1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers

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Helen Carlisle

1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers

Legg inn av Helen Carlisle » 03 sep 2005 21:35:02

I have joined this list and would like to say hello to everybody. I have
enjoyed the volume of activity on the list although have been somewhat
perplexed at some of the "sparring" that has been going on - but that is
probably because I have joined in the middle of some debates! I have
particularly noted the mailings regarding the Stanley family who were the
3rd creation of the Earls of Derby.

I would very much appreciate some pointers on where to look regarding a
puzzle that is preventing me from acceptiing a family tree at face value
regarding possible links to the 1st creation of the Earls of Derby, the De
FERRERS family.

I have recently received a tree from which "theoretically" my husband
descends, and which goes back to SYBIL DE FERRERS (daughter of the 5th Earl
of Derby (1st Creation) who married Sir FRANCIS DE BOHUN sometime around
1247.

Working back from my husband (with dates), this colleague/distant relation
has linked back to EVA BURFORD who "would appear" to have been born ca.
1454.

Working forward from SYBIL DE FERRARS and FRANCIS DE BOHUN, their daughter,
ELIZABETH, is projected as having married a Sir JOHN LISLEY, and their
daughter, EVA LISLEY is supposed to have married a Sir JOHN BURFORD.. This
EVA BURFORD is, therefore, their daughter. She apparently married a THOMAS
ROKESLEY around 1470/1480.

My problem is that my informant has not been able to give me any actual
dates or time frames for these and these dates are my own calculations
coupled with some entries from the on-line IGI (I appreciate that thiis is
not fool-proof by the way).. This means that EVA LISLEY must have been
born somewhere around 1285 (give or take quite a few years!), but JOHN
BURFORD appears to have been born ca. 1420. Since we have (by simple
arithmetic) a difference of some 140 years between husband and wife, my
little grey cells are telling me that something is wrong here!

Having queried this with my informant, I have not received any reply and
they may well be still looking at this anomoly.

Would anybody be able to shed any light on any of these names, or perhaps
advise me the best way to solve the problem. Any thoughts would be very
much appreciated.

Kind regards and best wishes to all,
Helen

Gjest

Re: 1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 sep 2005 21:35:03

See this page which might point you in the right direction vis-a-vis
some sources (NB the Ferrers link on the site appears to contain an
error, i.e. there are two Sibyl Ferrers shown on the linked Ferrers
page, who are said to have been daughters of successive Earls of Derby
and to have married "Frank de Bohun of Midhurst died 1272" and "Frank
de Mohun of Midhurst died 1272" respectively).

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... bohun2.htm

Cheers

Michael

John Higgins

Re: 1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers

Legg inn av John Higgins » 04 sep 2005 00:13:02

I think your chronology difficulty is due to the fact that the connection
between Bohun and Lisley [or Lisle] is a few generations later than you
indicate.

There is a very extensive article on the Bohuns of Midhurst by the noted
genealogist G. W. Watson in "The Genealogist [new series]" vol. 28 in two
parts, pp. 1-16 and 114-123 with a few addenda at 173-4. It cites numerous
primary sources and includes a pedigree chart which helps to clarify things.
Except for the first generation, this is also shown in the recently
published Magna Carta Ancestry.

In summary, Watson gives the following line:

Sir Frank de Bohun of Midhurst (d. 14 Sept 1273); m. (1) before 21 Sept
1247 Sibyl, 4th dau. of William de Ferrars [sic], Earl of Derby, by his 1st
wife Sibyl, 3rd dau. of William le Mareschal, the elder, Earl of Pembroke.

Sir John de Bohun (d. 28 Sept 1284); m. Joan, only dau. and heir of
Bartholomew de la Chapelle (she was b. Dec 1256 and d. shortly before 23
March 1327/8).

James de Bohun (b. 3 Feb 1280/1, d. shortly before 30 May 1306); m. (as her
1st spouse) Joan, younger dau. and co-heir of Sir William de Braose [or
Brewes] by his first (unknown) wife; she d. before 23 June 1324.

Sir John de Bohun (bap. 13 Nov 1301, d. 5 Dec 1367); m. (1) before 1326
Isabel, said to have been dau. of Henry Tregoz of Goring, Sussex.

Joan [not Elizabeth] Bohun; m. John de Lisle [or Lisley] of Gatcombe, Isle
of Wight (b. 13 June 1324, d. 31 March 1349).

Watson says this last couple had a son John (dsp 1369) and a daughter
Elizabeth, wife of John de Bramshott [which couple has a considerable number
of living descendants, including Prince William and the several well-known
authors of the family of the Earls of Longford]. Watson says that Joan
Bohun had a sister (not a daughter) named Eva, but does not give her a
husband. I can't confirm the Burford connection, although I believe I've
seen it before.

Hope this helps a bit....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Carlisle" <helen.carlisle@ntlworld.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 12:33 PM
Subject: 1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers


I have joined this list and would like to say hello to everybody. I have
enjoyed the volume of activity on the list although have been somewhat
perplexed at some of the "sparring" that has been going on - but that is
probably because I have joined in the middle of some debates! I have
particularly noted the mailings regarding the Stanley family who were the
3rd creation of the Earls of Derby.

I would very much appreciate some pointers on where to look regarding a
puzzle that is preventing me from acceptiing a family tree at face value
regarding possible links to the 1st creation of the Earls of Derby, the De
FERRERS family.

I have recently received a tree from which "theoretically" my husband
descends, and which goes back to SYBIL DE FERRERS (daughter of the 5th
Earl
of Derby (1st Creation) who married Sir FRANCIS DE BOHUN sometime around
1247.

Working back from my husband (with dates), this colleague/distant relation
has linked back to EVA BURFORD who "would appear" to have been born ca.
1454.

Working forward from SYBIL DE FERRARS and FRANCIS DE BOHUN, their
daughter,
ELIZABETH, is projected as having married a Sir JOHN LISLEY, and their
daughter, EVA LISLEY is supposed to have married a Sir JOHN BURFORD.. This
EVA BURFORD is, therefore, their daughter. She apparently married a
THOMAS
ROKESLEY around 1470/1480.

My problem is that my informant has not been able to give me any actual
dates or time frames for these and these dates are my own calculations
coupled with some entries from the on-line IGI (I appreciate that thiis is
not fool-proof by the way).. This means that EVA LISLEY must have been
born somewhere around 1285 (give or take quite a few years!), but JOHN
BURFORD appears to have been born ca. 1420. Since we have (by simple
arithmetic) a difference of some 140 years between husband and wife, my
little grey cells are telling me that something is wrong here!

Having queried this with my informant, I have not received any reply and
they may well be still looking at this anomoly.

Would anybody be able to shed any light on any of these names, or perhaps
advise me the best way to solve the problem. Any thoughts would be very
much appreciated.

Kind regards and best wishes to all,
Helen

Helen Carlisle

Re: 1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers

Legg inn av Helen Carlisle » 05 sep 2005 19:40:01

Dear Michael,

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to reply. The site you
quote looks quite interesting and I think I shall be sitting on the computer
this evening digesting it all.

I am very grateful to you for your kindness and really appreciate your
efforts on my behalf.

Kind regards,
Helen

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: 1st Earls of Derby - The De Ferrers


See this page which might point you in the right direction vis-a-vis
some sources (NB the Ferrers link on the site appears to contain an
error, i.e. there are two Sibyl Ferrers shown on the linked Ferrers
page, who are said to have been daughters of successive Earls of Derby
and to have married "Frank de Bohun of Midhurst died 1272" and "Frank
de Mohun of Midhurst died 1272" respectively).

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... bohun2.htm

Cheers

Michael

Svar

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