Médard at Soissons and in his other powers by
Heribert II, who lived until 943 and married a daughter of King Robert I.

Do you see a problem with this filiation, or are you just looking to fill in
a blank?

Peter Stewart

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 15 sep 2005 14:05:40

Peter: I spent a good part of my evening consulting Regino (MGH SS 1)
as you alluded in your post. Pardon my ignorance of Latin
nomenclature, but I could not make any determination of the filiation
you mentioned. Was this described by Regino [if so, what pages?] or
was this chronicled by another source? Look forward to your response.

John A. Mehring

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av John A. Mehring » 15 sep 2005 16:11:37

Pedigrees of Some of the Emp. Charlemagne's Desc's., Marcellus Donald R.
von Redlich 1941: Page 120..
Charlemagne, King of the Franks & Emp. of the West, b. 4-02-747, d.
1-28-814, He m. (1) 771, Hildegard, Princess of Swabia, d. 4-30-783.
-Pepin, King of Italy, b. 4-773, d. 7-08-810, father of
-Bernard, King of Italy, 9-813, abdicated 12-817, b. Abt. 797, d.
4-17-818. Married Cunigunde, d. Abt. 835.
-Pepin, b. 817/8, d. Aft. 840, father of,
-Herbert I, Count of Vermandois, b. Abt. 840, murdered Abt. 902. He m.
Bertha de Morvois.
- Herbert II, Count of Vermandois & of Troyes, d. Abt. 943. He m.
Liegeard, dau. of Robert I, King of France.
-Albert I, the Pious, Count of Vermandois, b. Abt. 920, d. 987/8. He m.
Princess Gerberga, dau. of Louis IV, d'Outre-mer, King of France, & his
wife Gerberga, widow of Gisilbert, Duke of Lorraine, and dau. of Henry
I, the Fowler, Emp. of Germany.



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Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 15 sep 2005 17:45:17

What does von Redlich give as his sources?

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 sep 2005 22:36:25

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1126789540.584817.90900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter: I spent a good part of my evening consulting Regino (MGH SS 1)
as you alluded in your post. Pardon my ignorance of Latin
nomenclature, but I could not make any determination of the filiation
you mentioned. Was this described by Regino [if so, what pages?] or
was this chronicled by another source? Look forward to your response.

Perhaps you misread my post - in answer to your question "Which primary
source explicitly states the parentage of Herbert II Vermandois to Herbert
I, a known descendant of Charlemagne?" I responded:

I can't think of one, but this is hardly a dubious link - Heribert I was
murdered in the time of Regino, who recounts this; he was followed as count
of Vermandois, abbot of Saint-Médard at Soissons and in his other powers by
Heribert II, who lived until 943 and married a daughter of King Robert I.

In other words, Regino recounted the killing of Heribert I, but no source
known to me gives the filiation of Heribert II.

Under 818 (not when it happened, which was almost a century later) you will
find the statement of Regino that I mentioned, relating to his own time:
"Heribertus Rodulfum comitem, filium Balduini interfecit nostris temporibus,
et non multum post occisus est a Balduino, satellite Balduini, fratris
Rodulfi". As I said, Heribert II occurs in his namesake's place very soon
after this.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 sep 2005 01:22:01

Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

What does von Redlich give as his sources?

I can't answer this, but Karl Werner [in 'Untersuchungen zur
Frühzeit des französischen Fürstentums (9-10 Jahrhundert), V. Zur
Geschichte des Hauses Vermandois', _Die Welt als Geschichte_ 20 (1960)]
did not cite any explicit statement that Heribert II was son of
Heribert I. If he had found one, I can't imagine that he would have
omitted to mention it.

If you want to consult a more recent authority I suggest you try Helmut
Schwager's _Graf Heribert II. von Soissons, Omois, Meaux, Madrie sowie
Vermandois (900/06-943) und die Francia (Nord-Frankreich) in der 1.
Hälfte des 10. Jahrhunderts_, Münchener historische Studien:
Abteilung mittelalterliche Geschichte 6 (Kallmünz, 1994). I don't have
a copy of this to check.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 sep 2005 02:43:02

Dear Peter,
Are you familiar with Rosch "Caroli Magni Progenies"?

The sources list starts telling it is not complete, and I am not sure
whether there is an indicattion as to which information comes from which
source. In the introduction to the sources list in this German language book
is also a mention of Brandenburg's book on the descendants of Charlemagne,
and this book, too, has quite a bibliography. If it can help, can I look up
anything in either book?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois


Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

What does von Redlich give as his sources?

I can't answer this, but Karl Werner [in 'Untersuchungen zur
Frühzeit des französischen Fürstentums (9-10 Jahrhundert), V. Zur
Geschichte des Hauses Vermandois', _Die Welt als Geschichte_ 20 (1960)]
did not cite any explicit statement that Heribert II was son of
Heribert I. If he had found one, I can't imagine that he would have
omitted to mention it.

If you want to consult a more recent authority I suggest you try Helmut
Schwager's _Graf Heribert II. von Soissons, Omois, Meaux, Madrie sowie
Vermandois (900/06-943) und die Francia (Nord-Frankreich) in der 1.
Hälfte des 10. Jahrhunderts_, Münchener historische Studien:
Abteilung mittelalterliche Geschichte 6 (Kallmünz, 1994). I don't have
a copy of this to check.

Peter Stewart



Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 sep 2005 04:18:18

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:00f901c5ba57$623f8be0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
Dear Peter,
Are you familiar with Rosch "Caroli Magni Progenies"?

The sources list starts telling it is not complete, and I am not sure
whether there is an indicattion as to which information comes from which
source. In the introduction to the sources list in this German language
book is also a mention of Brandenburg's book on the descendants of
Charlemagne, and this book, too, has quite a bibliography. If it can help,
can I look up anything in either book?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Thanks, Leo - I checked both Rösch and Brandenburg, but neither of them
offers a primary source for Heribert II's parentage. I've also looked at the
secondary sources cited by Brandenburg, with the same result.

By the way, in common with most modern scholars Rösch gave Heribert II a
sister Beatrix, wife of King Robert I, whereas Brandenburg (I think rightly)
rejected this. As far as I know, Helmut Schwager (cited in my earlier post,
below) is the only contemporary historian who agrees with Brandenburg.
However, the reasons he gave for this, in an appendix to his book, do not
provide a thorough debunking of the conventional version.

Peter Stewart



----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois


Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

What does von Redlich give as his sources?

I can't answer this, but Karl Werner [in 'Untersuchungen zur
Frühzeit des französischen Fürstentums (9-10 Jahrhundert), V. Zur
Geschichte des Hauses Vermandois', _Die Welt als Geschichte_ 20 (1960)]
did not cite any explicit statement that Heribert II was son of
Heribert I. If he had found one, I can't imagine that he would have
omitted to mention it.

If you want to consult a more recent authority I suggest you try Helmut
Schwager's _Graf Heribert II. von Soissons, Omois, Meaux, Madrie sowie
Vermandois (900/06-943) und die Francia (Nord-Frankreich) in der 1.
Hälfte des 10. Jahrhunderts_, Münchener historische Studien:
Abteilung mittelalterliche Geschichte 6 (Kallmünz, 1994). I don't have
a copy of this to check.

Peter Stewart




Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 16 sep 2005 17:06:34

Dear Newsgroup:

Thank you all for your input. Seems like Herbert II's parentage
remains questionable, minus a primary or contemporaneous source. All
the same, I will consult Helmut Schwager's work at a university
library near me, and examine his conclusions, observations, sources
consulted, etc. A chorus of modern-day historians, however, is not a
substitute for the real deal.

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 sep 2005 23:31:20

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1126886794.594896.21140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup:

Thank you all for your input. Seems like Herbert II's parentage
remains questionable, minus a primary or contemporaneous source. All
the same, I will consult Helmut Schwager's work at a university
library near me, and examine his conclusions, observations, sources
consulted, etc. A chorus of modern-day historians, however, is not a
substitute for the real deal.

This is not a "modern day" idea, and the consensus has always been that
Heribert II was the son & immediate heir of Heribert I. At the time in
question, early in the 10th century, it would be highly unusual to find a
succession like this, of a junior namesake to all the honours of a senior,
if they were not father & son where there is nothing to indicate this.

If charters existed, for instance, where the opportunity was missed to
describe this relationship, it might be highyly questionable. Otherwise to
seize on one particular pair, in their time & place, when so many have no
firmer evidence, seems to be caution for its own sake. Circumstances make
for a strong presumption, only short of explicit proof from a contemporary
or nera-contemporary - who could also have possibly been mistaken anyway.
Plenty of similar points depend on Adhemar of Chabannes or Aubry of
Troisfontaines, to name only two important later chroniclers, who made
serious genealogical blunders.

Peter Stewart

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 17 sep 2005 03:01:39

Actually I had Gustav Anjou in mind with regard to "modern-day
historians." Scam artist might be more applicable, given his track
record of creative genealogy.

Thanks for clarifying Herbert II.

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 sep 2005 03:24:20

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1126922099.992950.315740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Actually I had Gustav Anjou in mind with regard to "modern-day
historians." Scam artist might be more applicable, given his track
record of creative genealogy.

Thanks for clarifying Herbert II.

Thank you for raising the matter - I was led from Brandenburg to Georges de
Manteyer, who I hadn't remembered touching on the subject of Heribert II's
relationship to King Robert I and the latter's son Hugo Magnus.

Not much got past Manteyer, and in this case he briskly dismissed the
question about Beatrix "of Vermandois" by affirming that Heribert II was
son-in-law to Robert I, as Folcuin and Flodoard stated, but not also his
brother-in-law as in the later, unreliable chronicle attributed to Clarius
of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif, that has been followed by most historians &
genealogists today after the lead of Karl Werner.

Peter Stewart

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 18 sep 2005 01:57:44

Here's an interesting item I came across at the University of
Rochester today :

Chronicon S. Benigni Divionensis, PL 162, col. 812C: Quin potius
Herbertus comes Vermendensis infando scelere dominum suum regemque
totius Franciae Carolum dolo captum, vinculisque irretitum, Peronnae
direxit tenebroso domicilio recludendum.


<<< I have no idea when this was written, whether it's contemporary or
near-contemporary, but it sounds like the "infando" is Herbert II, and
the "Herbertus" is Herbert I. Would that be correct? >>>

John P. Ravilious

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 18 sep 2005 02:56:46

Dear Steve,

The above actually has nothing to do with Heribert I, and
actually concerns the capture and imprisonment of Charles III "the
Simple", King of France by Heribert II of Vermandois in 923. King
Charles was held captive (first at St. Quentin, then at Peronne) for
the remainder of his "reign", dying a prisoner 7 Oct 929 at Peronne.

Cheers,

John

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 sep 2005 04:57:02

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1127005064.344698.212130@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Here's an interesting item I came across at the University of
Rochester today :

Chronicon S. Benigni Divionensis, PL 162, col. 812C: Quin potius
Herbertus comes Vermendensis infando scelere dominum suum regemque
totius Franciae Carolum dolo captum, vinculisque irretitum, Peronnae
direxit tenebroso domicilio recludendum.


I have no idea when this was written, whether it's contemporary or
near-contemporary, but it sounds like the "infando" is Herbert II, and
the "Herbertus" is Herbert I. Would that be correct?

"Infando" means "shocking", or "unheard of", that is the offense of Heribert
II in taking his lord (King Charles the Simple) prisoner and shutting him up
in Péronne, which is all that is reported here.

The chronicle of Saint-Bénigne at Dijon was compiled by an unknown monk in
the mid-11th century - it ends in 1052. Many sources were used by the
writer, and the events outlined in the quotation above can be found in
several earlier narratives.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 sep 2005 06:08:30

"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1127008606.064170.288760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Steve,

The above actually has nothing to do with Heribert I, and
actually concerns the capture and imprisonment of Charles III "the
Simple", King of France by Heribert II of Vermandois in 923. King
Charles was held captive (first at St. Quentin, then at Peronne) for
the remainder of his "reign", dying a prisoner 7 Oct 929 at Peronne.

7 October 929 is the correct year & almost certainly the right date, but
interestingly the obituary of Saint-Denis gave 17 September instead.

However, we know from a document of Charles himself for Saint-Denis that he
was born on St Lambert's day, 17 September, so perhaps his death was
recorded on the same day because the actual date was not known when news
reached the abbey.

Some chroniclers even got the year wrong, for instance the continuator of
Regino who placed it in 925, the annalist of Lobbes in 926 and his
counterpart at Saint-Maximin abbey, Trier, in 930. This is fairly typical of
the way such information could become confused in transmission amongst
religious houses at this time, by rough copying from one set of records to
another. We are often left to guess the real date.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 sep 2005 09:34:50

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:iD6Xe.51560$FA3.14523@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1127008606.064170.288760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Steve,

The above actually has nothing to do with Heribert I, and
actually concerns the capture and imprisonment of Charles III "the
Simple", King of France by Heribert II of Vermandois in 923. King
Charles was held captive (first at St. Quentin, then at Peronne) for
the remainder of his "reign", dying a prisoner 7 Oct 929 at Peronne.

7 October 929 is the correct year & almost certainly the right date, but
interestingly the obituary of Saint-Denis gave 17 September instead.

However, we know from a document of Charles himself for Saint-Denis that
he was born on St Lambert's day, 17 September, so perhaps his death was
recorded on the same day because the actual date was not known when news
reached the abbey.

On second thoughts, I'm not quite so sure that 7 October is the right date,
or that 17 September was chosen in ignorance of the actual day.

Père Anselme stated, without naming a source, that Charles III died of
affliction ("mourut de chagrin") at Péronne on 7 October 929, and he has
been followed by every historian since his time that I have been able to
check today, including Auguste Eckel in the standard biography.

The latter is cited - alone - by Christian Settipani for the same
information. However, Eckel could be slipshod and appears to have been so on
this matter: for instance, he cited the annals of Saint-Colombe at Sens (MGH
SS vol. IX, p. 105), but there is no entry at all under 929 in that source -
Eckel had it mixed up with 'Historia Francorum Senonensis' (MGH SS vol.
XIII, p. 366) which gave neither year nor date. He did cite a few sources
that give the year 929, but none for the alleged date. He noted without
support that Folcuin had got this wrong.

As it happens, Folcuin (writing just over two decades after the event)
nearly agreed with the obituary of Saint-Denis that I mentioned earlier,
overlooked by Eckel: acccording to Folcuin, Charles died on the day before,
16 September, the eve of his birthday.

This evidence from two independent sources, in the absence of any that I can
as yet identify for 7 October, leaves the question of whether Charles died
then or in mid-September still to be resolved as far as I'm concerned.
Unfortunately this is not recorded in most of the monastic and cathedral
obituaries that might have shed some further light on it.

However, there is more checking to be done, unless someone can point to a
contemporary source for 7 October.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re:Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 sep 2005 09:42:01

"infando scelere means "by an unspeakable crime"- nothing at all to do with
the Count's parentage
MM


> Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 19 sep 2005 02:37:40

Thank you for clearing up the "infando" reference.

Decided to post these finds [some I think are on-line already]

Flodoardi annals a.919-966 (MGH SS 3, 393): Anno 946 quidam motus inter
filios Heriberti comitis agitantur pro hereditatum distributione
suarum. Qui tamen, Hugone principe avunculo ipsorum mediante, pacantur,
divisis sibi, prout eis competens visum est, rebus.

Widukindi res gestae Saxonicae a. c.919-973, ed. Georgio Waitz (MGH SS
3, 435): Inter quos Hiriberhtus gener Hugonis...

Hugonis Mangi Charta pro Abbatia S. Martini Turonensis (RHGF 9,
719-720): ...domni et gentoris nostril Roberti quondam Regis ac
genitricis nostrae domnae Beatricis...

Historia Walciodorensis monasterii (MGH SS 14, 508): [The Year 896 in
left-hand corner]: Sedata itaque seditione istius morte, contritionis
et doloris gemitus suae partis factus est Rodulfus, et ulto sanguine,
qui ab eo effuses fuerat innoxius, hereditates et terrae, quae per
violentiam ab hoc fuerant usurpando invasae, Heriberti heredibus
restituuntur iuste, consilio, probitate, industria, fortitudine
familiarium amicorum.

Chronica Albrici Monachi Trium Fontium (MGH SS 23, 774): Qui sororem
habuit, de qua nati sunt quatuor filii comitis Heriberti de Perona,
Campanie simul et Veromandie comitis.

Ex Stephani Rothomagensis Normannico Dracone (MGH SS 26, 157): De bello
inter Robertum principem Francorum, qui diadema ceperat, et Karolum
regem apud Suessionem, in quo idem Robertus occiditur, et etiam idem
rex rediens apud Peronam castrum, a Herberto comite, cuis sororem
predictus Robertus habebat in uxorem, captus, in carcere obierit;

Most of these are clear except Historia Walciodorensis monasterii. Any
idea what it could mean? Does it refer to Herbert I or II?

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 sep 2005 04:52:25

Comments interspersed:

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1127093860.737779.68110@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Thank you for clearing up the "infando" reference.

Decided to post these finds [some I think are on-line already]

Flodoardi annals a.919-966 (MGH SS 3, 393): Anno 946 quidam motus inter
filios Heriberti comitis agitantur pro hereditatum distributione
suarum. Qui tamen, Hugone principe avunculo ipsorum mediante, pacantur,
divisis sibi, prout eis competens visum est, rebus.

This confirms information that Flodoard repeats several times in his annals,
and also in his history of the diocese of Rheims: King Robert I's son Hugo
Magnus was uncle to the sons of Count Heribert II. After the latter's death
(in 943) Hugo resolved a dispute amongst his nephews over sharing their
inheritance.

Widukindi res gestae Saxonicae a. c.919-973, ed. Georgio Waitz (MGH SS
3, 435): Inter quos Hiriberhtus gener Hugonis...

Again, this confirms that Heribert II was brother-in-law to Hugo Magnus -
"gener" can't possibly mean anything else here, as "son-in-law" is
chronologically out of the question. The note in MGH SS 3 suggesting that
"gener" should be understood as "avunculus" is patently wrong, even allowing
for the misguided notion behind it regarding Hugo's mother Beatrix.

Hugonis Mangi Charta pro Abbatia S. Martini Turonensis (RHGF 9,
719-720): ...domni et gentoris nostril Roberti quondam Regis ac
genitricis nostrae domnae Beatricis...

Again, nothing added - we know from this charter that Hugo's mother was
named Beatrix, but there is no hint about her family origin.

Historia Walciodorensis monasterii (MGH SS 14, 508): [The Year 896 in
left-hand corner]: Sedata itaque seditione istius morte, contritionis
et doloris gemitus suae partis factus est Rodulfus, et ulto sanguine,
qui ab eo effuses fuerat innoxius, hereditates et terrae, quae per
violentiam ab hoc fuerant usurpando invasae, Heriberti heredibus
restituuntur iuste, consilio, probitate, industria, fortitudine
familiarium amicorum.

This is from a mid-12th century history of Waulsort abbey, that is a
conflation of legend with fact and - in some instances, including this
family - outright genealogical fiction. Here it records that lands were
restored to Heribert I, and the editor has glossed the passage with the year
when it was thought that Heribert became count of Vermandois.

Chronica Albrici Monachi Trium Fontium (MGH SS 23, 774): Qui sororem
habuit, de qua nati sunt quatuor filii comitis Heriberti de Perona,
Campanie simul et Veromandie comitis.

Another late source, more reliable than the preceding but far from perfect
nonetheless. Here Alberic has his facts almost straight: a sister of Hugo
Magnus was mother of the five (not just four) sons of Heribert II.

Ex Stephani Rothomagensis Normannico Dracone (MGH SS 26, 157): De bello
inter Robertum principem Francorum, qui diadema ceperat, et Karolum
regem apud Suessionem, in quo idem Robertus occiditur, et etiam idem
rex rediens apud Peronam castrum, a Herberto comite, cuis sororem
predictus Robertus habebat in uxorem, captus, in carcere obierit;

This is a late, derivative source and inaccurate anyway - King Robert I was
killed in battle near Soissons in 923, but Charles the Simple was taken as a
prisoner by Heribert II's treachery later in that year, and not to Peronne
at first. As I have said, there is no contemporary evidence to back up the
statement here that King Robert I ever married a sister of Heribert II, who
was his son-in-law rather than brother-in-law (and not both).

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 sep 2005 05:08:31

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ZBqXe.153$4f3.136@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

<snip>

As I have said, there is no contemporary evidence to back up the statement
here that King Robert I ever married a sister of Heribert II, who was his
son-in-law rather than brother-in-law (and not both).

I should restate this: it is _not impossible_ that King Robert I did at some
stage marry a sister of Heribert II, but if so she was certainly not Beatrix
the mother of his son Hugo.

Warner made a false assumption that Beatrix outlived Robert, but the charter
of Hugo quoted earlier, naming her simply as his mother Beatrix, without
title, is fairly good evidence that she had died before Robert became king
in 922, since she is not called "regina".

There is another charter where Robert, still not yet king, occurs with a
countess named Adela, whom Werner thought to be his daughter acting for her
husband Heribert II of Vermandois. However, this is highly dubious, and as
Constance Bouchard has pointed out the context makes it much more plausible
that Adela was Robert's own wife at the time. She _may_ have been a princess
of Vermandois: the name existed in this family from around that time,
adduced by Werner as evidence for his solution. But if so she was a second
wife and not the mother of Hugo Magnus.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 sep 2005 09:46:19

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ZBqXe.153$4f3.136@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Comments interspersed:

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1127093860.737779.68110@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

Historia Walciodorensis monasterii (MGH SS 14, 508): [The Year 896 in
left-hand corner]: Sedata itaque seditione istius morte, contritionis
et doloris gemitus suae partis factus est Rodulfus, et ulto sanguine,
qui ab eo effuses fuerat innoxius, hereditates et terrae, quae per
violentiam ab hoc fuerant usurpando invasae, Heriberti heredibus
restituuntur iuste, consilio, probitate, industria, fortitudine
familiarium amicorum.

This is from a mid-12th century history of Waulsort abbey, that is a
conflation of legend with fact and - in some instances, including this
family - outright genealogical fiction. Here it records that lands were
restored to Heribert I, and the editor has glossed the passage with the
year when it was thought that Heribert became count of Vermandois.

Actually the editor of this semi-fictitious narrative referred to the prior
real event in glossing the passage, that is to the killing of Raoul who had
usurped Heribert's territories. This is related in the annals of Saint Vaast
under 896, and is the first appearance of Heribert in any known record.

Heribert was granted Vermandois soon after, probably in the next year.

The Waulsort account is thought to be derived, indirectly, from a lost poem
of the mid-10th century, and it doesn't even roughly stick to the facts. The
killer was said to be not Heribert himself, but a bastard nephew of his
named Berner, who later fought an indecisive duel with Raoul's nephew
Gautier.

Peter Stewart

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 19 sep 2005 22:01:53

Herbert I?
Ex Chronico Sithiensi S. Bertini ab Iperio (Recueil des Historiens des
Gaules et de la France 9), 73d: Rodulfus etiam Comes pagi Cameracensis,
frater Balduini Comitis, contra Eudonem Regem in iram commovetur
propter castella S. Quintini et Peronae ab Eudone sibi ablata. Sed dum
contra Eudonem guerrians, patriam illiam depraedari non cessat, an
Heriberto Comite Viromandensi in bello occiditur.

Herbert II?
Ex Chronico Sithiensi S. Bertini ab Iperio (Recueil des Historiens des
Gaules et de la France 9), 77b: Heribertus Viromandiae Comes proditorum
nequissimus dolens de morte Roberti regni usurpatoris nunc proxime in
bello Suessionico peremti, qui sororem ejus a uxorem habebat...

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 sep 2005 23:39:43

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1127163713.068843.140690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Herbert I?
Ex Chronico Sithiensi S. Bertini ab Iperio (Recueil des Historiens des
Gaules et de la France 9), 73d: Rodulfus etiam Comes pagi Cameracensis,
frater Balduini Comitis, contra Eudonem Regem in iram commovetur
propter castella S. Quintini et Peronae ab Eudone sibi ablata. Sed dum
contra Eudonem guerrians, patriam illiam depraedari non cessat, an
Heriberto Comite Viromandensi in bello occiditur.

The chronicle you are quoting from was compiled by Iohannes Iperius (aka
Longus, Jean le Long) who was abbot of Saint-Bertin in the late 14th
century. The above relates to Heribert I and his conflict with Raoul, count
of Cambrai, brother of Balduin II, count of Flanders. The killing of Raoul
by Heribert has been discussed already - this was recounted by Regino under
818 and in the annals of Saint-Vaast under 896 when it occurred (on 27
June). The same circumstances were misrelated in the history of Waulsort
abbey.

Herbert II?
Ex Chronico Sithiensi S. Bertini ab Iperio (Recueil des Historiens des
Gaules et de la France 9), 77b: Heribertus Viromandiae Comes proditorum
nequissimus dolens de morte Roberti regni usurpatoris nunc proxime in
bello Suessionico peremti, qui sororem ejus a uxorem habebat...

Yes, Heribert II was the count of Vermandois when King Robert I was killed
in 923 - but the link between them was misunderstood & misstated by later
sources such as this, as I have said several times. Heribert II's wife was a
daughter of Robert I, and contemporary sources make NO mention whatever of a
double relationship between these two men or their offspring, even though
this would have been unavoidable given the to-and-fro of loyalty, friendship
and enmity in their families as recounted in detail by the reliable &
well-informed Flodoard, and by others like Richer who add a few further
sidelights. Ambiguous terms like "gener" in Widukind could be the cause of
the later mistake. However, it was not until modern times that historians
alleged a double relationship, as argued - with some specious supporting
evidence - by Werner, Settipani & others: chroniclers like Iperius just took
a single in-law connection the wrong way.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 01 okt 2005 22:12:35

Dear Newsgroup:

Wanted to re-visit the issue and this is what I turned up. Hopefully,
I have it this right:

Herbert I:

<<Regino, Abbot of Prüm, 840-915: Reginonis chronicon, ed. Georg
Heinrich Pertz (Monumenta Germaniae Historica SS 1, 1826) s.a. 818,
567: Habuit iste Bernardus filium nomine Pippinum, qui tres liberos
genuit, Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 19-21, no. XI.

Page 20, line 19:...interveniente dilecto nobis comite et abate ejusdem
loci Heriberto...17 May 898.

Lines 23-25: ...Nos vero, pro Dei amore et sanctorum martirum
veneratione in quorum honore idem locus constitutus habetur, ad
deprecationem memorati Heribert, id fieri concessimus.

Herbert II:

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 59-60, no. XXVIII.
Circa 900.

Page 59, lines 24-25: Tenebat ea tempestate sceptra Francorum rex
Karolus quem dolo captivaverat Heribertus.

Page 60, lines 8-10: Acta est haec translation a Baldwino cognomina
Calvo anno humanati Verbi nongentesimo, Karoli Regis ab Heriberto
Virmandorum postea capti anno octavo, indictione tertia.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 125-126, no. LVIII.

Page 126, lines 17-18: ...ubi venerabilis comes Heribertus abba
preest...6 November 907.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 209-212, no. XCII.

Page 211, lines14-15: ...una cum comite Heriberto eximioque episcopo
Abbone...14 March 918.

<<Flodoardi annals a.919-966 (Monumenta Germaniae Historica SS 3) s.a.
923, 372: Et Heribertus comes Bernardum, consobrinum suum, cum aliis
legatis, consilium quod per illos agebatur, ut fertur, ignorantibus, ad
Karolum dirigit.

As always, welcome constructive feedback.

SB

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 01 okt 2005 22:42:04

Caught a typo:

Herbert II:

Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 59-60, no. XXVIII.
Circa 900.

Page 60, lines 8-10: Acta est haec translation a Baldwino cognomina
Calvo anno humanati Verbi nongentesimo, Karoli Regis ab Heriberto
Virmandorum postea capti anno octavo, indictione tertia.

Should read as follows:

Page 60, lines 8-10: Acta est haec translatio a Baldwino cognomina
Calvo anno humanati Verbi nongentesimo, Karoli Regis ab Heriberto
Virmandorum postea capti anno octavo, indictione tertia.

Thanks!

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 okt 2005 00:59:42

Rather than pondering over every occurrence of a count Heribert, whether it
was the father or the son, it is easier to bear in mind Regino's statement
under 818, that Heribert (I) killed Count Rodulf (of Cambrai, who died in
896) and was himself killed in revenge not long afterwards. This happened ca
900 & definitely before 6 November 907: the Heribert (II) named in Charles
III's diploma on that date was the same man who later held this king
captive.

Peter Stewart



"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1128201155.173517.136990@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup:

Wanted to re-visit the issue and this is what I turned up. Hopefully,
I have it this right:

Herbert I:

<<Regino, Abbot of Prüm, 840-915: Reginonis chronicon, ed. Georg
Heinrich Pertz (Monumenta Germaniae Historica SS 1, 1826) s.a. 818,
567: Habuit iste Bernardus filium nomine Pippinum, qui tres liberos
genuit, Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 19-21, no. XI.

Page 20, line 19:...interveniente dilecto nobis comite et abate ejusdem
loci Heriberto...17 May 898.

Lines 23-25: ...Nos vero, pro Dei amore et sanctorum martirum
veneratione in quorum honore idem locus constitutus habetur, ad
deprecationem memorati Heribert, id fieri concessimus.

Herbert II:

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 59-60, no. XXVIII.
Circa 900.

Page 59, lines 24-25: Tenebat ea tempestate sceptra Francorum rex
Karolus quem dolo captivaverat Heribertus.

Page 60, lines 8-10: Acta est haec translation a Baldwino cognomina
Calvo anno humanati Verbi nongentesimo, Karoli Regis ab Heriberto
Virmandorum postea capti anno octavo, indictione tertia.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 125-126, no. LVIII.

Page 126, lines 17-18: ...ubi venerabilis comes Heribertus abba
preest...6 November 907.

<<Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923),
ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris: Impr. nationale, 1949), 209-212, no. XCII.

Page 211, lines14-15: ...una cum comite Heriberto eximioque episcopo
Abbone...14 March 918.

<<Flodoardi annals a.919-966 (Monumenta Germaniae Historica SS 3) s.a.
923, 372: Et Heribertus comes Bernardum, consobrinum suum, cum aliis
legatis, consilium quod per illos agebatur, ut fertur, ignorantibus, ad
Karolum dirigit.

As always, welcome constructive feedback.

SB

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 07 okt 2005 22:40:02

Peter: You mentioned in a post that Herbert I Vermandois was
murdered/assassinated. Turned this up on-line. Can you make sense of
this? Would appreciate your assistance.

Thanks!

SB


Annales Vedastini

Anno CM. Karolus vero rex aestivo tempore super Hisam adunato
exercitu resedit tractaturus, quid agerent de suis inimicis. Balduinus
vero perrexit ad ipsum placitum, volens sibi regem reblandiri, ut
terram, quam ei tulerat, redderet. Cumque hoc contradiceret Fulcho
atque Heribertus, Winetmarus inprovise superveniens Fulchoni
archiepiscopo cum suis complicibus, quod dictum nefas est, multis
perfossum vulneribus interfecerunt XVI. Kal. Iulii, corpusque eius
Remis delatum atque in aecclesia beati Remigii positum. Post haec
ordinato episcopo Hereveo Remis synodoque facto, omnes interfectores
episcopi damnaverunt et a liminibus sanctae matris aecclesiae extorres
reddiderunt. Rex vero cum Rothberto et Richardo atque Heriberto
coepit sermocinari de Nortmannis, quid agerent. Unde contigit quadam
die, ut Manasses, quidam ex fidelibus Richardi, cum rege loquens quae
illi non conveniebat de Rothberto locutus est. Quod ubi Rothberto
nuntiatum est, ascenso equo rediit in sua, atque ita omnes
discordantes sine ullo effectu reversi sunt [unusquisque in sua].

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 okt 2005 00:49:29

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1128721202.879311.193700@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter: You mentioned in a post that Herbert I Vermandois was
murdered/assassinated. Turned this up on-line. Can you make sense of
this? Would appreciate your assistance.

Thanks!

SB


Annales Vedastini

Anno CM. Karolus vero rex aestivo tempore super Hisam adunato
exercitu resedit tractaturus, quid agerent de suis inimicis. Balduinus
vero perrexit ad ipsum placitum, volens sibi regem reblandiri, ut
terram, quam ei tulerat, redderet. Cumque hoc contradiceret Fulcho
atque Heribertus, Winetmarus inprovise superveniens Fulchoni
archiepiscopo cum suis complicibus, quod dictum nefas est, multis
perfossum vulneribus interfecerunt XVI. Kal. Iulii, corpusque eius
Remis delatum atque in aecclesia beati Remigii positum. Post haec
ordinato episcopo Hereveo Remis synodoque facto, omnes interfectores
episcopi damnaverunt et a liminibus sanctae matris aecclesiae extorres
reddiderunt. Rex vero cum Rothberto et Richardo atque Heriberto
coepit sermocinari de Nortmannis, quid agerent. Unde contigit quadam
die, ut Manasses, quidam ex fidelibus Richardi, cum rege loquens quae
illi non conveniebat de Rothberto locutus est. Quod ubi Rothberto
nuntiatum est, ascenso equo rediit in sua, atque ita omnes
discordantes sine ullo effectu reversi sunt [unusquisque in sua].

I'm not sure what genealogical suignificance you are looking for in this
passage, but there is none that I'm aware of.

The background to these events can also be found in the annals of
Saint-Vaast. In 895 Balduin II of Flanders and his brother Rodulf had
switched their allegiance from Charles the Simple, king of the Franks, to
Zwentibold, king of Lotharingia. In 896 Rodulf was killed by Heribert I, and
Balduin continued to make a nuisance of himself especially by disputing
power & privileges with Fulco, archbishop of Rheims, who had threatened him
with excommunication. Charles determined to settle this, and Balduin lost
out, approaching Charles himself to obtain the best deal he could. Fulco and
Heribert (I) argued against his cause - then his follower Winetmar
intervened by assassinating the archbishop (however, according to other
sources this was on 17th June 900 rather than 16th as above). Then King
Charles along with Robert, count of Paris & marquis in Neustria (later King
Robert I), Richard the Justiciar, duke of Burgundy, and Heribert, had a
parley to discuss what they would do about the Normans, raiding along the
Oise. Afterwards Manasses, a vassal of Richard, in conversation with
Charles, disparaged Robert who quit the court in dudgeon when he heard about
this.

Peter Stewart

In the summer of 899/900

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 08 okt 2005 01:51:11

I'm not sure what genealogical significance you are looking for in this
passage, but there is none that I'm aware of.

The background to these events can also be found in the annals of
Saint-Vaast. In 895 Balduin II of Flanders and his brother Rodulf had
switched their allegiance from Charles the Simple, king of the Franks, to
Zwentibold, king of Lotharingia. In 896 Rodulf was killed by Heribert I, and
Balduin continued to make a nuisance of himself especially by disputing
power & privileges with Fulco, archbishop of Rheims, who had threatened him
with excommunication. Charles determined to settle this, and Balduin lost
out, approaching Charles himself to obtain the best deal he could. Fulco and
Heribert (I) argued against his cause - then his follower Winetmar
intervened by assassinating the archbishop (however, according to other
sources this was on 17th June 900 rather than 16th as above). Then King
Charles along with Robert, count of Paris & marquis in Neustria (later King
Robert I), Richard the Justiciar, duke of Burgundy, and Heribert, had a
parley to discuss what they would do about the Normans, raiding along the
Oise. Afterwards Manasses, a vassal of Richard, in conversation with
Charles, disparaged Robert who quit the court in dudgeon when he heard about
this.

Peter Stewart

In the summer of 899/900

Peter:

Thanks.

The 16/17th June 900 date caught my interest. Was that the last known
date Herbert I Vermandois was alive? Also fascinating how Charles the
Simple had run-ins with Herbert I and then II. No doubts now about the
parentage issue.

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Herbert II Vermandois

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 okt 2005 03:32:57

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1128732671.595585.231820@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I'm not sure what genealogical significance you are looking for in this
passage, but there is none that I'm aware of.

The background to these events can also be found in the annals of
Saint-Vaast. In 895 Balduin II of Flanders and his brother Rodulf had
switched their allegiance from Charles the Simple, king of the Franks, to
Zwentibold, king of Lotharingia. In 896 Rodulf was killed by Heribert I,
and
Balduin continued to make a nuisance of himself especially by disputing
power & privileges with Fulco, archbishop of Rheims, who had threatened
him
with excommunication. Charles determined to settle this, and Balduin lost
out, approaching Charles himself to obtain the best deal he could. Fulco
and
Heribert (I) argued against his cause - then his follower Winetmar
intervened by assassinating the archbishop (however, according to other
sources this was on 17th June 900 rather than 16th as above). Then King
Charles along with Robert, count of Paris & marquis in Neustria (later
King
Robert I), Richard the Justiciar, duke of Burgundy, and Heribert, had a
parley to discuss what they would do about the Normans, raiding along the
Oise. Afterwards Manasses, a vassal of Richard, in conversation with
Charles, disparaged Robert who quit the court in dudgeon when he heard
about
this.

Peter Stewart

In the summer of 899/900

Peter:

Thanks.

The 16/17th June 900 date caught my interest. Was that the last known
date Herbert I Vermandois was alive? Also fascinating how Charles the
Simple had run-ins with Herbert I and then II. No doubts now about the
parentage issue.

The 16/17 June 900 date is a bit problematic: as you know, the Saint-Vaast
annalist covered this under 899, the last rubric in the compilation, but
narrated the events taking place in summer on the Oise after reporting
others in November of that year, so that editors place the assassination of
Archbishop Fulco in 900 (hence the note to myself that was left below my
signature, before I remembered which year's summer was correct). However,
Regino reported the killing of Fulco under 903, adding "circa haec tempora".

Fulco was evidently succeeded in Rheims by Herveus in 900: it is reasonable
to assume that the Saint-Vaast annalist would have known this and - since he
did not report the death of Heribert I at all - that he understood the
father and not the son to be the opponent of Balduin at this time. But the
accuracy of this is not certain. At any rate, if it was Heribert I, and his
own death took place "not long" after he had killed Balduin's brother Rodulf
in 896, he can only have remained alive for a fairly short while after the
killing of Fulco. He was certainly dead before 6 November 907, and probably
by the end of 900.

Peter Stewart

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