Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Innumerable website contains garbled accounts of the identity of
Mabel/Mary/Margaret de Staunton/Stanton, wife of >insert name here<
Coggeshall, and ancestress of the main Coggeshall line; she is often
said to be daughter of Humphrey de Stanton.
In Roskell's History of Parliament, 1386-1421, we read that Thomas
Coggeshall, MP - and his elder brother, Sir Henry Coggeshall, MP
[ancestor of the Prince of Wales] were sons of "Sir John Coggeshall,
MP, of Codham Hall and Coggeshall, Essex, probably by his first wife
Margaret, sister and heir of Humphrey Staunton of Alresford, Essex."
Sir John died in 1361. A couple of PROCAT documents probably throw
light on his wife's identify:
C 143/91/1 6 Edward II (c1312)
Anfrid de Staunton and Philip his brother to retain a messuage and land
in Alresford to themselves and the heirs of the said Anfrid, acquired
of Philip de Thunderle who retains land in Rushmere: Essex, Suffolk
C 143/92/9 6 Edward II
Anfrid de Staunton to settle messuages and land in Weeley on himself,
Margery his wife and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
Philip de Staunton for life, remainder to Mabel daughter of John de
Staunton and the heirs of her body, remainder to the right heirs of the
grantor, who retains land in Alresford and Great Bentley
Additionally, an earlier document might suggest further avenues for
enquiry in relation to the de Stauntons:
C 143/40/15 30 Edward I (c1301)
Maud, late the wife of Richard Bataille, to grant messuages, rent and
land in Weeley, Great Bentley, Chiche and St Osyth to Anfred de
Staunton, her nephew and heir: Essex.
It is likely that Sir John de Coggeshall's wife was Mabel, daughter of
John de Staunton of Alresford, and sister and heiress to Anfrid de
Staunton.
Mabel/Mary/Margaret de Staunton/Stanton, wife of >insert name here<
Coggeshall, and ancestress of the main Coggeshall line; she is often
said to be daughter of Humphrey de Stanton.
In Roskell's History of Parliament, 1386-1421, we read that Thomas
Coggeshall, MP - and his elder brother, Sir Henry Coggeshall, MP
[ancestor of the Prince of Wales] were sons of "Sir John Coggeshall,
MP, of Codham Hall and Coggeshall, Essex, probably by his first wife
Margaret, sister and heir of Humphrey Staunton of Alresford, Essex."
Sir John died in 1361. A couple of PROCAT documents probably throw
light on his wife's identify:
C 143/91/1 6 Edward II (c1312)
Anfrid de Staunton and Philip his brother to retain a messuage and land
in Alresford to themselves and the heirs of the said Anfrid, acquired
of Philip de Thunderle who retains land in Rushmere: Essex, Suffolk
C 143/92/9 6 Edward II
Anfrid de Staunton to settle messuages and land in Weeley on himself,
Margery his wife and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
Philip de Staunton for life, remainder to Mabel daughter of John de
Staunton and the heirs of her body, remainder to the right heirs of the
grantor, who retains land in Alresford and Great Bentley
Additionally, an earlier document might suggest further avenues for
enquiry in relation to the de Stauntons:
C 143/40/15 30 Edward I (c1301)
Maud, late the wife of Richard Bataille, to grant messuages, rent and
land in Weeley, Great Bentley, Chiche and St Osyth to Anfred de
Staunton, her nephew and heir: Essex.
It is likely that Sir John de Coggeshall's wife was Mabel, daughter of
John de Staunton of Alresford, and sister and heiress to Anfrid de
Staunton.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Wow!!! See in between.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:02 AM
Subject: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Your remark, that Sir Henry Coggeshall is an ancestor of the Prince of
Wales, caught my attention. In Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of the
Prince of Wales we find
Sir William Coggeshall, of Codham Hall (ancestor Q115107) born 20 July 1358,
in 1379 mentioned in Milan, married Antiocha/Mary Hawkwood, daughter of
_that_ Sir John Hawkwood. Sir William is the father of Alice Coggeshall
(died in 1422) who married Sikr John Tyrell, of Heron. Paget does not give
parents to Sir William.
My question is, is "your" Sir Henry father of this Sir William? Any other
details also very much appreciated.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:02 AM
Subject: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Innumerable website contains garbled accounts of the identity of
Mabel/Mary/Margaret de Staunton/Stanton, wife of >insert name here
Coggeshall, and ancestress of the main Coggeshall line; she is often
said to be daughter of Humphrey de Stanton.
In Roskell's History of Parliament, 1386-1421, we read that Thomas
Coggeshall, MP - and his elder brother, Sir Henry Coggeshall, MP
[ancestor of the Prince of Wales] were sons of "Sir John Coggeshall,
MP, of Codham Hall and Coggeshall, Essex, probably by his first wife
Margaret, sister and heir of Humphrey Staunton of Alresford, Essex."
Your remark, that Sir Henry Coggeshall is an ancestor of the Prince of
Wales, caught my attention. In Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of the
Prince of Wales we find
Sir William Coggeshall, of Codham Hall (ancestor Q115107) born 20 July 1358,
in 1379 mentioned in Milan, married Antiocha/Mary Hawkwood, daughter of
_that_ Sir John Hawkwood. Sir William is the father of Alice Coggeshall
(died in 1422) who married Sikr John Tyrell, of Heron. Paget does not give
parents to Sir William.
My question is, is "your" Sir Henry father of this Sir William? Any other
details also very much appreciated.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Sutliff
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Yes, Leo, Henry d. 1375 was father of William (1358-1426). His wife was Joan
Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great Sampford, Essex and Exning,
Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d. bef.
1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. may also be an ancestor of Prince Charles.
I know the Countess of Snowdon also has a St. George descent and this was
posted at the time of their marriage.
The St. George line also ties into the Burgoyne, Hutton and Freville lines
discussed currently in other threads.
HS
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:003701c5b7e4$140474b0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
Welle, daughter of Sir William Welle of Great Sampford, Essex and Exning,
Suffolk.
I believe Alice Cogeshall's sister Matilda, wife of John St. George d. bef.
1425 of Hatley St. George, Camb. may also be an ancestor of Prince Charles.
I know the Countess of Snowdon also has a St. George descent and this was
posted at the time of their marriage.
The St. George line also ties into the Burgoyne, Hutton and Freville lines
discussed currently in other threads.
HS
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:003701c5b7e4$140474b0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
Wow!!! See in between.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:02 AM
Subject: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Innumerable website contains garbled accounts of the identity of
Mabel/Mary/Margaret de Staunton/Stanton, wife of >insert name here
Coggeshall, and ancestress of the main Coggeshall line; she is often
said to be daughter of Humphrey de Stanton.
In Roskell's History of Parliament, 1386-1421, we read that Thomas
Coggeshall, MP - and his elder brother, Sir Henry Coggeshall, MP
[ancestor of the Prince of Wales] were sons of "Sir John Coggeshall,
MP, of Codham Hall and Coggeshall, Essex, probably by his first wife
Margaret, sister and heir of Humphrey Staunton of Alresford, Essex."
Your remark, that Sir Henry Coggeshall is an ancestor of the Prince of
Wales, caught my attention. In Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of the
Prince of Wales we find
Sir William Coggeshall, of Codham Hall (ancestor Q115107) born 20 July
1358, in 1379 mentioned in Milan, married Antiocha/Mary Hawkwood, daughter
of _that_ Sir John Hawkwood. Sir William is the father of Alice Coggeshall
(died in 1422) who married Sikr John Tyrell, of Heron. Paget does not give
parents to Sir William.
My question is, is "your" Sir Henry father of this Sir William? Any other
details also very much appreciated.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Gjest
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Thanks Hap - do you mean the Countess of Wessex, rather than Snowdon?
I hadn't realised that Sophie Rhys-Jones had a St George descent, which
is of interest to me.
regards
Michael
I hadn't realised that Sophie Rhys-Jones had a St George descent, which
is of interest to me.
regards
Michael
-
Sutliff
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Of course, foolish error.
Sophie's St. George descent was discussed at the time of their marriage and
should be in the archives. It is via her Molesworth descent.
IIRC both Sophie and Edward descend from Sir George St. George (15831660)
and his wife Catherine Gifford of Ballymagarrett, Roscommon. Or it may be
the previous generation of Sir Richard St. George, Clarenceux King of Arms
and his wife Elizabeth St. John.
HS
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1126605823.214939.201960@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sophie's St. George descent was discussed at the time of their marriage and
should be in the archives. It is via her Molesworth descent.
IIRC both Sophie and Edward descend from Sir George St. George (15831660)
and his wife Catherine Gifford of Ballymagarrett, Roscommon. Or it may be
the previous generation of Sir Richard St. George, Clarenceux King of Arms
and his wife Elizabeth St. John.
HS
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1126605823.214939.201960@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Thanks Hap - do you mean the Countess of Wessex, rather than Snowdon?
I hadn't realised that Sophie Rhys-Jones had a St George descent, which
is of interest to me.
regards
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Great, thanks - have found it, and Leo had already (with typical
generosity) emailed it to me from his notes. I believe the Dukes of
Leinster are also descended from the Irish branch of the St George
family. I knew the Prince of Wales (and thus the Earl of Wessex) had a
Coggeshall descent, but didn't appreciate that this was also through
the St Georges. It's a small world - provided one can get back 700
years to start with!
MAR
generosity) emailed it to me from his notes. I believe the Dukes of
Leinster are also descended from the Irish branch of the St George
family. I knew the Prince of Wales (and thus the Earl of Wessex) had a
Coggeshall descent, but didn't appreciate that this was also through
the St Georges. It's a small world - provided one can get back 700
years to start with!
MAR
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
In message of 14 Sep, kleigh1@cox.net ("Kelly Leighton") wrote:
<snip of all the useful stuff>
Go to this URL:
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/N ... IEVAL.html
And follow the instructions on subscribing.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
<snip of all the useful stuff>
Please excuse my poor citation skills, this is my first posting,
I've been lurking for quite some time. I'm not even sure this'll
get posted, I'm not a member of the list. I view it through
Rootsweb's archiver and haven't found where to actually get on.
Go to this URL:
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/N ... IEVAL.html
And follow the instructions on subscribing.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Kelly Leighton
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Newsgroup, Leo, Mjcar,
Please excuse me if you get this as a double posting, I attempted to post this 2 days ago and it has not shown up anywhere nor have I received replies to my offline attempts to send this to you both.
I hope it is of use in the current discussions.
Kelly in RI
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelly Leighton
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Leo, Mjcar,
I have done some work on the Coggeshall line and found Moriarty's work "The Coggeshalls of Halstead And Hundon" in the Jan. 1946 issue of The New England Historical and Genealogical Register (pp 22- 24) to be very helpful. He provides IPMs of several generations of Coggeshalls and although he assigns Hawkwood's daughter as wife to Henry, He does provide evidence to support William who died in 1426 as son of this Henry. "1426 William" is father of Alice who married John Tyrell. Bob Coggeshall's website does a decent job of defending Antiocha Hawkwood as wife of William vs Henry. Pg 92 of O.F. Brown's work The Tyrells of England seems to support her marriage to William.
Moriarty doesn't include brother John's brother Thomas in his chart though. Proof of this Thomas can be found on the A2A site http://www.a2a.org.uk/default.asp of the Norfolk Records Office FILE - Grant - ref. Phi/326/3 577 x 6 - date: 1373 which states:
Grant by Henry de Coggeshale knight and Thomas his brother to Thomas Sharedelowe knight of the manor of Bradeker in Shropham and Hockham in exchange for the manor of Newehalle in Boreham, Springfield Parva, Baddow Parva, Waltham, Broomfield and Hatfield Peverel, Essex. 21st April
A source which has some information on the earlier Coggeshalls (and dovetails well with Moriarty's data) is the Knights of Edward I (pg 220) which has been mentioned on the newsgroup for a while.
Jennifer Ward's Women of The English Nobility And Gentry (pp 25-6) has an entry (sourced as PRO 135/113/16; in Latin) of Henry Coggeshall and his wife Joan daughter of William De Welles.
The archives have sevarl posts of value on this such as John Steele Gordon's post of 23 Nov 1998 14:10:08 GMT and John Stuart's post of Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:30:00 EDT.
The 1558 Essex visitation Coggeshall entry is pretty garbled, as Moriarty mentions, but you can see some of the truth buried in amongst the confusion.
http://www.users.nyc.pipeline.com/~kiowa/eng.htm seems to be a good site, but based on the Kts of Edw I entry, I disagree with Bob's position on the early lineage. I cannot seem to get hold of him though, his email address is quite old. I'd like to find the source of his http://www.users.nyc.pipeline.com/~kiowa/knight.htm page which has the ring of authenticity but which I'd like to source anyway.
I don't think the question as to exactly whom the mother was of Blanche Coggeshall (wife of John Dorward of Bocking from whom I might descend if the sources are accurate) has been settled.
Please excuse my poor citation skills, this is my first posting, I've been lurking for quite some time. I'm not even sure this'll get posted, I'm not a member of the list. I view it through Rootsweb's archiver and haven't found where to actually get on.
I can provide amplification of any and all of the above stuff if any hits home. It looks like I just shotgunned everything I have on the Coggeshall line in case anything is useful. Sorry about that
I look forward to comments/criticism.
Mr. Kelly Leighton in RI
Please excuse me if you get this as a double posting, I attempted to post this 2 days ago and it has not shown up anywhere nor have I received replies to my offline attempts to send this to you both.
I hope it is of use in the current discussions.
Kelly in RI
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelly Leighton
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Leo, Mjcar,
I have done some work on the Coggeshall line and found Moriarty's work "The Coggeshalls of Halstead And Hundon" in the Jan. 1946 issue of The New England Historical and Genealogical Register (pp 22- 24) to be very helpful. He provides IPMs of several generations of Coggeshalls and although he assigns Hawkwood's daughter as wife to Henry, He does provide evidence to support William who died in 1426 as son of this Henry. "1426 William" is father of Alice who married John Tyrell. Bob Coggeshall's website does a decent job of defending Antiocha Hawkwood as wife of William vs Henry. Pg 92 of O.F. Brown's work The Tyrells of England seems to support her marriage to William.
Moriarty doesn't include brother John's brother Thomas in his chart though. Proof of this Thomas can be found on the A2A site http://www.a2a.org.uk/default.asp of the Norfolk Records Office FILE - Grant - ref. Phi/326/3 577 x 6 - date: 1373 which states:
Grant by Henry de Coggeshale knight and Thomas his brother to Thomas Sharedelowe knight of the manor of Bradeker in Shropham and Hockham in exchange for the manor of Newehalle in Boreham, Springfield Parva, Baddow Parva, Waltham, Broomfield and Hatfield Peverel, Essex. 21st April
A source which has some information on the earlier Coggeshalls (and dovetails well with Moriarty's data) is the Knights of Edward I (pg 220) which has been mentioned on the newsgroup for a while.
Jennifer Ward's Women of The English Nobility And Gentry (pp 25-6) has an entry (sourced as PRO 135/113/16; in Latin) of Henry Coggeshall and his wife Joan daughter of William De Welles.
The archives have sevarl posts of value on this such as John Steele Gordon's post of 23 Nov 1998 14:10:08 GMT and John Stuart's post of Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:30:00 EDT.
The 1558 Essex visitation Coggeshall entry is pretty garbled, as Moriarty mentions, but you can see some of the truth buried in amongst the confusion.
http://www.users.nyc.pipeline.com/~kiowa/eng.htm seems to be a good site, but based on the Kts of Edw I entry, I disagree with Bob's position on the early lineage. I cannot seem to get hold of him though, his email address is quite old. I'd like to find the source of his http://www.users.nyc.pipeline.com/~kiowa/knight.htm page which has the ring of authenticity but which I'd like to source anyway.
I don't think the question as to exactly whom the mother was of Blanche Coggeshall (wife of John Dorward of Bocking from whom I might descend if the sources are accurate) has been settled.
Please excuse my poor citation skills, this is my first posting, I've been lurking for quite some time. I'm not even sure this'll get posted, I'm not a member of the list. I view it through Rootsweb's archiver and haven't found where to actually get on.
I can provide amplification of any and all of the above stuff if any hits home. It looks like I just shotgunned everything I have on the Coggeshall line in case anything is useful. Sorry about that
I look forward to comments/criticism.
Mr. Kelly Leighton in RI
-
Gjest
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
Kelly
Many thanks for the information that you kindly forwarded, and have
posted. It is very useful both as a confirmation and as a pointer to
new sources. The A2A reference to Thomas was particuarly interesting,
and backs up what Roskell has to say in HoP
I will check the Coggeshall IPMs as soon as I am able; I wonder why
Moriaty confused the husband of Miss Hawkwood? IPMs may also clear up
the identity of the daughters, including Blanche.
In the meantime, I would be very interested to see what 'Knights of
Edward I' has to say about the Coggeshalls.
For information, the HoP article on Sir William C. (1386-1421 Vol II p
616-618) states that by his first marriage he had one son, who died
during his father's lifetime, and four daughters, and by his second
marriage (to Ricarda Huish/Fichet nee Inkpen) possibly one further
child who also o.v.p. It names his third wife as Margaret, but stops
there (unlike the Essex Visitation).
Roskell adds that Sir William acted as trustee of the estates of John
Doreward (d 1420) during the 1420s; that his daughter Margaret married
firstly to William Bateman, and his daughter Alice (sic) married John
Tyrell of Herons, MP.
MAR
Many thanks for the information that you kindly forwarded, and have
posted. It is very useful both as a confirmation and as a pointer to
new sources. The A2A reference to Thomas was particuarly interesting,
and backs up what Roskell has to say in HoP
I will check the Coggeshall IPMs as soon as I am able; I wonder why
Moriaty confused the husband of Miss Hawkwood? IPMs may also clear up
the identity of the daughters, including Blanche.
In the meantime, I would be very interested to see what 'Knights of
Edward I' has to say about the Coggeshalls.
For information, the HoP article on Sir William C. (1386-1421 Vol II p
616-618) states that by his first marriage he had one son, who died
during his father's lifetime, and four daughters, and by his second
marriage (to Ricarda Huish/Fichet nee Inkpen) possibly one further
child who also o.v.p. It names his third wife as Margaret, but stops
there (unlike the Essex Visitation).
Roskell adds that Sir William acted as trustee of the estates of John
Doreward (d 1420) during the 1420s; that his daughter Margaret married
firstly to William Bateman, and his daughter Alice (sic) married John
Tyrell of Herons, MP.
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Mabel de Staunton, wife of Sir John de Coggeshall
It is likely that Sir John de Coggeshall's wife was Mabel, daughter of
John de Staunton of Alresford, and sister and heiress to Anfrid de
Staunton.
Just to round thigs up: as noted in separate threads, the wife of Sir
John de Coggeshall was in fact Margaret de Staunton, one of the sisters
of Anfrid de Staunton. Her sister Mabel married Roger de Stonham, as
detailed in the IPMs for Anfrid and his wife Margery.
MAR