Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

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Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2005 20:41:01

Leo's great web site gives us that Richard, Lord Stafford and Isabel of
Vernon married in 1337. This Isabel was dau of Richard of Vernon, Knt of Haddon,
Derbyshire who was in turn son of Richard of Vernon and his wife Juliana dau of
William of Vescy [or Vesci], Lord of Alnwick who d bef 7 Oct 1253 in Gascony.

So far, I have no good dates on most of these things. However when I applied
vague ranges on the births and get back to Juliana's mother Agnes of Ferrers,
dau of William 5th Earl of Derby and his wife Margaret Countess of Derby.

This Agnes, I have born 1238/42 and I note a source
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, "Bluntzer", pg 98-100, Count d'Angerville;
World Nobility, London. 1962

If this is accurate so far then Juliana herself can only have been born
between 1251 and 1254. Allowing her mother to be at least 13 and her father to
have been alive to conceive her (he died bef 7 Oct 1253)

Comments are appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2005 22:01:00

Hi Will,

I'm afraid this Juliana de Vescy should really be jettisoned from
genealogies- she seems to first appear at the top (ie unreliable) end
of a visitation, and was given extra life by Burke's et al. for a few
centuries; but she can't have been the child of those parents, or her
descendants would have inherited the Vesci lands that instead passed to
the Aton family. The latest (and final paper) edition of Burke's
peerage (2003) has a much improved Vernon pedigree, and Juliana no
longer appears. Her place is (correctly) taken by Isabel, daughter of
Michael de Harcla (Hartcla, Harclay) (sheriff of Cumberland 1285-98,
dead by 1309, married Joan dau William Fitzjohn -ODNB), and sister of
Andrew, (briefly) Earl of Carlisle.
Hope this isn't a pedigree disaster-

Matthew

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Leo's great web site gives us that Richard, Lord Stafford and Isabel of
Vernon married in 1337. This Isabel was dau of Richard of Vernon, Knt of Haddon,
Derbyshire who was in turn son of Richard of Vernon and his wife Juliana dau of
William of Vescy [or Vesci], Lord of Alnwick who d bef 7 Oct 1253 in Gascony.

So far, I have no good dates on most of these things. However when I applied
vague ranges on the births and get back to Juliana's mother Agnes of Ferrers,
dau of William 5th Earl of Derby and his wife Margaret Countess of Derby.

This Agnes, I have born 1238/42 and I note a source
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, "Bluntzer", pg 98-100, Count d'Angerville;
World Nobility, London. 1962

If this is accurate so far then Juliana herself can only have been born
between 1251 and 1254. Allowing her mother to be at least 13 and her father to
have been alive to conceive her (he died bef 7 Oct 1253)

Comments are appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2005 23:11:02

In a message dated 8/29/05 2:03:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< I'm afraid this Juliana de Vescy should really be jettisoned from
genealogies- she seems to first appear at the top (ie unreliable) end
of a visitation, and was given extra life by Burke's et al. for a few
centuries; >>

Thank you for this update!
Will Johnson

Luke Potter

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Luke Potter » 30 aug 2005 10:52:01

Hi Will and Matthew,

I think we have jumped a generation here.

Isabel daughter of Michael de Harcla was wife of Richard de Vernon
senior who was also known as Richard le Franceys. Richard was dead by
1329 when Isabel sued William de Vernon for a third part of two parts
of two messuages and a moiety of Netherhaddon [_Staffordshire
Historical Collections_, Vol.9, p.9]. Isabel was still living by 1342
when there is an interesting entry in the Register of John Kirkby,
Bishop of Carlisle:

"It is good to give testimony in the business of the needy. At the
time of writing, the noble matron Isabel de Vernon was sane and in
perfect physical health, as could clearly be seen in her manor of
Mauld's Meaburn, where she lived. These letters are written in case
anyone might make an assertion to the contrary." [R.Storey (ed.), _The
Register of John Kirkby, Bishop of Carlisle, 1332-1352,_ (Canterbury
and York Society, 1993), p.41]

The eldest son of Richard and Isabel was another Richard. His first
wife was Eleanor de Frenes, but then by Feb 1312/3 he was re-married
to Matilda de Camville daughter of William Camville. I can identify
three children, William, Isabel and Matilda, before Richard died in
Feb 1322/3.

Upon the subsequent death of his grandfather, William inherited his
grandfather's estates (or at least those which were not held in dower
by his mother and grandmother). His wife was a Joan whose surname I
have not yet identified. [_Staffordshire Historical Collections_,
Vol.12, p.58]

His sister Isabel married Richard de Stafford as stated before in this
thread, but she was therefore the daughter of Richard de Vernon and
Matilda de Camville, and grandaughter of Richard de Vernon and Isabel
de Harcla. Again no connection to the Vescy family.

Their other sister, Matilda, received a grant from her mother in 12
Edward III (1338/9) of £20 yearly from the rents of her tenement in
Haunton, Staffordshire [BL, Harl MS. 2074, f.34]. I suspect that this
Matilda may then have married William son of Hugh de Venables of
Cheshire.

BL Harl MS 2077, f.37 gives summaries of the following two charters:

1/ Covenant of marriage that William son of Sir Hugh Venables should
marry Maude the daughter of Maude Vernon and of Richard Vernon. Dated
16 Edward III

2/ Maud who was wife of Richard de Vernon grants to Maude her daughter
wife of William de Venables and her heirs an annual rent of £20 silver
from the lands and tenements which were of John de Cave in Hamtton.
Dated 23 Edward III.

I suspect that Hamtton was actually a misreading by the original
copier of Haunton. Haunton was part of the Camville land held by
Matilda de Vernon (nee Camville) in the 1327 Lay Subsidy, and so looks
like this Vernon/Venables marriage was actually of the Haddon Vernons
rather than the Shipbrook Vernons.

Luke

Gjest

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2005 11:31:49

Hi Luke,

that's all fascinating about Maud/Matilda, I had no inkling even of her
existence. While on the subject of Vernon daughters, do you know
anything about the Cecilia Vernon who married Sir John Cockayne
(d.1372)? She also married an Ireton. I've seen her placed as a
daughter of William Vernon of Haddon (son of Richard and Maud Camvill)
but don't know if that is based on any more than guesswork- I don't
even know the basis for her identification as a Vernon in the first
place, but have seen it stated in a reputable source.

I don't think we did miss a generation though- Will's OP did say that
Isabel was daughter of Richard who was in turn son of Richard and
Juliana (ie, Isabel de Harcla); it's just that neither of us mentioned
the younger Richard's wives!

Matthew

Luke Potter wrote:
Hi Will and Matthew,

I think we have jumped a generation here.

Isabel daughter of Michael de Harcla was wife of Richard de Vernon
senior who was also known as Richard le Franceys. Richard was dead by
1329 when Isabel sued William de Vernon for a third part of two parts
of two messuages and a moiety of Netherhaddon [_Staffordshire
Historical Collections_, Vol.9, p.9]. Isabel was still living by 1342
when there is an interesting entry in the Register of John Kirkby,
Bishop of Carlisle:

"It is good to give testimony in the business of the needy. At the
time of writing, the noble matron Isabel de Vernon was sane and in
perfect physical health, as could clearly be seen in her manor of
Mauld's Meaburn, where she lived. These letters are written in case
anyone might make an assertion to the contrary." [R.Storey (ed.), _The
Register of John Kirkby, Bishop of Carlisle, 1332-1352,_ (Canterbury
and York Society, 1993), p.41]

The eldest son of Richard and Isabel was another Richard. His first
wife was Eleanor de Frenes, but then by Feb 1312/3 he was re-married
to Matilda de Camville daughter of William Camville. I can identify
three children, William, Isabel and Matilda, before Richard died in
Feb 1322/3.

Upon the subsequent death of his grandfather, William inherited his
grandfather's estates (or at least those which were not held in dower
by his mother and grandmother). His wife was a Joan whose surname I
have not yet identified. [_Staffordshire Historical Collections_,
Vol.12, p.58]

His sister Isabel married Richard de Stafford as stated before in this
thread, but she was therefore the daughter of Richard de Vernon and
Matilda de Camville, and grandaughter of Richard de Vernon and Isabel
de Harcla. Again no connection to the Vescy family.

Their other sister, Matilda, received a grant from her mother in 12
Edward III (1338/9) of £20 yearly from the rents of her tenement in
Haunton, Staffordshire [BL, Harl MS. 2074, f.34]. I suspect that this
Matilda may then have married William son of Hugh de Venables of
Cheshire.

BL Harl MS 2077, f.37 gives summaries of the following two charters:

1/ Covenant of marriage that William son of Sir Hugh Venables should
marry Maude the daughter of Maude Vernon and of Richard Vernon. Dated
16 Edward III

2/ Maud who was wife of Richard de Vernon grants to Maude her daughter
wife of William de Venables and her heirs an annual rent of £20 silver
from the lands and tenements which were of John de Cave in Hamtton.
Dated 23 Edward III.

I suspect that Hamtton was actually a misreading by the original
copier of Haunton. Haunton was part of the Camville land held by
Matilda de Vernon (nee Camville) in the 1327 Lay Subsidy, and so looks
like this Vernon/Venables marriage was actually of the Haddon Vernons
rather than the Shipbrook Vernons.

Luke

Luke Potter

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Luke Potter » 30 aug 2005 18:33:34

Matthew,

I too have seen stated a marriage of John Cockayne and Cecilia de
Vernon, but not yet come across any contemporary evidence. The
chronology for a daughter of William de Vernon does seem to fit though.

Luke

"Anonymous User" wrote:
Hi Luke,

that's all fascinating about Maud/Matilda, I had no inkling even of her
existence. While on the subject of Vernon daughters, do you know
anything about the Cecilia Vernon who married Sir John Cockayne
(d.1372)? She also married an Ireton. I've seen her placed as a
daughter of William Vernon of Haddon (son of Richard and Maud Camvill)
but don't know if that is based on any more than guesswork- I don't
even know the basis for her identification as a Vernon in the first
place, but have seen it stated in a reputable source.

I don't think we did miss a generation though- Will's OP did say that
Isabel was daughter of Richard who was in turn son of Richard and
Juliana (ie, Isabel de Harcla); it's just that neither of us mentioned
the younger Richard's wives!

Matthew

Luke Potter wrote:
Hi Will and Matthew,

I think we have jumped a generation here.

Isabel daughter of Michael de Harcla was wife of Richard de Vernon
senior who was also known as Richard le Franceys. Richard was dead by
1329 when Isabel sued William de Vernon for a third part of two parts
of two messuages and a moiety of Netherhaddon [_Staffordshire
Historical Collections_, Vol.9, p.9]. Isabel was still living by 1342
when there is an interesting entry in the Register of John Kirkby,
Bishop of Carlisle:

"It is good to give testimony in the business of the needy. At the
time of writing, the noble matron Isabel de Vernon was sane and in
perfect physical health, as could clearly be seen in her manor of
Mauld's Meaburn, where she lived. These letters are written in case
anyone might make an assertion to the contrary." [R.Storey (ed.),
_The
Register of John Kirkby, Bishop of Carlisle, 1332-1352,_ (Canterbury
and York Society, 1993), p.41]

The eldest son of Richard and Isabel was another Richard. His first
wife was Eleanor de Frenes, but then by Feb 1312/3 he was re-married
to Matilda de Camville daughter of William Camville. I can identify
three children, William, Isabel and Matilda, before Richard died in
Feb 1322/3.

Upon the subsequent death of his grandfather, William inherited his
grandfather's estates (or at least those which were not held in dower
by his mother and grandmother). His wife was a Joan whose surname I
have not yet identified. [_Staffordshire Historical Collections_,
Vol.12, p.58]

His sister Isabel married Richard de Stafford as stated before in
this
thread, but she was therefore the daughter of Richard de Vernon and
Matilda de Camville, and grandaughter of Richard de Vernon and Isabel
de Harcla. Again no connection to the Vescy family.

Their other sister, Matilda, received a grant from her mother in 12
Edward III (1338/9) of £20 yearly from the rents of her tenement in
Haunton, Staffordshire [BL, Harl MS. 2074, f.34]. I suspect that this
Matilda may then have married William son of Hugh de Venables of
Cheshire.

BL Harl MS 2077, f.37 gives summaries of the following two charters:

1/ Covenant of marriage that William son of Sir Hugh Venables should
marry Maude the daughter of Maude Vernon and of Richard Vernon. Dated
16 Edward III

2/ Maud who was wife of Richard de Vernon grants to Maude her
daughter
wife of William de Venables and her heirs an annual rent of £20
silver
from the lands and tenements which were of John de Cave in Hamtton.
Dated 23 Edward III.

I suspect that Hamtton was actually a misreading by the original
copier of Haunton. Haunton was part of the Camville land held by
Matilda de Vernon (nee Camville) in the 1327 Lay Subsidy, and so
looks
like this Vernon/Venables marriage was actually of the Haddon Vernons
rather than the Shipbrook Vernons.

Luke




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Gjest

Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2005 20:35:02

<< >I don't think we did miss a generation though- Will's OP did say that
Isabel was daughter of Richard who was in turn son of Richard and
Juliana (ie, Isabel de Harcla); it's just that neither of us mentioned
the younger Richard's wives!

Matthew

As proof that Sir Richard of Stafford (son of Edmund, 1st Baron Stafford b
1273 and his wife Margaret Basset) married to Isabel of Vernon we have
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 7&tree=LEO
which quotes as source for this marriage in 1337
A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct
peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866, Burke, Sir Bernard, Reference: 501

As proof that Isabel of Vernon was the daughter of Richard of Vernon and his
wife Maud (Matilda) of Camville we have
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
which quotes again as source
A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct
peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866, Burke, Sir Bernard, Reference: 501 &
Peter Sutton

Will Johnson

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