BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

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Tony Ingham

BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 04 sep 2005 05:55:02

From Plantagenet Ancestry p.281.

ECHINGHAM

11. JOAN ARUNDEL, elder daughter. She married (1st.) WILLIAM DE BRYAN
(or BRIAN) Knt., of Kemsing and Seale, Kent, and Woodmansterne, Surrey,
Captain of Merk Castle in the Marches of Calais, 2nd. son of Guy de
Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, by his second wife, Elizabeth, daughter of
William de Montagu, 1st. Earl of Salisbury, 3rd. Lord Montagu, Marshal
of England. They had no issue. He died 23 Sept. 1395, and was buried at
Seale, Kent.

She married (2nd) before 1400 (as his first wife) WILLIAM ECHINGHAM,
Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son of William de Echingham, Sussex by his
wife Elizabeth. They had one son, Thomas, Knt., and one daughter,
Joan. She was a legatee in the 1401 will of Agnes Arundel, widow of her
brother, William Arundel, K.G. She died 1 Sept. 1404.

He married (2nd) Alice Batisford, daughter and co-heiress of William
Batisford, of Buckholt (in Bexhill), Sussex, by Margery, daughter and
heiress of Simon de Peplesham. They had two daughters, Elizabeth (wife
of Thomas Hoo, Knt., and Thomas Lewknor, Knt.) and Joan (wife of William
Rykhill). SIR WILLIAM ECHINGHAM died 20 March 1412/13. They were
buried at Etchingham, Sussex.


Citations . . . . . [all secondary sources]



Children of Joan Arundel, by William Echingham, Knt. :

i. THOMAS ECHINGHAM, Knt.

ii. JOAN ECHINGHAM, married JOHN BAYNTON, Knt., of Faulstone (in
Bishopston), Wiltshire [see BAYNTON 13]. Ancestors of Anne Baynton,
Mary Gye.

...................................................................

According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his wife,
have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan their
mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., . . .


which leads me to ask this question. Given that Joan, wife of John (NOT
William, his father, married to Rosa Medlan when he made his will in
1407) Rykhill and Elizabeth are identified as sisters, both being
daughters of Joan (dead by 1413/4), wife of William Echingham, how does
the content of the Joan Arundel file stand up to scrutiny?

The stated marriage of Joan Echingham and John Baynton looks very
dubious, to say the least. Their son and heir Robert is said to have
been born (according to his father's inquisition), about 1439. Thus we
have Joan (born by 1404 when her mother Joan was dead) having her first
son at the youthful age of 35+. Did she marry previous to John Boynton?
Perhaps to John Rikhill?

Is there a primary source to indicate that the Baynton/Echingham
marriage took place? If, indeed, it did, perhaps William Echingham
married another Joan (as well as Alice Batisford) in the years from
1404-1413.

The descendants of Anne Baynton and Mary Gye could be in danger of
losing their Plantagenet Ancestry!

Would Douglas Richardson comment on the above please?

Tony Ingham

John Higgins

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 04 sep 2005 08:41:02

FWIW, the Baynton write-up in RPA cites, among other secondary sourcers,
"The Ancestry of Abel Lunt" by Walter Goodwin Davis. But RPA conveniently
fails to note that Davis says quite specifically that "there is thus far no
sound documentary evidence found that ... Sir John Baynton's wife and the
mother of his heir was Joan, daughter of Sir William de Etchingham".
Clearly Davis does NOT support RPA's statement in this case, and citing it
in support without qualification is - to put it bluntly - dishonest. [But,
to be fair, this is carried forwarded more-or-less verbatim (and apparently
unchecked) from PA2 and PA1 - although both of those volumes qualify their
record of the marriage by adding "it is said", a hesitation which was
dropped by RPA.]

The chronological issue of Joan, wife of Sir John Baynton, having her first
child at age 35, ca. 1439, was raised by Louise Staley in a post in
February of this year. I don't believe there was any resolution of this
then. But the answer may lie in the other known marriage of Sir John
Baynton.

Sir John Baynton's widow was Katherine Payne, who was herself widow (as his
3rd wife) of John Stourton, MP, of Preston Plucknet, Somerset, who d. 16 Dec
1438 [see Roskell, HOP 1386-1421, 4:490-2]. Sir John Baynton's son Sir
Robert is said to have been 26 at the time his father's IPM in 1465 and
thus born ca. 1439. It's not impossible that Katherine Payne and Sir John
Baynton married quickly after John Stourton's death and had a son Robert.
This seems more acceptable chronologically than the speculative marriage to
Joan Echingham. But it clearly remains unproven as well.....

Of course this alternative means that the royal descents for Baynton and Gye
go away....oh well....

FWIW, Gary Boyd Roberts in RD600 covers the Echingham/Baynton/Gye descent,
but says that "further documentary proof...would be desirable".

This looks like another entry for Will Johnson's new webpage of RPA
corrections....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ingham" <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?


From Plantagenet Ancestry p.281.

ECHINGHAM

11. JOAN ARUNDEL, elder daughter. She married (1st.) WILLIAM DE BRYAN
(or BRIAN) Knt., of Kemsing and Seale, Kent, and Woodmansterne, Surrey,
Captain of Merk Castle in the Marches of Calais, 2nd. son of Guy de
Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, by his second wife, Elizabeth, daughter of
William de Montagu, 1st. Earl of Salisbury, 3rd. Lord Montagu, Marshal
of England. They had no issue. He died 23 Sept. 1395, and was buried at
Seale, Kent.

She married (2nd) before 1400 (as his first wife) WILLIAM ECHINGHAM,
Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son of William de Echingham, Sussex by his
wife Elizabeth. They had one son, Thomas, Knt., and one daughter,
Joan. She was a legatee in the 1401 will of Agnes Arundel, widow of her
brother, William Arundel, K.G. She died 1 Sept. 1404.

He married (2nd) Alice Batisford, daughter and co-heiress of William
Batisford, of Buckholt (in Bexhill), Sussex, by Margery, daughter and
heiress of Simon de Peplesham. They had two daughters, Elizabeth (wife
of Thomas Hoo, Knt., and Thomas Lewknor, Knt.) and Joan (wife of William
Rykhill). SIR WILLIAM ECHINGHAM died 20 March 1412/13. They were
buried at Etchingham, Sussex.


Citations . . . . . [all secondary sources]



Children of Joan Arundel, by William Echingham, Knt. :

i. THOMAS ECHINGHAM, Knt.

ii. JOAN ECHINGHAM, married JOHN BAYNTON, Knt., of Faulstone (in
Bishopston), Wiltshire [see BAYNTON 13]. Ancestors of Anne Baynton,
Mary Gye.

..................................................................

According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his wife,
have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan their
mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., . . .


which leads me to ask this question. Given that Joan, wife of John (NOT
William, his father, married to Rosa Medlan when he made his will in
1407) Rykhill and Elizabeth are identified as sisters, both being
daughters of Joan (dead by 1413/4), wife of William Echingham, how does
the content of the Joan Arundel file stand up to scrutiny?

The stated marriage of Joan Echingham and John Baynton looks very
dubious, to say the least. Their son and heir Robert is said to have
been born (according to his father's inquisition), about 1439. Thus we
have Joan (born by 1404 when her mother Joan was dead) having her first
son at the youthful age of 35+. Did she marry previous to John Boynton?
Perhaps to John Rikhill?

Is there a primary source to indicate that the Baynton/Echingham
marriage took place? If, indeed, it did, perhaps William Echingham
married another Joan (as well as Alice Batisford) in the years from
1404-1413.

The descendants of Anne Baynton and Mary Gye could be in danger of
losing their Plantagenet Ancestry!

Would Douglas Richardson comment on the above please?

Tony Ingham


Douglas Richardson royala

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 04 sep 2005 17:24:46

Dear Tony ~

Thank you for your good post.

I have a couple of quick questions for you:

First, what is your source for the inquisition you have cited below?

Second: I believe there is a monumental brass which shows that Joan
Arundel, wife of Sir William Echingham, died 1 September 1404. In your
post, you correctly state she died in 1404. But, elsewhere you say she
died "by 1413/4." Which date is correct? Or, are you saying that Sir
William Echingham had two wives named Joan? And, what about his
Batisford marriage?

I'd appreciate it greatly if you would set out your Echingham pedigree
with proper documentation for us to see. Then we can compare notes.

By the way, I believe there is evidence which proves that Joan and
Elizabeth Echingham's mother was a Batisford. When time permits, I'll
try to post it for you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

< John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
< daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his
wife,
< have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
< which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan
their
< mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., .
.. .

Tony Ingham

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 05 sep 2005 05:15:04

Douglas,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

The dates for Joan Echinghams death are both correct.

According to the monumental inscription she died 1 Sep 1404.

Examining the two daughters of William and Joan in isolation I used the
date of the Inquisition, i.e. by 1414/5 (not 1412/3 which is an error on
my part).

Regarding William's wives.
1. We know that he married Joan d'Arundel (probably soon after 1395)
and that she died in1404.

2. We are told that he married _Alice_ Batisford. This comes from
Archaeologia Cantiana XXVIII. p.228, a secondary source which is
unavailable. If anyone has access to this work I'd very much appreciate
a copy. The arms on the Echingham monument, Echingham impaling
Batisford quartering Peplesham indicate that he married a Batisford.

3. Though probably unlikely, he could have married another Joan.


The Inquisition was published in :

Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous (Chancery) preserved in the
Public Record Office.
Publisher/Date: London : H. M. Stationery Office, 1916-. v. 7.
1399-1422. at pp.278- .

I'm not sure about the term proper documentation. Do you mean a whole
heap of references bundled together at the end of the pedigree? Could
you give me an example please?


Tony Ingham


Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

Dear Tony ~

Thank you for your good post.

I have a couple of quick questions for you:

First, what is your source for the inquisition you have cited below?

Second: I believe there is a monumental brass which shows that Joan
Arundel, wife of Sir William Echingham, died 1 September 1404. In your
post, you correctly state she died in 1404. But, elsewhere you say she
died "by 1413/4." Which date is correct? Or, are you saying that Sir
William Echingham had two wives named Joan? And, what about his
Batisford marriage?

I'd appreciate it greatly if you would set out your Echingham pedigree
with proper documentation for us to see. Then we can compare notes.

By the way, I believe there is evidence which proves that Joan and
Elizabeth Echingham's mother was a Batisford. When time permits, I'll
try to post it for you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his
wife,
have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan
their
mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., .
. .




John Brandon

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 05 sep 2005 15:16:47

The descendants of Anne Baynton and Mary Gye could be in danger of
losing their Plantagenet Ancestry!

Of course Mrs. Maverick has another line that is sound (through
Stukeley, etc).

Gjest

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2005 17:31:43

Tony Ingham wrote:

2. We are told that he married _Alice_ Batisford. This comes from
Archaeologia Cantiana XXVIII. p.228, a secondary source which is
unavailable. If anyone has access to this work I'd very much appreciate
a copy. The arms on the Echingham monument, Echingham impaling
Batisford quartering Peplesham indicate that he married a Batisford.


Some of the Archaelogica Cantiana back issues are online; most of
Volume XXVIII's aren't, although the Contents page is:

Archaeologia Cantiana - Vol. 28 1909 page v + vi

Contents
PAGE

List of Officers, Societies in Union x, Rules xiv, List of
Members xvii,
Cash Accounts for 1905 to 1908 xxxiii, Proceedings, Reports, etc.,
1905 to 1908 li
ASHFORD CHURCH. Paper read by Canon A. J Pearman at Ashford Meeting
lxxviii
RESEARCHES AND DISCOVERIES IN KENT, 1905-7. By George Payne, F.S.A
lxxxviii
OBITUARY NOTICE-GEORGE MATTHEWS ARNOLD, F.S.A. xcvii
NOTICES OF BOOKS AND BOOKS ADDED TO LIBRARY xcix
HORSMONDEN CHURCH. Letter from Aymer Vallance, F.S.A. civ
EDITORIAL NOTE cvii
1. FOLKESTONE PARISH CHURCH By W. L. Rutton, F.S.A. 01
2. MSS. RELATING TO GOUDHURST AND NEIGHBOURHOOD.
By R. H. Ernest Hill, A.R.I.B.A
10
3. PEDIGREE OF THE FAMILY OF DE FYNES. By W. L. King 22
4. CINQUE PORTS. NOTES FROM MINUTE BOOKS OF THE CORPORATION OF
FAVERSHAM. By F. F. Giraud
28
5. APPENDIX TO VISITATIONS OF THE ARCHDEACON OF CANTERBURY.
By Arthur Hussey
75
6. HERNE WILLS: ABSTRACTS. By Arthur Hussey 83
7. CHURCH PLATE IN KENT. No. IV By the Rev C. E. Woodruff, M.A. 115
8. STAINED GLASS WINDOWS OF NETTLESTEAD CHURCH. By W. E. Ball 157
contents continued page vi

9. NETTLESTEAD CHURCH -
ARCHITECTURAL NOTES. By Rev. G. M. Livett, F.S.A.
EXTRACTS FROM NOTES. By Rev. W. F. Cobb .
251
278
10. STAPLEHURST REGISTER. By J. S. ff. Chamberlain, M.A. 283
11. BREDHURST PATEN 301
12. ARCHITECTURAL NOTES ON PATRIXBOURNE CHURCH.
By Rev. G. M. Livett, F.S.A
305
13. VICARS, MASTERS OR PROVOSTS, AND PERPETUAL CURATES OF THE
CHURCH OF SS. GREGORY AND MARTIN, WYE. By Rev. T. S. Frampton, F.S.A

311
14. CHURCH OF ST. PETER AT PEMBURY. By W. Townsend Storrs 327
15. ALLINGTON CASTLE. By Sir W. Martin Conway, M.A., F.S.A. 337
16. SYBILL ARMS AT LITTLE MOTE, EYNSFORD. By George C. Druce 363
17. SYBILL OF EYNSFORD AND FARNINGHAM. By R. H. Ernest Hill,
A.R.I.B.A. 373
18. OLD CHIMNEY-PIECE FROM BACK'S HOUSE, MILTON-BY-SITTINGBOURNE.
By Aymer Vallance, F.S.A.
376
19. IGHTHAM CHURCH-CAWNE WINDOW AND MONUMENT. 379
GENERAL INDEX 381

These are being constantly updated, however, so it might be worth
checking later. The website is:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Resea ... /Intro.htm

(There are full copies of the volumes in the Society of Genealogists'
library in London, if I remember rightly)

Michael

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 05 sep 2005 19:27:06

In message of 5 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Tony Ingham wrote:

2. We are told that he married _Alice_ Batisford. This comes from
Archaeologia Cantiana XXVIII. p.228, a secondary source which is
unavailable. If anyone has access to this work I'd very much appreciate
a copy. The arms on the Echingham monument, Echingham impaling
Batisford quartering Peplesham indicate that he married a Batisford.


Some of the Archaelogica Cantiana back issues are online; most of
Volume XXVIII's aren't, although the Contents page is:

<snip>

(There are full copies of the volumes in the Society of Genealogists'
library in London, if I remember rightly)

Indeed you are right. Go to this web location to browse the catalogue:

http://www.sog.org.uk/sogcat/access/

and enter Archaeologia Cantiana in a Title search.

Anyone may find what is in SoG's catalogue, you don't have to be a
member. And if you find something that appeals to you and are in
London, you can use the library for a modest fee for a few hours.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tony Ingham

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 06 sep 2005 03:12:01

Hello Michael,

Thank you for helping out with the Archaelogica Cantiana indexing.

The article is STAINED GLASS WINDOWS OF NETTLESTEAD CHURCH. By W. E.
Ball, which Charlotte Smith has mentioned to me before.

Page 28 is not much good without the rest of the article which appears
to run for some 40 odd pages with references to the Batisford and
Peplesham families. Tis a frustrating business having no access to these
works.

All the best,

Tony Ingham





mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Tony Ingham wrote:



2. We are told that he married _Alice_ Batisford. This comes from
Archaeologia Cantiana XXVIII. p.228, a secondary source which is
unavailable. If anyone has access to this work I'd very much appreciate
a copy. The arms on the Echingham monument, Echingham impaling
Batisford quartering Peplesham indicate that he married a Batisford.




Some of the Archaelogica Cantiana back issues are online; most of
Volume XXVIII's aren't, although the Contents page is:

Archaeologia Cantiana - Vol. 28 1909 page v + vi

Contents
PAGE

List of Officers, Societies in Union x, Rules xiv, List of
Members xvii,
Cash Accounts for 1905 to 1908 xxxiii, Proceedings, Reports, etc.,
1905 to 1908 li
ASHFORD CHURCH. Paper read by Canon A. J Pearman at Ashford Meeting
lxxviii
RESEARCHES AND DISCOVERIES IN KENT, 1905-7. By George Payne, F.S.A
lxxxviii
OBITUARY NOTICE-GEORGE MATTHEWS ARNOLD, F.S.A. xcvii
NOTICES OF BOOKS AND BOOKS ADDED TO LIBRARY xcix
HORSMONDEN CHURCH. Letter from Aymer Vallance, F.S.A. civ
EDITORIAL NOTE cvii
1. FOLKESTONE PARISH CHURCH By W. L. Rutton, F.S.A. 01
2. MSS. RELATING TO GOUDHURST AND NEIGHBOURHOOD.
By R. H. Ernest Hill, A.R.I.B.A
10
3. PEDIGREE OF THE FAMILY OF DE FYNES. By W. L. King 22
4. CINQUE PORTS. NOTES FROM MINUTE BOOKS OF THE CORPORATION OF
FAVERSHAM. By F. F. Giraud
28
5. APPENDIX TO VISITATIONS OF THE ARCHDEACON OF CANTERBURY.
By Arthur Hussey
75
6. HERNE WILLS: ABSTRACTS. By Arthur Hussey 83
7. CHURCH PLATE IN KENT. No. IV By the Rev C. E. Woodruff, M.A. 115
8. STAINED GLASS WINDOWS OF NETTLESTEAD CHURCH. By W. E. Ball 157
contents continued page vi

9. NETTLESTEAD CHURCH -
ARCHITECTURAL NOTES. By Rev. G. M. Livett, F.S.A.
EXTRACTS FROM NOTES. By Rev. W. F. Cobb .
251
278
10. STAPLEHURST REGISTER. By J. S. ff. Chamberlain, M.A. 283
11. BREDHURST PATEN 301
12. ARCHITECTURAL NOTES ON PATRIXBOURNE CHURCH.
By Rev. G. M. Livett, F.S.A
305
13. VICARS, MASTERS OR PROVOSTS, AND PERPETUAL CURATES OF THE
CHURCH OF SS. GREGORY AND MARTIN, WYE. By Rev. T. S. Frampton, F.S.A

311
14. CHURCH OF ST. PETER AT PEMBURY. By W. Townsend Storrs 327
15. ALLINGTON CASTLE. By Sir W. Martin Conway, M.A., F.S.A. 337
16. SYBILL ARMS AT LITTLE MOTE, EYNSFORD. By George C. Druce 363
17. SYBILL OF EYNSFORD AND FARNINGHAM. By R. H. Ernest Hill,
A.R.I.B.A. 373
18. OLD CHIMNEY-PIECE FROM BACK'S HOUSE, MILTON-BY-SITTINGBOURNE.
By Aymer Vallance, F.S.A.
376
19. IGHTHAM CHURCH-CAWNE WINDOW AND MONUMENT. 379
GENERAL INDEX 381

These are being constantly updated, however, so it might be worth
checking later. The website is:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Resea ... /Intro.htm

(There are full copies of the volumes in the Society of Genealogists'
library in London, if I remember rightly)

Michael




Tony Ingham

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 06 sep 2005 09:53:01

Douglas,

Here is relevent part of ECHINGHAM in similar format to that presented
in R.P.A.

ECHINGHAM

11. JOAN ARUNDEL, elder daughter. She married (1st.) WILLIAM DE BRYAN
(or BRIAN) Knt., of Kemsing and Seale, Kent, and Woodmansterne, Surrey,
Captain of Merk Castle in the Marches of Calais, 2nd. son of Guy de
Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, by his second wife, Elizabeth, daughter of
William de Montagu, 1st. Earl of Salisbury, 3rd. Lord Montagu, Marshal
of England. They had no issue. He died 23 Sept. 1395, and was buried at
Seale, Kent.

She married (2nd) before 22 Feb 1400/1401 (as his first wife) WILLIAM
ECHYNGHAM, Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son & heir of William de
Echyngham and his wife Elizabeth. They had one son, Thomas, Knt., and
two daughters, Joan (wife of John Rykhill) and Elizabeth (wife of Thomas
Hoo, Knt., and Thomas Lewknor, Knt.). She was the legatee, named as 'my
sister Dame Briane' in the 1401 will of Agnes Arundel L.G., widow of her
brother, William Arundel K.G. She died 1 Sept. 1404 and was buried in
Etchingham church.

He may have married (2nd) Alice Batisford, daughter and co-heiress of
William Batisford, of Buckholt (in Bexhill), Sussex, by Margery,
daughter and heiress of Simon de Peplesham. A coat bearing the arms of
Echyngham impaling Batisford and Peplesford quarterly was one of four
attached to the Echyngham memorial floor slab in Etchingham church.

SIR WILLIAM ECHYNGHAM died 20 March 1412/13. He was buried, with Joan,
his first wife, in Etchingham church.

Children of Joan Arundel, by William Echingham, Knt. :

i. THOMAS ECHINGHAM, Knt. [see next].


12. THOMAS ECHYNGHAM, Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son and heir by his
father's first marriage, born about 1401 (aged 13 in 1413/4). He
married, between 1421 and 1424, MARGARET KNYVET, widow of John Marny,
Knt., of Layer Marny, Essex (died s.p.m.1420-1421), and daughter of John
Knyvet, Knt., of Southwick, Northamptonshire, Mendlesham, Suffolk, etc.,
by Joan, daughter of John Botetourt, Knt. SIR THOMAS ECHYNGHAM died 15
Oct 1444 (will proved at Lambeth 28 Oct 1444) and was buried at
Etchingham. His widow, Margaret, was living 1467.

I do have full citations for all the content at variance with R.P.A.
They are all from primary sources.

If you have a query about any particular point I will answer with the
citation.

Tony Ingham



Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

Dear Tony ~

Thank you for your good post.

I have a couple of quick questions for you:

First, what is your source for the inquisition you have cited below?

Second: I believe there is a monumental brass which shows that Joan
Arundel, wife of Sir William Echingham, died 1 September 1404. In your
post, you correctly state she died in 1404. But, elsewhere you say she
died "by 1413/4." Which date is correct? Or, are you saying that Sir
William Echingham had two wives named Joan? And, what about his
Batisford marriage?

I'd appreciate it greatly if you would set out your Echingham pedigree
with proper documentation for us to see. Then we can compare notes.

By the way, I believe there is evidence which proves that Joan and
Elizabeth Echingham's mother was a Batisford. When time permits, I'll
try to post it for you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his
wife,
have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan
their
mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., .
. .




John Brandon

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 06 sep 2005 14:02:40

Of course Mrs. Maverick has another line that is sound (through
Stukeley, etc).

Since Charlotte emailed to ask me about this line, I'll post it (from
RPA):

Henry II = Ida (his mistress)
William Longespee = Ela of Salisbury
Stephen Longespee = Emeline de Ridelsford
Ela Longespee = Roger la Zouche
Alan la Zouche = Eleanor de Segrave
Maud la Zouche = Robert de Holand
Elizabeth de Holand = Henry FitzRoger
John FitzRoger = Alice __
Elizabeth FitzRoger = Richard Stukeley
Hugh Stukeley = Katherine Affeton
Nicholas Stukeley = Thomasine Cockworthy
Thomas Stukeley = Anne Wood
Margery Stukeley = Charles Farringdon
Anne Farringdon = Thomas Dowrish
Grace Dowrish = Robert Gye
Mary Gye = Rev. John Maverick

Has anybody ever looked into one of John G. Hunt's statements:
"Westcote, _op. cit._ [i.e., _A View of Devon in MDCXXX_], p. 618,
shows that Grace Dowrish descended from Thomas Fulford, of Fulford,
knt., whose wife was a Courtenay of
Powderham and descended from Edward I. ... Westcote's account may be
correct, although it disagrees with that given in Vivian, and should
therefore be carefully investigated before it is accepted" (NEHGR,
115:253).

Disagreeing with Vivian may actually improve the chances of Westcote's
accuracy. I nominate Robert Battle to check into this, as he's a
descendant.

Tony Ingham

Re: BAYNTON Plantagenet Ancestry?

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 08 sep 2005 05:16:04

Douglas,

Apparently, time restraints, or indifference, have precluded you from
posting to the list that "evidence which proves that Joan and Elizabeth
Echingham's mother was a Batisford", and also a response to my last
mailing on the subject which is reproduced below.

Douglas,

Here is relevent part of ECHINGHAM in similar format to that
presented in R.P.A.

ECHINGHAM

11. JOAN ARUNDEL, elder daughter. She married (1st.) WILLIAM DE
BRYAN (or BRIAN) Knt., of Kemsing and Seale, Kent, and Woodmansterne,
Surrey, Captain of Merk Castle in the Marches of Calais, 2nd. son of
Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, by his second wife, Elizabeth,
daughter of William de Montagu, 1st. Earl of Salisbury, 3rd. Lord
Montagu, Marshal of England. They had no issue. He died 23 Sept.
1395, and was buried at Seale, Kent.

She married (2nd) before 22 Feb 1400/1401 (as his first wife) WILLIAM
ECHYNGHAM, Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son & heir of William de
Echyngham and his wife Elizabeth. They had one son, Thomas, Knt., and
two daughters, Joan (wife of John Rykhill) and Elizabeth (wife of
Thomas Hoo, Knt., and Thomas Lewknor, Knt.). She was the legatee,
named as 'my sister Dame Briane' in the 1401 will of Agnes Arundel
L.G., widow of her brother, William Arundel K.G. She died 1 Sept.
1404 and was buried in Etchingham church.

He may have married (2nd) Alice Batisford, daughter and co-heiress of
William Batisford, of Buckholt (in Bexhill), Sussex, by Margery,
daughter and heiress of Simon de Peplesham. A coat bearing the arms
of Echyngham impaling Batisford and Peplesford quarterly was one of
four attached to the Echyngham memorial floor slab in Etchingham church.

SIR WILLIAM ECHYNGHAM died 20 March 1412/13. He was buried, with
Joan, his first wife, in Etchingham church.

Children of Joan Arundel, by William Echingham, Knt. :

i. THOMAS ECHINGHAM, Knt. [see next].


12. THOMAS ECHYNGHAM, Knt., of Etchingham, Sussex, son and heir by his
father's first marriage, born about 1401 (aged 13 in 1413/4). He
married, between 1421 and 1424, MARGARET KNYVET, widow of John Marny,
Knt., of Layer Marny, Essex (died s.p.m.1420-1421), and daughter of
John Knyvet, Knt., of Southwick, Northamptonshire, Mendlesham,
Suffolk, etc., by Joan, daughter of John Botetourt, Knt. SIR THOMAS
ECHYNGHAM died 15 Oct 1444 (will proved at Lambeth 28 Oct 1444) and
was buried at Etchingham. His widow, Margaret, was living 1467.

I do have full citations for all the content at variance with R.P.A.
They are all from primary sources.

If you have a query about any particular point I will answer with the
citation.

Tony Ingham


I am sending, by separate post, a presentation of the three marriages of
Margaret Knyvet. This will include citations.


Tony Ingham



Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

Dear Tony ~

Thank you for your good post.

I have a couple of quick questions for you:

First, what is your source for the inquisition you have cited below?

Second: I believe there is a monumental brass which shows that Joan
Arundel, wife of Sir William Echingham, died 1 September 1404. In your
post, you correctly state she died in 1404. But, elsewhere you say she
died "by 1413/4." Which date is correct? Or, are you saying that Sir
William Echingham had two wives named Joan? And, what about his
Batisford marriage?

I'd appreciate it greatly if you would set out your Echingham pedigree
with proper documentation for us to see. Then we can compare notes.

By the way, I believe there is evidence which proves that Joan and
Elizabeth Echingham's mother was a Batisford. When time permits, I'll
try to post it for you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
According to an Inquisition held at Winchelsea on Tuesday after St.
Hilary 2 Henry V (15 Jan 1414/5), WILLIAM ECHINGHAM and his wife JOAN
had two daughters holding a small portion of land, needed for the
rebuilding of the wall surrounding the town of Winchelsea ;

John Rykhill, as in right of Joan his wife, and Elizabeth her sister,
daughters of William lord of Etchingham, knight, and of Joan his
wife,
have 36 3/8th yards in two tofts lying together in the same quarter,
which descended to them by hereditary right on the death of Joan
their
mother and are held of the king in chief by a fee-farm of 8 3/4d., .
. .




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