Dear Newsgroup ~
The following below is the information I currently have in my files on
Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor de Fiennes, wife of Richard de
Vernon. The information is basically a very rough draft. If anyone
has additional information, I'd appreciate it if they would post it
here on the newsgroup. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
1. GILES DE FIENNES, Knt., of White Waltham, Berkshire, and, in right
of his wife, of Old Court (in Wartling) and Marsham (in Fairlight),
Sussex, younger son. He married SIBYL FILLIOL, daughter and heiress of
William Filliol, of Old Court (in Wartling), Sussex, by Cecily, sister
of Aylmer de Chaunceux. They had one son, John, and one daughter,
Eleanor (wife of Richard de Vernon). In 1270-1272 he and his older
brother, William de Fiennes, went on crusade in the Holy Land under the
leadership of Lord Edward. He was granted free warren in all his
demesne lands in Old Court (in Wartling) and Marsham (in Fairlight),
Sussex in 1290. He was summoned to serve against the Scots in 1297 and
1301. In 1314 he and his wife, Sibyl, granted the reversion of the
manor of Old Court (in Wartling), Sussex to William de Echingham.
Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiq. of Hertford 2 (1821): 9-11 (Fiennes
pedigree). G. Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiq. of the County of Buckingham 2
(1847): 469-472 (omits this generation). C.Ch.R. 2 (1898): 234, 256,
267, 345. VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 90. VCH Sussex 9 (1937): 139, 177.
G.J. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 164 (arms of
Giles de Fiennes: Azure, three lions rampant or, a label gules).
Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de Vern
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
In message of 2 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
A Label is a bar near the top of the shield with three (or more) prongs
facing down: (you MUST set your font to non-proportional, eg Courier)
___________________________________
|__ _____________ ____________ __|
/ \ / \ / \
/____\ /____\ /____\
A label usually means an eldest son, but it can also be a mere charge
on a few coats. Royal sons and daughters will have unique charges on
each of the "points" of the label; this enables each royal child to be
identified uniquely for ever (hopefully). I wonder in this case
whether this label had any significance for Giles de Fiennes.
Gules means red.
Your interpretation of that blazon is spot on.
This is dangerously near the time of origin of arms (1125-1150) and I
would wonder how fixed his arms were.
In the Medieval Ordinary of Arms, Vol I, p. 314, they show a Geoffrey,
earl of Anjou, as bearing Azure, 6 lions or (with a 'field Gules?'
beside it). Their reference is Sandford's Genealogical History of the
Kings of England, pub Nicholson & Knaplock, London 1707 and compiled by
Hugh Stanford London who lived from 1884-1979 (just to show that there
is a degree of thoroughness in this volume).
On principle I doubt it, I do not believe genealogy can be deduced
from the design of arms; there is no substitute for written evidence
describing a relationship. (Though impalings and quarterings definitely
have meanings.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In a message dated 9/2/05 2:15:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
(arms of Giles de Fiennes: Azure, three lions rampant or, a label
gules).
I'm not sure what a label is nor what gules means.
A Label is a bar near the top of the shield with three (or more) prongs
facing down: (you MUST set your font to non-proportional, eg Courier)
___________________________________
|__ _____________ ____________ __|
/ \ / \ / \
/____\ /____\ /____\
A label usually means an eldest son, but it can also be a mere charge
on a few coats. Royal sons and daughters will have unique charges on
each of the "points" of the label; this enables each royal child to be
identified uniquely for ever (hopefully). I wonder in this case
whether this label had any significance for Giles de Fiennes.
Gules means red.
But doesnt the rest of them mean "A blue background and three gold lions"
Your interpretation of that blazon is spot on.
he shield of Geoffrey [Plantagenet] 1113-1151, Count of Anjou shows seven
gold lions on a blue background.
This is dangerously near the time of origin of arms (1125-1150) and I
would wonder how fixed his arms were.
In the Medieval Ordinary of Arms, Vol I, p. 314, they show a Geoffrey,
earl of Anjou, as bearing Azure, 6 lions or (with a 'field Gules?'
beside it). Their reference is Sandford's Genealogical History of the
Kings of England, pub Nicholson & Knaplock, London 1707 and compiled by
Hugh Stanford London who lived from 1884-1979 (just to show that there
is a degree of thoroughness in this volume).
Is there a connection here ?
On principle I doubt it, I do not believe genealogy can be deduced
from the design of arms; there is no substitute for written evidence
describing a relationship. (Though impalings and quarterings definitely
have meanings.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
In a message dated 9/2/05 2:15:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< (arms of Giles de Fiennes: Azure, three lions rampant or, a label gules).
I'm not sure what a label is nor what gules means.
But doesnt the rest of them mean "A blue background and three gold lions"
he shield of Geoffrey [Plantagenet] 1113-1151, Count of Anjou shows seven
gold lions on a blue background.
Is there a connection here ?
Thanks
Will
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< (arms of Giles de Fiennes: Azure, three lions rampant or, a label gules).
I'm not sure what a label is nor what gules means.
But doesnt the rest of them mean "A blue background and three gold lions"
he shield of Geoffrey [Plantagenet] 1113-1151, Count of Anjou shows seven
gold lions on a blue background.
Is there a connection here ?
Thanks
Will
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1125695683.557598.293600@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Goodness me - I once described some notes of my own on a particular subject
as "sketchy and incomplete", and Richardson repeatedly tried to twist this
into a confession of general inadequacy.
Now he is himself admittedly relying on "a very rough draft" in his "files".
This must be a new way to make friends.
Peter Stewart
news:1125695683.557598.293600@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following below is the information I currently have in my files on
Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor de Fiennes, wife of Richard de
Vernon. The information is basically a very rough draft. If anyone
has additional information, I'd appreciate it if they would post it
here on the newsgroup. Thanks!
Goodness me - I once described some notes of my own on a particular subject
as "sketchy and incomplete", and Richardson repeatedly tried to twist this
into a confession of general inadequacy.
Now he is himself admittedly relying on "a very rough draft" in his "files".
This must be a new way to make friends.
Peter Stewart
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
Dear Peter ~
Thank you for your good post.
I believe the information I posted about Sir Giles de Fiennes is
accurate. If you have anything to add to it, please do so.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Thank you for your good post.
I believe the information I posted about Sir Giles de Fiennes is
accurate. If you have anything to add to it, please do so.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
The number of lions on Geoffrey's coat is a matter of longstanding
debate. An enamel survives which shows the shield in profile with the
charges like this:
-----
| X X|
\ X |
\ X|
\ |
This has been interpreted as being a sheiled with 4 lions (2+1+1), all
visible, or 6 (3+2+1), 7 (4+2+1) or 8 (4+2+2) lions with some obscured
by the curve of the shield. The most common conclusion among those who
have studied it is that it was probably 6, not only because of the
symetry, but also because Geoffrey's grandson William Longespee,
unquestionably bore that exact coat - azure, six lions or (3+2+1).
Note that the same problem applies to the first surviving English royal
arms (Richard I) - it shows a lion rampant, but again the shield is in
profile. Most interpret this as what is seen - a single lion (again,
there are examples within the family), but some have suggested it
represents only one half of a two lion shield, and I have seen
illustrations making it two lions facing each other. In this case, I
suspect a single charge is the most likely - that the convention when
showing a shield in profile was to include charges on the center line.
Probably not. Lions were the most common blazon, and if a coat had a
colored background, it was likely to have either gold or silver charges.
taf
In message of 2 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
But doesnt the rest of them mean "A blue background and three gold
lions"
Your interpretation of that blazon is spot on.
he shield of Geoffrey [Plantagenet] 1113-1151, Count of Anjou shows seven
gold lions on a blue background.
This is dangerously near the time of origin of arms (1125-1150) and I
would wonder how fixed his arms were.
In the Medieval Ordinary of Arms, Vol I, p. 314, they show a Geoffrey,
earl of Anjou, as bearing Azure, 6 lions or (with a 'field Gules?'
beside it). Their reference is Sandford's Genealogical History of the
Kings of England, pub Nicholson & Knaplock, London 1707 and compiled by
Hugh Stanford London who lived from 1884-1979 (just to show that there
is a degree of thoroughness in this volume).
The number of lions on Geoffrey's coat is a matter of longstanding
debate. An enamel survives which shows the shield in profile with the
charges like this:
-----
| X X|
\ X |
\ X|
\ |
This has been interpreted as being a sheiled with 4 lions (2+1+1), all
visible, or 6 (3+2+1), 7 (4+2+1) or 8 (4+2+2) lions with some obscured
by the curve of the shield. The most common conclusion among those who
have studied it is that it was probably 6, not only because of the
symetry, but also because Geoffrey's grandson William Longespee,
unquestionably bore that exact coat - azure, six lions or (3+2+1).
Note that the same problem applies to the first surviving English royal
arms (Richard I) - it shows a lion rampant, but again the shield is in
profile. Most interpret this as what is seen - a single lion (again,
there are examples within the family), but some have suggested it
represents only one half of a two lion shield, and I have seen
illustrations making it two lions facing each other. In this case, I
suspect a single charge is the most likely - that the convention when
showing a shield in profile was to include charges on the center line.
Is there a connection here ?
Probably not. Lions were the most common blazon, and if a coat had a
colored background, it was likely to have either gold or silver charges.
taf
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Sir Giles de Fiennes, father of Eleanor (de Fiennes) de
Good comments, Todd. Well said.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.com
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.com