Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Luke Potter
Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Whilst looking on the PRO website in light of the other thread on the
family of Richard de Vernon, the son and heir of Gilbert de Franceys, I
came across the following reference:
C49/1/14 - Judgement of the council against Christiana des Marrais
claiming custody of the heir of Gilbert de Franceis. [8 Ed 1]
Can anyone shed any light on the identity of this Christiana?
Thanks,
Luke
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
family of Richard de Vernon, the son and heir of Gilbert de Franceys, I
came across the following reference:
C49/1/14 - Judgement of the council against Christiana des Marrais
claiming custody of the heir of Gilbert de Franceis. [8 Ed 1]
Can anyone shed any light on the identity of this Christiana?
Thanks,
Luke
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Also from PROCAT (NB in the reference cited above Christiana's surname
is spelled "Marreis" rather than "Marrais"):
SC 8/60/2975 Petitioners: Executors of Christiana du Mareis
Addressees: King and council Places mentioned: Overstone,
Northamptonshire; York Other people mentioned: Christiana de Mareis
Nature of request: The executors request that an outstanding debt owing
to them be paid or some suitable allowance for the manor of Overstone
which the king and his council granted them by his letters patent at
York in his tenth year whereof the treasurer and chamberlains have
frequent writs and liveries. [c. 1316]
SC 8/63/3120 Petitioners: Executors of Christiana du Mareis.
Addressees: King and council Places mentioned: Langley,
[Buckinghamshire]; Wyrardisbury (Wraysbury), [Buckinghamshire];
Lincoln, [Lincolnshire]. Other people mentioned: Christiana du Mareis.
Nature of request: The executors request payment of a sum for the
movables found in the manors of Langley and Wyrardisbury taken to the
use of the king since the king and council ordained in full parliament
at Lincoln by a writ sicut pluries that they make payment. [c. 1316]
SC 8/63/3121 Places mentioned: Langley, [Buckinghamshire];
Wyrardisbury (Wraysbury); [Buckinghamshire]; Lincoln, [Lincolnshire].
Other people mentioned: Edward II, King of England; Christiana de
Marisciis (Mareis); Walter de Norwyco (Norwich), Lieutenant treasurer;
John de Manwardyn. 1316
is spelled "Marreis" rather than "Marrais"):
SC 8/60/2975 Petitioners: Executors of Christiana du Mareis
Addressees: King and council Places mentioned: Overstone,
Northamptonshire; York Other people mentioned: Christiana de Mareis
Nature of request: The executors request that an outstanding debt owing
to them be paid or some suitable allowance for the manor of Overstone
which the king and his council granted them by his letters patent at
York in his tenth year whereof the treasurer and chamberlains have
frequent writs and liveries. [c. 1316]
SC 8/63/3120 Petitioners: Executors of Christiana du Mareis.
Addressees: King and council Places mentioned: Langley,
[Buckinghamshire]; Wyrardisbury (Wraysbury), [Buckinghamshire];
Lincoln, [Lincolnshire]. Other people mentioned: Christiana du Mareis.
Nature of request: The executors request payment of a sum for the
movables found in the manors of Langley and Wyrardisbury taken to the
use of the king since the king and council ordained in full parliament
at Lincoln by a writ sicut pluries that they make payment. [c. 1316]
SC 8/63/3121 Places mentioned: Langley, [Buckinghamshire];
Wyrardisbury (Wraysbury); [Buckinghamshire]; Lincoln, [Lincolnshire].
Other people mentioned: Edward II, King of England; Christiana de
Marisciis (Mareis); Walter de Norwyco (Norwich), Lieutenant treasurer;
John de Manwardyn. 1316
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
See also:
C 143/6/28 Christiana de Mariscis to alienate the manor of `Curton in
Kenelean' and advowson of the church, with the land of `Losmauth.' (An
extent is attached of the lands of the grantor naming Morather,
Kylgelan, Conery, Kynheth, Ratheloch, Molendreyn, Balyhene,and the
advowson of the church of Kynheth. 11 EDWARD I.
C 143/32/4 Ralph son of William le Keu to have land in Langley by
Windsor, to hold of Christiana de Marisco during her life and
thereafter of the king by fee farm. Bucks. 28 EDWARD I.
C 143/35/15 Christiana de Marisco to grant a messuage and land in
Wyrardesbury and a weir in the Thames to the prioress and nuns of
Ankerwyke. Bucks. 29 EDWARD I.
C 143/74/19 William de Langeleye, clerk, to have a grant of a messuage
and land in Langley Marish, late surrendered to Christiana de Marisco
by Robert de Scalariis, the king's bondman, the said Christiana giving
consent, as she holds the manor for three years after the death of the
late king. 2 EDWARD II.
MAR
C 143/6/28 Christiana de Mariscis to alienate the manor of `Curton in
Kenelean' and advowson of the church, with the land of `Losmauth.' (An
extent is attached of the lands of the grantor naming Morather,
Kylgelan, Conery, Kynheth, Ratheloch, Molendreyn, Balyhene,and the
advowson of the church of Kynheth. 11 EDWARD I.
C 143/32/4 Ralph son of William le Keu to have land in Langley by
Windsor, to hold of Christiana de Marisco during her life and
thereafter of the king by fee farm. Bucks. 28 EDWARD I.
C 143/35/15 Christiana de Marisco to grant a messuage and land in
Wyrardesbury and a weir in the Thames to the prioress and nuns of
Ankerwyke. Bucks. 29 EDWARD I.
C 143/74/19 William de Langeleye, clerk, to have a grant of a messuage
and land in Langley Marish, late surrendered to Christiana de Marisco
by Robert de Scalariis, the king's bondman, the said Christiana giving
consent, as she holds the manor for three years after the death of the
late king. 2 EDWARD II.
MAR
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
And from A2A:
(East Sussex Record Office):
BUCKINGHAMSHIRE
FILE - Grant - ref. SAS/PN/763 - date: 13th cent
[from Scope and Content] By RICHARD son of Alexander Abbe des
langhelee, to Lady Christiana de Mariscis of the whole homage, rent and
service which Edmund le Oyselur of Horton was accustomed to render
yearly for a messuage and a yard of land which he held of the grantor
in the vill of Horton, namely 14 shillings at two terms
I hope these tiny jigsaw fragments might help.
Michael
(East Sussex Record Office):
BUCKINGHAMSHIRE
FILE - Grant - ref. SAS/PN/763 - date: 13th cent
[from Scope and Content] By RICHARD son of Alexander Abbe des
langhelee, to Lady Christiana de Mariscis of the whole homage, rent and
service which Edmund le Oyselur of Horton was accustomed to render
yearly for a messuage and a yard of land which he held of the grantor
in the vill of Horton, namely 14 shillings at two terms
I hope these tiny jigsaw fragments might help.
Michael
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Dear Luke ~
Without knowing any further particulars, I can only venture a guess. I
suspect "Christiana des Marrais" is the Irish heiress who is better
known as Christiana de Marisco. Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh. I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Christian de Marsh (or if you please Christiana de Marisco) was the
daughter and heiress of Robert de Marsh, which Robert in turn was the
son and heir of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland under King
John. On her mother's side, Christiana was granddaughter and heiress
to Walter de Ridelisford.
You can find additional information on Christian de Marsh on the
following website:
http://www.ucd.ie/pages/97/kenny.html
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Without knowing any further particulars, I can only venture a guess. I
suspect "Christiana des Marrais" is the Irish heiress who is better
known as Christiana de Marisco. Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh. I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Christian de Marsh (or if you please Christiana de Marisco) was the
daughter and heiress of Robert de Marsh, which Robert in turn was the
son and heir of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland under King
John. On her mother's side, Christiana was granddaughter and heiress
to Walter de Ridelisford.
You can find additional information on Christian de Marsh on the
following website:
http://www.ucd.ie/pages/97/kenny.html
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Luke Potter
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Thanks everyone for these references. I can't quite see how she what her
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
Luke
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
Luke
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Is this the family of Gilbert le Fraunceys of Cumberland? Thanks.
Pat
----------
Pat
----------
From: "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Date: Fri, Sep 2, 2005, 5:29 AM
Dear Luke ~
Without knowing any further particulars, I can only venture a guess. I
suspect "Christiana des Marrais" is the Irish heiress who is better
known as Christiana de Marisco. Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh. I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Christian de Marsh (or if you please Christiana de Marisco) was the
daughter and heiress of Robert de Marsh, which Robert in turn was the
son and heir of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland under King
John. On her mother's side, Christiana was granddaughter and heiress
to Walter de Ridelisford.
You can find additional information on Christian de Marsh on the
following website:
http://www.ucd.ie/pages/97/kenny.html
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Great post, Luke. You have an enquiring mind.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry,net
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry,net
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
In a message dated 9/2/2005 2:34:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
What is "archaic vernacular" ?
Marais is French for swamp, marsh, bog, wetland, (or what have you).
I would think Marrais is simply a bad or old spelling of the French.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh. I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
What is "archaic vernacular" ?
Marais is French for swamp, marsh, bog, wetland, (or what have you).
I would think Marrais is simply a bad or old spelling of the French.
Will Johnson
-
CED
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
DR has used the term "vernacular."
I would have thought that, after his last experience, he had learned.
Does he know the meaning of that term. In what language is "Marrais"
used to make it the vernacular?
Where was it used to classify it as vernacular?
If it was in writing, how can it be vernacular?
What was the dominant language in the geographical area in which it was
used?
Is this another case of DR's using a word without knowing its meaning?
CED
Dear Luke ~
Without knowing any further particulars, I can only venture a guess. I
suspect "Christiana des Marrais" is the Irish heiress who is better
known as Christiana de Marisco. Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh.
To the Newsgroup:
DR has used the term "vernacular."
I would have thought that, after his last experience, he had learned.
Does he know the meaning of that term. In what language is "Marrais"
used to make it the vernacular?
Where was it used to classify it as vernacular?
If it was in writing, how can it be vernacular?
What was the dominant language in the geographical area in which it was
used?
Is this another case of DR's using a word without knowing its meaning?
CED
I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Christian de Marsh (or if you please Christiana de Marisco) was the
daughter and heiress of Robert de Marsh, which Robert in turn was the
son and heir of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland under King
John. On her mother's side, Christiana was granddaughter and heiress
to Walter de Ridelisford.
You can find additional information on Christian de Marsh on the
following website:
http://www.ucd.ie/pages/97/kenny.html
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
CED
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
DR has used the term "vernacular."
I would have thought that, after his last experience, he had learned.
Does he know the meaning of that term. In what language is "Marrais"
used to make it the vernacular?
Where was it used to classify it as vernacular?
If it was in writing, how can it be vernacular?
What was the dominant language in the geographical area in which it was
used?
Is this another case of DR's using a word without knowing its meaning?
CED
Dear Luke ~
Without knowing any further particulars, I can only venture a guess. I
suspect "Christiana des Marrais" is the Irish heiress who is better
known as Christiana de Marisco. Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh.
To the Newsgroup:
DR has used the term "vernacular."
I would have thought that, after his last experience, he had learned.
Does he know the meaning of that term. In what language is "Marrais"
used to make it the vernacular?
Where was it used to classify it as vernacular?
If it was in writing, how can it be vernacular?
What was the dominant language in the geographical area in which it was
used?
Is this another case of DR's using a word without knowing its meaning?
CED
I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Christian de Marsh (or if you please Christiana de Marisco) was the
daughter and heiress of Robert de Marsh, which Robert in turn was the
son and heir of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland under King
John. On her mother's side, Christiana was granddaughter and heiress
to Walter de Ridelisford.
You can find additional information on Christian de Marsh on the
following website:
http://www.ucd.ie/pages/97/kenny.html
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Luke Potter wrote:
I don't think this is viable. It is probably some other French Richard.
taf
Thanks everyone for these references. I can't quite see how she what her
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
I don't think this is viable. It is probably some other French Richard.
taf
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Dear Todd ~
I think Luke has raised a valid question. We shouldn't remove a
possible piece of evidence off the table without looking at it
carefully.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
I think Luke has raised a valid question. We shouldn't remove a
possible piece of evidence off the table without looking at it
carefully.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Luke Potter wrote:
Thanks everyone for these references. I can't quite see how she what her
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
I don't think this is viable. It is probably some other French Richard.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
In a message dated 9/2/05 2:15:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lwrpotter@gmail.com writes:
<<
C49/1/14 - Judgement of the council against Christiana des Marrais
claiming custody of the heir of Gilbert de Franceis. [8 Ed 1] >>
Would I be correct in interpreting this to mean that his mother Hawise of
Vernon was also dead by this time ? (1280/1)
Thanks
Will Johnson
lwrpotter@gmail.com writes:
<<
C49/1/14 - Judgement of the council against Christiana des Marrais
claiming custody of the heir of Gilbert de Franceis. [8 Ed 1] >>
Would I be correct in interpreting this to mean that his mother Hawise of
Vernon was also dead by this time ? (1280/1)
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Who suggested otherwise?
We shouldn't remove a
Then why don't you look at it carefully, rather than just professing an
interest in "We" doing so. I already did look at it carefully, weighing
the probability of a 10-year-old with no known family connection to the
Ferrers serving as the chamberlain of the childbed suite and then later
being let out of prison just to testify as to someone's age, vs. the
possibility that there just might have been more than one person in all
of England named Richard French, and reached my conclusion. Now it is
your turn (or was your post just an attempt at making friends - do you
find hinting that others are assuming things and not giving their
responses due consideration to be an effective way of doing this, I
wonder?).
taf
Dear Todd ~
I think Luke has raised a valid question.
Who suggested otherwise?
We shouldn't remove a
possible piece of evidence off the table without looking at it
carefully.
Then why don't you look at it carefully, rather than just professing an
interest in "We" doing so. I already did look at it carefully, weighing
the probability of a 10-year-old with no known family connection to the
Ferrers serving as the chamberlain of the childbed suite and then later
being let out of prison just to testify as to someone's age, vs. the
possibility that there just might have been more than one person in all
of England named Richard French, and reached my conclusion. Now it is
your turn (or was your post just an attempt at making friends - do you
find hinting that others are assuming things and not giving their
responses due consideration to be an effective way of doing this, I
wonder?).
taf
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Luke Potter wrote:
Thanks everyone for these references. I can't quite see how she what her
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
I don't think this is viable. It is probably some other French Richard.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Dear Douglas,
Another possible modern form would be Marris- it is a genuine English
surname, I descend from a 4Xgreat-grandmother of that name. The family
even supplied an over-ambitious pedigree to BLG 1952, claiming descent
from the Mariscos (Marisci?), which was rightly demolished by
genealogists; but there can be no objection to the equivalence of the
names. The problem with going straight to Marsh would be the precedent
then set- Robert de Bosco becomes Robert Wood, rather than the more
familiar Robert de Boys; and, as Todd implied elsewhere in the thread,
Fraunceys would be French rather than Francis; etc.
Matthew
Marisco is the Latin form of Marsh,
while Marrais is an archaic vernacular form of Marsh. I prefer to use
the modern form, Marsh.
Dear Douglas,
Another possible modern form would be Marris- it is a genuine English
surname, I descend from a 4Xgreat-grandmother of that name. The family
even supplied an over-ambitious pedigree to BLG 1952, claiming descent
from the Mariscos (Marisci?), which was rightly demolished by
genealogists; but there can be no objection to the equivalence of the
names. The problem with going straight to Marsh would be the precedent
then set- Robert de Bosco becomes Robert Wood, rather than the more
familiar Robert de Boys; and, as Todd implied elsewhere in the thread,
Fraunceys would be French rather than Francis; etc.
Matthew
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Dear Pat,
nobody seems to have answered you, but in case you still wonder, the
answer is yes- he's the one we talked about re: the Viponts.
Matthew
Is this the family of Gilbert le Fraunceys of Cumberland? Thanks.
Pat
Dear Pat,
nobody seems to have answered you, but in case you still wonder, the
answer is yes- he's the one we talked about re: the Viponts.
Matthew
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
eg, there was the Fraunceys (and variants) family of Allestree and
Foremark in Derbyshire; don't know their early pedigree though, whether
they had any Richards.
Luke Potter wrote:
Thanks everyone for these references. I can't quite see how she what her
claim to the custody of the young Richard would have been based on. My
understanding is that custody was normally allowed to a lord (or lady)
of land held by the deceased father of the underage heir. Am I correct?
Perhaps there was some land held of her by the Franceys family that we
are not aware of.
In the event, according to Ragg's article in CWAS Vol.11, it appears
that the young Richard was brought up by Michael de Harcla. There is
however an interesting reference in a proof of age of William son of
William de Ferrars taken on 8th March 1292/3. In this it was stated that
William was born at Yoxhale, Staffordshire, on 31st January 1271/2. A
Richard Franceys agreed stating that 'at the time of the said William's
birth he was chamberlain of Anne his mother, and when she was in labour
Sir William de Ferariis her husband came to the door of the said lady's
chamber and the said Richard opened it that his lord might come in to
speak with her.' [CIPM, Vol.3, p.93/4]. Could this Richard Fraunceys be
Richard son of Gilbert? Until the confiscation of the lands of Robert
Ferrars in 1266, the Vernons had held their manors of Harlaston, Haddon,
Baslow and Appelby of the Ferrars family. Richard's uncle, Richard de
Vernon, had also been steward to the Ferrars family in the mid 1240s,
and William de Vernon had held the position before that in the 1230s.
[P.Golob, 'The Ferrars Earls of Derby, A Study of the Honour of Tutbury,
1066-1279,' University of Cambridge PhD thesis, 1985, pp.524; C.Foster
(ed), _Registrum Antiquissum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln_,
(Lincoln Record Soc, 1935) Vol.3, p.129]. Perhaps a connection between
the families continued to survive after the confiscations of 1266.
Two questions might resolve this:
1/. Was Richard son of Gilbert in prison by this date, in which case he
could not have been at this inquistion.
2/. We know that Richard son of Gilbert was born 19 May 1263, therefore
he would have been just under 10 years of age at the time of the birth
of William Ferrars. Could a child have been in the role of chamberlain?
What exactly did the role involve? If opening doors was the general gist
of the job then a ten year old could probably have managed!
I don't think this is viable. It is probably some other French Richard.
taf
eg, there was the Fraunceys (and variants) family of Allestree and
Foremark in Derbyshire; don't know their early pedigree though, whether
they had any Richards.
-
Gjest
Re: Gilbert de Franceys/Christiana des Marrais
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Dear Will, (or evil twin)
You're correct- Hawise is deduced to have predeceased Gilbert, ie to
have died by 1277/8.
Matthew
In a message dated 9/2/05 2:15:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lwrpotter@gmail.com writes:
C49/1/14 - Judgement of the council against Christiana des Marrais
claiming custody of the heir of Gilbert de Franceis. [8 Ed 1]
Would I be correct in interpreting this to mean that his mother Hawise of
Vernon was also dead by this time ? (1280/1)
Thanks
Will Johnson
Dear Will, (or evil twin)
You're correct- Hawise is deduced to have predeceased Gilbert, ie to
have died by 1277/8.
Matthew