Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

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Gjest

Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2005 18:00:02

Per the suggestion of someone on this list, I had added a blurb to the
biography of Baldwin II here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_II_of_Jerusalem
mentioning that Runciman "History of the Crusades", claims an "Ida of
Boulogne" as his mother. [Should this be... grandmother ?]

But another contributor says Runciman does not.
I don't have a copy of Runciman, maybe someone else can find and quote what
Runciman says exactly about the exact nature of the relationship in which
Baldwin II is the "cousin" of Baldwin I.

Thanks
Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 09 sep 2005 18:00:03

Will Johnson wrote:
Per the suggestion of someone on this list, I had added a blurb to the
biography of Baldwin II here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_II_of_Jerusalem
mentioning that Runciman "History of the Crusades", claims an "Ida of
Boulogne" as his mother. [Should this be... grandmother ?]

But another contributor says Runciman does not.
I don't have a copy of Runciman, maybe someone else can find and quote
what
Runciman says exactly about the exact nature of the relationship in which
Baldwin II is the "cousin" of Baldwin I.

As discussed here previously, Runciman was wrong about this in any case, but
if you are describing his erroneous explanation, it should be grandmother.

Runciman shows Baldwin II as the son of Hugh I of Rethel, by Melisende,
daughter of Bouchard of Montlhéry, Count of Corbeil, and shows Hugh I as the
son of Baldwin of le Bourg, Count of Rethel, by Ida, daughter of Eustace I,
Count of Boulogne.

This is from the chart pedigree in "A History of the Crusades", vol. 2
(paperback edition, 1990; first published 1952).

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2005 21:22:02

In a message dated 9/9/05 9:15:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< Runciman shows Baldwin II as the son of Hugh I of Rethel, by Melisende,
daughter of Bouchard of Montlhéry, Count of Corbeil, and shows Hugh I as the
son of Baldwin of le Bourg, Count of Rethel, by Ida, daughter of Eustace I,
Count of Boulogne.

This is from the chart pedigree in "A History of the Crusades", vol. 2
(paperback edition, 1990; first published 1952). >>

Thanks for this Chris.
I've added the details to the discussion on Baldwin II here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Baldw ... _Jerusalem

And the synopsis to his main article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_II_of_Jerusalem

Will Johnson

Ginny Wagner

RE: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 10 sep 2005 03:09:01

I've posted this because from what I can tell, it refers to
the lineage of the kings of Jerusalem and speaks of an Ida
of Boloniensium, Geoffrey, Baldwin, Jerusalem and may shed
some light as to conclusions reached re Ida.

If anything doesn't read properly to anyone who is
knowledgeable about translating, please feel free to email
me and I'll double check that a typo hasn't led you astray.
I tried to be careful with my typing but I'm not a typist
and don't know the language in which this is written. ;-)

This is basically a volume of cartularies from St. Bertin,
formerly Sithiense, that has charters from the seventh
century until the late twelfth century, among others.

From:

Collection des Cartulaires de France, Cartulaire de L'Abbaye
de Saint-Bertin, publie Par M. Guerard, Member de
L'Institut, Paris, Imprimerie Royale, M DCCC XLI

Page 227-8:

1114.

"XIV.

"Exemplar Carte jamdicti Episcopi, de Cimiterio Ecclesie
Sancti Nicolai de Grevelinga.

"'Quia apostolus dicit, _Quecunque facitis in verbo aut in
opere, omnia in nomine Domini facite;_ om ekis ogotir mp,ome
Dei Patris omnipotentis et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, notum
sit cunctis fidei catholice culoribus, quia ego Johannes,
Dei gratia, Morinorum episcopus, cimiterium, ad tumulanda
mortuorum corpora, concedo ecclesiole sancticotidianus
mundane rei defectus satis ostendit. Unde ego Ida,
Boloniensium, Dei gratia, comitissa, notifico tam futuris
quam presentibus qualiter, ob salutem anime mee, necnon pro
anima domini mei comitis Eustachii, et pro incolumitate
filiorum meorum[1] Godefridi et Balduini, qui contra
paganorum incursus, ex precepto apostolico, Iherosolimam
profecti sunt, omnes consuetudines et comitatum, et quitquid
ad me pertinebat de terra, quam Ongyz[2] et Berwoldus, Deo
et sancto Bertino, ad elemosinam pauperum, tradiderunt,
domno Lambeto, abbati de cenobio ejusdem Christi confessoris
Bertini, et fratribus ibidem Deo servientibus, perpetuo
possidendas concesserunt; ea videlicet ratione, ut nullus de
heredibus predictorum virorum de terra illa sibi quicquam
amplius usurpare audeat, nec comes Boloniensis, neque
quisquam ex parte ejus de consuetudinibus seu comitatu
illius aliquid exigere presumat, sed libera et quieta, ad
usus pauperum, in perpetuum permaneat. Quod si quis
infringere conatus fuerit, eterne maledictionis vinculo
obligatus, in inferno cum Juda, traditore Domini, debitas
penas exsolvat, nisi dibna satisfactione cito penitens
resipuerit.

"'Actum in villa Merch, anno dominice incarnatinis millesimo
nonagesimo octavo, indictione prima[5], regnante Philippo,
rege Francorum, in presentia spectabilium personarum.'

"Secuntur Versus in Laudem Virorum in Jamscripto Exemplari
Contentorum

"Contigit in vestris quiddam, Taruanna, diebus,
Unde Deo laudes immensas reddere debes;
Qui dignando tuos elegit parrochianos,
Quos Iherosolime reges dedit et patriarchas:
Primo Godefridus, Balduinus vero secundus;
Ejusdem frater post hunc regnavit: uterque
Filius Eustachii comitis, quos nobilis Ida,
Christe, [t]ue genti feliciter edidit omni.

[fn1] Suppl. ex. Miraeo, _Eustathii_.
[fn2] Apud Miraeum, _Ondigir_.
[fn3] Sic etiam apud Miraeum. In annum tamen 1098 incidit
indict. 6.

Respectfully,
Ginny Wagner

Peter Stewart

Re: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 sep 2005 05:21:11

The text posted below is a conflation of two documents in the edition cited,
the first six lines (with some gobbledigook: "om ekis ogotir mp,ome" for "in
ejus igitur nomine") & the rubric coming from a charter of Bishop Jean of
Mons on p. 225, and the remainder from Countess Ida's charter on p 228.

For anyone taking notes, the relevant part is not additional to the evidence
already discussed about Ida and her sons - this was the same charter cited,
pointing out the son's name missing in the edition used, on 18 June in the
thread "Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Richard de Brewes" at:

http://tinyurl.com/9jgj7

Peter Stewart


""Ginny Wagner"" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCEILMENLHOGHNKOOPOOIEBDGEAA.ginnywagner@austin.rr.com...
I've posted this because from what I can tell, it refers to
the lineage of the kings of Jerusalem and speaks of an Ida
of Boloniensium, Geoffrey, Baldwin, Jerusalem and may shed
some light as to conclusions reached re Ida.

If anything doesn't read properly to anyone who is
knowledgeable about translating, please feel free to email
me and I'll double check that a typo hasn't led you astray.
I tried to be careful with my typing but I'm not a typist
and don't know the language in which this is written. ;-)

This is basically a volume of cartularies from St. Bertin,
formerly Sithiense, that has charters from the seventh
century until the late twelfth century, among others.

From:

Collection des Cartulaires de France, Cartulaire de L'Abbaye
de Saint-Bertin, publie Par M. Guerard, Member de
L'Institut, Paris, Imprimerie Royale, M DCCC XLI

Page 227-8:

1114.

"XIV.

"Exemplar Carte jamdicti Episcopi, de Cimiterio Ecclesie
Sancti Nicolai de Grevelinga.

"'Quia apostolus dicit, _Quecunque facitis in verbo aut in
opere, omnia in nomine Domini facite;_ om ekis ogotir mp,ome
Dei Patris omnipotentis et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, notum
sit cunctis fidei catholice culoribus, quia ego Johannes,
Dei gratia, Morinorum episcopus, cimiterium, ad tumulanda
mortuorum corpora, concedo ecclesiole sancticotidianus
mundane rei defectus satis ostendit. Unde ego Ida,
Boloniensium, Dei gratia, comitissa, notifico tam futuris
quam presentibus qualiter, ob salutem anime mee, necnon pro
anima domini mei comitis Eustachii, et pro incolumitate
filiorum meorum[1] Godefridi et Balduini, qui contra
paganorum incursus, ex precepto apostolico, Iherosolimam
profecti sunt, omnes consuetudines et comitatum, et quitquid
ad me pertinebat de terra, quam Ongyz[2] et Berwoldus, Deo
et sancto Bertino, ad elemosinam pauperum, tradiderunt,
domno Lambeto, abbati de cenobio ejusdem Christi confessoris
Bertini, et fratribus ibidem Deo servientibus, perpetuo
possidendas concesserunt; ea videlicet ratione, ut nullus de
heredibus predictorum virorum de terra illa sibi quicquam
amplius usurpare audeat, nec comes Boloniensis, neque
quisquam ex parte ejus de consuetudinibus seu comitatu
illius aliquid exigere presumat, sed libera et quieta, ad
usus pauperum, in perpetuum permaneat. Quod si quis
infringere conatus fuerit, eterne maledictionis vinculo
obligatus, in inferno cum Juda, traditore Domini, debitas
penas exsolvat, nisi dibna satisfactione cito penitens
resipuerit.

"'Actum in villa Merch, anno dominice incarnatinis millesimo
nonagesimo octavo, indictione prima[5], regnante Philippo,
rege Francorum, in presentia spectabilium personarum.'

"Secuntur Versus in Laudem Virorum in Jamscripto Exemplari
Contentorum

"Contigit in vestris quiddam, Taruanna, diebus,
Unde Deo laudes immensas reddere debes;
Qui dignando tuos elegit parrochianos,
Quos Iherosolime reges dedit et patriarchas:
Primo Godefridus, Balduinus vero secundus;
Ejusdem frater post hunc regnavit: uterque
Filius Eustachii comitis, quos nobilis Ida,
Christe, [t]ue genti feliciter edidit omni.

[fn1] Suppl. ex. Miraeo, _Eustathii_.
[fn2] Apud Miraeum, _Ondigir_.
[fn3] Sic etiam apud Miraeum. In annum tamen 1098 incidit
indict. 6.

Respectfully,
Ginny Wagner

Ginny Wagner

RE: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 10 sep 2005 09:27:02

<The text posted below is a conflation of two documents in
the edition cited,
the first six lines (with some gobbledigook: "om ekis ogotir
mp,ome" for "in
ejus igitur nomine") & the rubric coming from a charter of
Bishop Jean of
Mons on p. 225, and the remainder from Countess Ida's
charter on p 228.>

Aargh. I am so embarrassed. You are absolutely right ... I
typed from the wrong page and even messed that up. I'm glad
to know that the charter has already been posted and is part
of the ongoing discussion. Thanks so much for catching my
mistake and for posting the link to the earlier discussion.
Best,
Ginny Wagner

Peter Stewart

Re: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 sep 2005 11:39:34

""Ginny Wagner"" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCEILMENLHOGHNKOOPOOCEBKGEAA.ginnywagner@austin.rr.com...
The text posted below is a conflation of two documents in
the edition cited,
the first six lines (with some gobbledigook: "om ekis ogotir
mp,ome" for "in
ejus igitur nomine") & the rubric coming from a charter of
Bishop Jean of
Mons on p. 225, and the remainder from Countess Ida's
charter on p 228.

Aargh. I am so embarrassed. You are absolutely right ... I
typed from the wrong page and even messed that up. I'm glad
to know that the charter has already been posted and is part
of the ongoing discussion. Thanks so much for catching my
mistake and for posting the link to the earlier discussion.

I hope you are not really feeling embarrassed, Ginny, as there's definitely
no reason to be & I didn't mean it to appear so.

The purpose of a newsgoup, whether moderated or not, is to share information
& to get this as nearly right as all the participants can by the END of a
thread, not necessarily at the start.

Some of the most useful discussions begin with slips or oversights, and we
all make these. You were generous to share the text of Ida's charter, and as
the matter of her later namesake has recently shown, there is always a
chance that details have been missed, even from sources that should have
been thoroughly examined.

Peter Stewart

Gordon Banks

Re: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 10 sep 2005 20:21:01

Wikipedia could be a very useful genealogical resource if knowledgeable
persons would add an ancestry paragraph to various people, like you did.

On Fri, 2005-09-09 at 17:13 +0100, Chris Phillips wrote:
Will Johnson wrote:
Per the suggestion of someone on this list, I had added a blurb to the
biography of Baldwin II here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_II_of_Jerusalem
mentioning that Runciman "History of the Crusades", claims an "Ida of
Boulogne" as his mother. [Should this be... grandmother ?]

But another contributor says Runciman does not.
I don't have a copy of Runciman, maybe someone else can find and quote
what
Runciman says exactly about the exact nature of the relationship in which
Baldwin II is the "cousin" of Baldwin I.

As discussed here previously, Runciman was wrong about this in any case, but
if you are describing his erroneous explanation, it should be grandmother.

Runciman shows Baldwin II as the son of Hugh I of Rethel, by Melisende,
daughter of Bouchard of Montlhry, Count of Corbeil, and shows Hugh I as the
son of Baldwin of le Bourg, Count of Rethel, by Ida, daughter of Eustace I,
Count of Boulogne.

This is from the chart pedigree in "A History of the Crusades", vol. 2
(paperback edition, 1990; first published 1952).

Chris Phillips


Ginny Wagner

RE: Baldwin II of Jerusalem and Runciman

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 10 sep 2005 21:36:01

;-) Thank you, Peter. Very kind of you. Ginny

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