Index to Visitations

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 01:48:04

Perhaps this is naive, but as a librarian, I must ask. Is there (I'm
sure there's not) a comprehensive index to families in published
visitations? If not, why has no one done this?

I recently discovered a 1618 marriage for ancestor in Hampshire that
names his wife as Mary Gardiner, daughter of Christopher Gardiner.
There are no Gardiners in the Hampshires Visitations (both old and
new). So where next? She married Thomas Dowse, a gentleman, so
chances are her father was a gentleman also.

It would be helpful to see an index to see if any other Gardiner
families are mentioned in any other visitation.

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 02:25:44

Sorry to disagree with you, but I did as you instructed and there are
no visitations there. There are many databases with information
(marriage licenses, probates, etc.) but nothing labelled visitation.

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 02:56:01

In a message dated 9/1/05 5:49:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< Perhaps this is naive, but as a librarian, I must ask. Is there (I'm
sure there's not) a comprehensive index to families in published
visitations? If not, why has no one done this? >>

Yes. At ancestry, as part of the British subscription package (which is
around $40 to $60 I think) they have indexed several visitations. I am not sure
if they have done them all yet, but I'm sure they are working on it.

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 02:59:01

In a message dated 9/1/05 5:49:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< Mary Gardiner, daughter of Christopher Gardiner.
There are no Gardiners in the Hampshires Visitations (both old and
new). So where next? She married Thomas Dowse, a gentleman, so
chances are her father was a gentleman also. >>

Go to http://www.ancestry.com
Type in Christopher Gardiner, and select as country "ENGLAND"
Even if you do *NOT* have a subscription to the British collection, it will
still show you that the person appears in this or that reference. But no
details.

Of course then it will helpfully ask you to *buy* that subscription :)

I can truly say, my money was well spent when I bought it myself.
On the other hand, I can't necessarily say the OneWorldTree subscription was
as well-spent. Mostly because I abhor databases that give NO sources and NO
notes.

Will Johnson

R. Battle

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av R. Battle » 02 sep 2005 03:11:22

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
"Ancestry.com. England and Wales Visitations, Volume I-XIV. [database online]
Provo, Utah: Ancestry.com, 2002. Original data: ed. Joseph Jackson Howard and
Frederick Arthur Crisp. Visitation of England and Wales, Volume I-XIV.
Privately printed, 1893-1906."
snip


Readers should be aware that this is *not* one of the visitations that the
original poster probably had in mind. The vast majority of the data
presented in this one is in the period between about 1750 and the late
1800s; it is not a collection of the earlier county visitations.

I believe that the Harleian Society put out an index of sorts to its
published visitations, but I am not certain.

-Robert Battle

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 03:41:02

In a message dated 9/1/05 6:34:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< Sorry to disagree with you, but I did as you instructed and there are
no visitations there. There are many databases with information
(marriage licenses, probates, etc.) but nothing labelled visitation. >>

I'm not sure who you are referring to. I read this via list and so if you
don't quote, I can't tell who you are responding to. However, presuming it was
I.

Yes ancestry has some Visitations. I have been viewing them at least for the
past two months that I figured out that they were there. I think I even
have a few cited in my database somewhere. And my only source of these is
through ancestry. I don't particularly like visitations because they give very long
lineages in some cases with no dates, places or sources. So I don't find
them terribly useful for pinning down what I consider *facts*.

However if you try a name that would obviously be there and with no
possibility of mispelling then you should see a Visitation pop up. So try a name like
George Howard or Jane Beaumont and see what you get.

I don't think they are so good at indexing "de Vere" or other names with
spaces in them. Sometimes I have to try several different ways to spell a name
before I get a hit.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av norenxaq » 02 sep 2005 03:41:02


Go to http://www.ancestry.com
Type in Christopher Gardiner, and select as country "ENGLAND"
Even if you do *NOT* have a subscription to the British collection, it will
still show you that the person appears in this or that reference. But no
details.

Of course then it will helpfully ask you to *buy* that subscription :)

I can truly say, my money was well spent when I bought it myself.
On the other hand, I can't necessarily say the OneWorldTree subscription was
as well-spent. Mostly because I abhor databases that give NO sources and NO
notes.

Will Johnson

owt is based on a compilation of databases submitted to ancestry and is as good

or bad as the individual submissions, some of which are sourced, which can be
found. exactly how, I do not recall presently

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 03:45:02

In a message dated 9/1/05 6:40:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

<< owt is based on a compilation of databases submitted to ancestry and is as
good
or bad as the individual submissions, some of which are sourced, which can be
found. exactly how, I do not recall presently >>

I never figured out how to look at the underlying database that you say make
up OneWorldTree. So if anyone knows, please share that.

Will

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 03:50:02

In a message dated 9/1/05 6:40:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< Yes ancestry has some Visitations. I have been viewing them at least for
the
past two months that I figured out that they were there. >>

For example I went to http://www.ancestry.com
I entered George Howard, and England in the Country field, then click search
Of course I get a ton of hits.

I scroll down to the section entitled "Family & Local Histories"
and I click on "Show all 185 hits"

On the next page, amongst other resources I get this one
"England and Wales Visitation, Volume I, III-XIV "
This is the name Ancestry gives it, but probing underneath that name I get
this better citation

"Ancestry.com. England and Wales Visitations, Volume I-XIV. [database online]
Provo, Utah: Ancestry.com, 2002. Original data: ed. Joseph Jackson Howard and
Frederick Arthur Crisp. Visitation of England and Wales, Volume I-XIV.
Privately printed, 1893-1906."

Will Johnson

pj.evans

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av pj.evans » 02 sep 2005 03:57:38

OWT is based at least in part on Worldconnect - I know this because at
least one person in it has information only found in my Worldconnect
file (uniquely named individual; only one record in Worldconnect). Yes,
it's not useful without sources or notes. I generally include sources;
notes depend on how long I want to spend online while uploading.

P J Evans

norenxaq wrote:

Go to http://www.ancestry.com
Type in Christopher Gardiner, and select as country "ENGLAND"
Even if you do *NOT* have a subscription to the British collection, it will
still show you that the person appears in this or that reference. But no
details.

Of course then it will helpfully ask you to *buy* that subscription :)

I can truly say, my money was well spent when I bought it myself.
On the other hand, I can't necessarily say the OneWorldTree subscription was
as well-spent. Mostly because I abhor databases that give NO sources and NO
notes.

Will Johnson

owt is based on a compilation of databases submitted to ancestry and is as good

or bad as the individual submissions, some of which are sourced, which can be
found. exactly how, I do not recall presently

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 05:15:03

In a message dated 9/1/05 7:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
battle@u.washington.edu writes:

<< Readers should be aware that this is *not* one of the visitations that the
original poster probably had in mind. The vast majority of the data
presented in this one is in the period between about 1750 and the late
1800s; it is not a collection of the earlier county visitations. >>

And this was just an example.
There are earlier visitations as well.
I distinctly remember seeing a reference to a Visitation of ... something
like 1607 ?
Another was said something like 1560? or 1567? or something like that.
I just can't recall off-hand who I was looking up at the time.
Whoever it was, I think they were in Chalmer's or DNB so I just used that
data instead of the visitation.

Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 02 sep 2005 09:26:10

R. Battle wrote :
"Ancestry.com. England and Wales Visitations, Volume I-XIV. [database
online]
Provo, Utah: Ancestry.com, 2002. Original data: ed. Joseph Jackson
Howard and
Frederick Arthur Crisp. Visitation of England and Wales, Volume I-XIV.
Privately printed, 1893-1906."
snip

Readers should be aware that this is *not* one of the visitations that the
original poster probably had in mind. The vast majority of the data
presented in this one is in the period between about 1750 and the late
1800s; it is not a collection of the earlier county visitations.

I believe that the Harleian Society put out an index of sorts to its
published visitations, but I am not certain.

I have tried several times to get ancestry.co.uk to correct that (and other
numerous) errors in the descriptions of the material in their database. When
they have responded at all, it has been to say my email has been forwarded
to somebody else, and then nothing more has been done.

On indexes to the heralds' visitations, there is an index to surnames
published in the 19th century:

R. Sims, An Index to Pedigrees and Arms contained in the Heralds'
Visitations and other Genealogical Manuscripts in the British Museum
(London, 1849)

and also a more recent work:

C.R. Humphery-Smith, Armigerous ancestors: a catalogue of sources for the
study of the visitations of the heralds in the 16th and 17th centuries with
referenced lists of names (Canterbury, 1997)

There is also an online search facility provided by "Achievements", the
research company associated with Humphery-Smith's Institute of Heraldic and
Genealogical Studies:

http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/arm/index.php

Chris Phillips

nige

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av nige » 02 sep 2005 13:25:07

It may be worth trying the following link to an index of armigerous
families.


http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/arm/index.php

Nigel Prince

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 13:34:29

Thank you for finally answering my question.

John Brandon

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 sep 2005 15:34:12

mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Perhaps this is naive, but as a librarian, I must ask. Is there (I'm
sure there's not) a comprehensive index to families in published
visitations? If not, why has no one done this?

I recently discovered a 1618 marriage for ancestor in Hampshire that
names his wife as Mary Gardiner, daughter of Christopher Gardiner.
There are no Gardiners in the Hampshires Visitations (both old and
new). So where next? She married Thomas Dowse, a gentleman, so
chances are her father was a gentleman also.

It would be helpful to see an index to see if any other Gardiner
families are mentioned in any other visitation.

Would this be the Mary Gardener, daughter of Christofer, baptized 3
August 1596 at St. Martin's, Salisbury (as per extracted IGI)?

There was a scandalous person by the name of Christopher Gardiner in
early New England (though presumably not identical with the father of
Mrs Mary Dowse). I remember thinking at one point that he might be the
same person mentioned in Leslie Hotson's book _Shakespeare Versus
Shallow_, a biography of Justice William Gardiner of Bermondsey and
Southwark, possibly (Hotson speculates) the inspiration for one of
Shakepeare's characters. See

http://www.bookmaven.net/si/4400.html

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 02 sep 2005 16:03:00

In message of 2 Sep, "nige" <princes_england@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

It may be worth trying the following link to an index of armigerous
families.

http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/arm/index.php

Very good ... but 15 ukp seems a bit steep for a report.

I tried it out by entering the name Smith (ie difficult) and
then selected "Smith of Holt from Co.Essex, Alias VEVILL; from the
Leicestershire [visitation???]" (more difficult). I then looked this
up in my copy of the Leics 1619 visitation but could find no mention of
this family at all. There is no other Leics visitation book on the
Harleian Society's site: http://harleian.co.uk/ so I wonder where they
got the information on those Smiths from. (I could have missed them in
the 1619 book though.)

Anyhow I doubt that finding a (ascertainable) record in a visitation
volume and printing out (or scanning and e-mailing) the relevant deails
would take more than a few minutes so this could be a nice little
earner.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 17:02:32

Wow. Sounds good to me. Her husband was baptized on 18 February
1595/6, so I will start looking in and about Salisbury. I am aware of
the notorious Sir Christopher Gardiner of early New England. If
related at all, it is more likely that he was a brother of nephew of
Mary (Gardiner) Dowse.

Chris Phillips

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 02 sep 2005 17:09:45

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
I tried it out by entering the name Smith (ie difficult) and
then selected "Smith of Holt from Co.Essex, Alias VEVILL; from the
Leicestershire [visitation???]" (more difficult). I then looked this
up in my copy of the Leics 1619 visitation but could find no mention of
this family at all. There is no other Leics visitation book on the
Harleian Society's site: http://harleian.co.uk/ so I wonder where they
got the information on those Smiths from. (I could have missed them in
the 1619 book though.)

I'm not sure, but I think Humphery-Smith's "Armigerous Ancestors" (on which
this database is presumably based) probably covers unpublished visitation
pedigrees as well as published ones.

Anyhow I doubt that finding a (ascertainable) record in a visitation
volume and printing out (or scanning and e-mailing) the relevant deails
would take more than a few minutes so this could be a nice little
earner.

This is on the website of "Achievements", the research company of the IHGS
in Canterbury. I don't think any of their services come particularly
cheaply.

Chris Phillips

Gordon Banks

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 02 sep 2005 17:50:02

Last subscription renewal, I asked the guy what is the difference
between One World Tree and Ancestry Family Tree (free). He said they
went though (he had no idea how, obviously by data mining), and combined
all the multiple entries in Ancestry Family Tree to form only one entry
for each person in One World Tree. The theory was they would take sort
of an average of what their customers had submitted and eliminate the
outliers. Since some errors I've found are widely propagated, I didn't
think that would be a very justifiable way to come up with accurate
data, so declined to subscribe to One World Tree. I agree that their
English subscription is worth the money. The US one is too, if you
still need to access US Census data.

On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 20:57 -0400, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/1/05 5:49:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

Mary Gardiner, daughter of Christopher Gardiner.
There are no Gardiners in the Hampshires Visitations (both old and
new). So where next? She married Thomas Dowse, a gentleman, so
chances are her father was a gentleman also.

Go to http://www.ancestry.com
Type in Christopher Gardiner, and select as country "ENGLAND"
Even if you do *NOT* have a subscription to the British collection, it will
still show you that the person appears in this or that reference. But no
details.

Of course then it will helpfully ask you to *buy* that subscription :)

I can truly say, my money was well spent when I bought it myself.
On the other hand, I can't necessarily say the OneWorldTree subscription was
as well-spent. Mostly because I abhor databases that give NO sources and NO
notes.

Will Johnson

Gordon Banks

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 02 sep 2005 17:55:02

http://www.ancestry.com/trees/awt/main.htm

On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 21:44 -0400, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/1/05 6:40:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

owt is based on a compilation of databases submitted to ancestry and is as
good
or bad as the individual submissions, some of which are sourced, which can be
found. exactly how, I do not recall presently

I never figured out how to look at the underlying database that you say make
up OneWorldTree. So if anyone knows, please share that.

Will

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 18:05:02

In a message dated 9/2/2005 8:54:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:


http://www.ancestry.com/trees/awt/main.htm

I never figured out how to look at the underlying database that you say
make
up OneWorldTree. So if anyone knows, please share that.

Will

Yes and no. Not everything in the OneWorldTree comes from the Ancestral
World Tree.
Only a part of it. It's not one-to-many and its not many-to-one either. Not
everything in AWT is in OWT and not everything in OWT is in AWT. And yes I
have found examples which prove this.
Will

Gjest

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2005 18:08:02

In a message dated 9/2/2005 8:49:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:


He said they
went though (he had no idea how, obviously by data mining), and combined
all the multiple entries in Ancestry Family Tree to form only one entry
for each person in One World Tree.

I think they probably did yes. But I also think they did this in some kind
of static way. That is, a one-shot, and then it becomes outdated as AWT keeps
growing by massive GEDCOM submissions, while OWT has to have a seperate
submission system including both GEDCOM's and manual editing. So as they age they
will drift further and further apart.
In addition there are entries in OWT that do not exist in AWT and vice
versa. My real point was not to ask how to use AWT. But rather it would be nice
if they had merged in the notes and sources into OWT as well. Otherwise you
have to do the extra work to track down *why* someone feels that X is the
child of Y someplace else. Mostly I find that extra stuff a bit annoying to
pursue :)

Or maybe I'm just bitching.
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 02 sep 2005 19:39:03

In message of 2 Sep, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
wrote:

I'm not sure, but I think Humphery-Smith's "Armigerous Ancestors" (on
which this database is presumably based) probably covers unpublished
visitation pedigrees as well as published ones.

Then I'm jealous as there remain a few visitations that have not been
published at all, Shropshire of 1664 for one (and in which I have a high
interest).

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Brandon

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 sep 2005 20:02:28

mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Wow. Sounds good to me. Her husband was baptized on 18 February
1595/6, so I will start looking in and about Salisbury. I am aware of
the notorious Sir Christopher Gardiner of early New England. If
related at all, it is more likely that he was a brother of nephew of
Mary (Gardiner) Dowse.

I believe Sir Christopher Gardiner was treated in one of the
installments of the "Roll of Arms" (or whatever) that used to be
published regularly in the _NEHGR_. I remember comparing that account
with the information in Leslie Hotson's book (which had some details
about Christopher Gardiner, son [? or grandson] of Justice Gardiner),
and thinking that there were some interesting coincidences or
parallels. But it's been quite a while, so I don't remember many of
the details (but I think the same estate or place of residence was
named in both).

John Brandon

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 sep 2005 20:03:18

mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Wow. Sounds good to me. Her husband was baptized on 18 February
1595/6, so I will start looking in and about Salisbury. I am aware of
the notorious Sir Christopher Gardiner of early New England. If
related at all, it is more likely that he was a brother of nephew of
Mary (Gardiner) Dowse.

I believe Sir Christopher Gardiner was treated in one of the
installments of the "Roll of Arms" (or whatever) that used to be
published regularly in the _NEHGR_. I remember comparing that account
with the information in Leslie Hotson's book (which had some details
about Christopher Gardiner, son [? or grandson] of Justice Gardiner),
and thinking that there were some interesting coincidences or
parallels. But it's been quite a while, so I don't remember many of
the details (but I think the same estate or place of residence was
named in both).

Gordon Banks

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 02 sep 2005 21:24:01

I agree. I find such databases only good for hints usually. Few people
give any sources, so it is just repeating data they got from somewhere
else on the Internet usually, over and over again.

On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 12:07 -0400, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/2/2005 8:49:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:


He said they
went though (he had no idea how, obviously by data mining), and combined
all the multiple entries in Ancestry Family Tree to form only one entry
for each person in One World Tree.

I think they probably did yes. But I also think they did this in some kind
of static way. That is, a one-shot, and then it becomes outdated as AWT keeps
growing by massive GEDCOM submissions, while OWT has to have a seperate
submission system including both GEDCOM's and manual editing. So as they age they
will drift further and further apart.
In addition there are entries in OWT that do not exist in AWT and vice
versa. My real point was not to ask how to use AWT. But rather it would be nice
if they had merged in the notes and sources into OWT as well. Otherwise you
have to do the extra work to track down *why* someone feels that X is the
child of Y someplace else. Mostly I find that extra stuff a bit annoying to
pursue :)

Or maybe I'm just bitching.
Will

norenxaq

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av norenxaq » 03 sep 2005 01:58:01

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

I never figured out how to look at the underlying database that you say make
up OneWorldTree. So if anyone knows, please share that.

Will

here's how starting from ancestry's home page:

search for person of interest
select one world tree
select edit (this is on the lower left of a box containing the person's name
along with birth and death information)
this will open a new page, on the right will be the number of trees containing
that person
click on the number
the result displays the individual databases

Chris Phillips

Re: Index to Visitations

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 21 okt 2005 12:17:38

I wrote (on 2 September):
<<
I'm not sure, but I think Humphery-Smith's "Armigerous Ancestors" (on which
this database is presumably based) probably covers unpublished visitation
pedigrees as well as published ones.

I had a closer look at this yesterday, but had forgotten I was meant to be
checking this specific question.

Anyhow, a rather crucial point is that the main part of the book is an index
to surnames (almost but not quite alphabetical), which gives places and
counties, but no dates. The information appears to be precisely the same as
that given by the free online index here:
http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/arm/index.php

Of course, it would be much more useful if the index gave the year of the
visitation!

The next section gives a bibliography of visitations for each county.

Then there is a facsimile of R. Sims, An Index to Pedigrees and Arms
contained in the Heralds' Visitations and other Genealogical Manuscripts in
the British Museum (London, 1849), which is an index to manuscript copies of
the visitations.

Finally, Humphery-Smith prints a manuscript list of disclaimers by the
19th-century bibliophile Sir Thomas Phillipps. The surnames in this list are
indexed in the main part of the book.

Chris Phillips

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»