Judhael of Totness

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Patricia Junkin

Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 29 aug 2005 03:23:02

The Priory of Totness, according to Dugdale, was a cell of Saints Sergius
and Bacchus at Angers as was Swavesey to which Alan la Zouch and his
grandson confirmed gifts. Dugdale states that a Roger de Nuatte succeeded to
Judhell's [Juhellus filius Aluredi] estates and that Roger de Nuatte's heir
was a la Zouche.
Could someone suggest how Nuatte/Novant's heir was a la Zouche?
Thank you,
Pat

Peter Stewart

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 aug 2005 03:51:16

""Patricia Junkin"" <pajunkin@cox.net> wrote in message
news:20050829012152.GGIB12154.eastrmmtao02.cox.net@[68.230.205.125]...
The Priory of Totness, according to Dugdale, was a cell of Saints Sergius
and Bacchus at Angers as was Swavesey to which Alan la Zouch and his
grandson confirmed gifts. Dugdale states that a Roger de Nuatte succeeded
to
Judhell's [Juhellus filius Aluredi] estates and that Roger de Nuatte's
heir
was a la Zouche.
Could someone suggest how Nuatte/Novant's heir was a la Zouche?

Judhael was deprived of Totnes by William Rufus, apparently by early in
1091. He was later given Barnstaple, and possibly retained or regained some
castellan rights in Totnes after it was given to Roger I de Nonant.

Roger I was succeeded by his son Guy, and Guy by his son Roger II. Alan la
Zouche held North Molton in Devon at the same time as Roger II held Totnes.
The latter issued a "very detailed reconfirmation" of his grandfather's
gifts to Totnes priory, according to John Bryan Williams in 'Judhael of
Totnes: the Life and Times of a Post-Conquest Baron', _Anglo-Norman Studies_
16 (Proceeding of the Battle Conference 1993) p. 288.

What is Dugdale's statement or other evidence to the effect that La Zouche
descendants (who were lords of Ashby in the senior line & Haryngworth,
Northamptonshire in the cadet line), actually held Totnes?

Peter Stewart

Patricia Junkin

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 29 aug 2005 15:44:01

Peter,
There seems to be no more substantiation for the statement other than:
"presentation of the priors, Mr. Oliver observes, subsisted in the family of
Zouche until the accession of King Henry VII, when the head of the family
was attainted for supporting the cause of King Richard the Third....."
Monasticon: Priory of Totness in Devonshire."
An online gazetteer posted this concerning other Zouche Devon properties:In
1281, William la Suche called to warranty Roger la Sushe, who stated that
Black Torrington, with its fair had been held by Joelus del Meyne. It had
been taken into the king¹s hands and subsequently granted to Roger la
Susche, his grandfather, to be held as it had been held by Joelus."
[http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/devon.html#Bla]
Thank you for replying.
Pat

----------
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness
Date: Sun, Aug 28, 2005, 10:51 PM



""Patricia Junkin"" <pajunkin@cox.net> wrote in message
news:20050829012152.GGIB12154.eastrmmtao02.cox.net@[68.230.205.125]...
The Priory of Totness, according to Dugdale, was a cell of Saints Sergius
and Bacchus at Angers as was Swavesey to which Alan la Zouch and his
grandson confirmed gifts. Dugdale states that a Roger de Nuatte succeeded
to
Judhell's [Juhellus filius Aluredi] estates and that Roger de Nuatte's
heir
was a la Zouche.
Could someone suggest how Nuatte/Novant's heir was a la Zouche?

Judhael was deprived of Totnes by William Rufus, apparently by early in
1091. He was later given Barnstaple, and possibly retained or regained some
castellan rights in Totnes after it was given to Roger I de Nonant.

Roger I was succeeded by his son Guy, and Guy by his son Roger II. Alan la
Zouche held North Molton in Devon at the same time as Roger II held Totnes.
The latter issued a "very detailed reconfirmation" of his grandfather's
gifts to Totnes priory, according to John Bryan Williams in 'Judhael of
Totnes: the Life and Times of a Post-Conquest Baron', _Anglo-Norman Studies_
16 (Proceeding of the Battle Conference 1993) p. 288.

What is Dugdale's statement or other evidence to the effect that La Zouche
descendants (who were lords of Ashby in the senior line & Haryngworth,
Northamptonshire in the cadet line), actually held Totnes?

Peter Stewart


Doug Thompson

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 29 aug 2005 21:02:01

In 1205 King John granted the Honour of Totnes to William de Braose. William
claimed it as a great grandson of Judhael. (Judhael's daughter Aannor
married Philip de Braose)

Totnes remained in Braose hands until much of the Braose lands were
partititioned between heiresses in the 1240s. Half the Honour of Totnes went
to Eva de Braose who was married to William de Cantilupe.

Eva's moiety of Totnes eventually passed to William la Zouche, the son of
Eva's daughter Millicent and her husband, Eudo la Zouche.

So I don't think any earlier connection between Judhael or Roger Nonant and
the Zouches is indicated.

Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)

Patricia Junkin

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 29 aug 2005 22:53:02

Doug,
We can account for some of the re-distribution of property under King John
but I have Alan Zouche of North Molton, fined in Devon 1185. I agree that if
we find a Braose connection, it is through Milicent who married Eudo la
Zouche, and since Dugdale gives no dates for this "heir" of Novant at
Totness I think you must be correct.
Thank you.
Pat

----------
From: Doug Thompson <doug.thompson@virgin.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness
Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2005, 4:02 PM


In 1205 King John granted the Honour of Totnes to William de Braose. William
claimed it as a great grandson of Judhael. (Judhael's daughter Aannor
married Philip de Braose)

Totnes remained in Braose hands until much of the Braose lands were
partititioned between heiresses in the 1240s. Half the Honour of Totnes went
to Eva de Braose who was married to William de Cantilupe.

Eva's moiety of Totnes eventually passed to William la Zouche, the son of
Eva's daughter Millicent and her husband, Eudo la Zouche.

So I don't think any earlier connection between Judhael or Roger Nonant and
the Zouches is indicated.

Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)

Gjest

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2005 23:18:03

Dear Doug Thompson,
There may well be a connection between
Judhael of Totnes and the La Zouche family, whose ancestor who removed to
England was one Alan la Coche who was a son of Geoffrey, Viscount of Porhoet by his
wife Hawise, daughter of Alan IV, "Fergent", Duke of Brittany by his wife
Ermengarde, daughter of Fulk IV, Count of Anjou. Alan la Coche was in England by
1172, died 1190 and married Alice, daughter of Philip de Belmeis by Maud,
daughter of William le Meschin Source; AR 7 : line 39 gen 25-27. Unsure of an
exact connection, but They definitely inhabited the same region.

Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Peter Stewart

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 30 aug 2005 00:06:58

"Doug Thompson" <doug.thompson@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:BF3928F0.60140%doug.thompson@virgin.net...
In 1205 King John granted the Honour of Totnes to William de Braose.
William
claimed it as a great grandson of Judhael. (Judhael's daughter Aannor
married Philip de Braose)

Totnes remained in Braose hands until much of the Braose lands were
partititioned between heiresses in the 1240s. Half the Honour of Totnes
went
to Eva de Braose who was married to William de Cantilupe.

Eva's moiety of Totnes eventually passed to William la Zouche, the son of
Eva's daughter Millicent and her husband, Eudo la Zouche.

So I don't think any earlier connection between Judhael or Roger Nonant
and
the Zouches is indicated.


According to Ian Sanders, _English Baronies_ pp. 89-90, William de Braose
claimed a share of the barony of Totnes from Henry de Nonant (son & heir of
Roger II) at the end of Richard I's reign, and the barony was divided
between them in 1206. Henry died in the same year, and his lands passed to
Roger II de Vautort of Trematon, Cornwall in whose descent they continued
until early in the 14th century when they were divided between the Corbet
and Pomeroy families.

So there doesn't appear to be any hereditary Zouche connection for the
Nonant share either.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 aug 2005 01:10:02

I have to admit that I have not followed this line, so forgive me if I say
the wrong thing.

Judhael de Totness
is father of
Ainor de Totness
is mother of
William de Braose, Lord of Bramber
is father of
William de Braose, Lord of Brecknock
is father of
Reginald de Braose
is father of
William de Braose, Lord of Brecknock
is father of
Eva de Braose
is mother of
Milicent de Cantalupe who married Eudo de la Zouche.

I hope this is the appropriate answer to the question?
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <pajunkin@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness


Doug,
We can account for some of the re-distribution of property under King John
but I have Alan Zouche of North Molton, fined in Devon 1185. I agree that
if
we find a Braose connection, it is through Milicent who married Eudo la
Zouche, and since Dugdale gives no dates for this "heir" of Novant at
Totness I think you must be correct.
Thank you.
Pat

----------
From: Doug Thompson <doug.thompson@virgin.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness
Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2005, 4:02 PM


In 1205 King John granted the Honour of Totnes to William de Braose.
William
claimed it as a great grandson of Judhael. (Judhael's daughter Aannor
married Philip de Braose)

Totnes remained in Braose hands until much of the Braose lands were
partititioned between heiresses in the 1240s. Half the Honour of Totnes
went
to Eva de Braose who was married to William de Cantilupe.

Eva's moiety of Totnes eventually passed to William la Zouche, the son of
Eva's daughter Millicent and her husband, Eudo la Zouche.

So I don't think any earlier connection between Judhael or Roger Nonant
and
the Zouches is indicated.

Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm
(Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)



Patricia Junkin

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 30 aug 2005 18:13:02

Jim, Leo and Peter,


The Conqueror grants Judhael large estates in Devon.

Judhael endowes the priory of St. Mary Totness a Cell of the Great
Benedictine abbey of Saints Sergius and Bacchus. He also founded the priory
of Barnstaple.

Judhael apparently chooses the wrong side in 1088 and loses his lands.
Mortuo autem Willielmo rege filius ejus Willielmus successit in regnum, et
Juhello de Totenesio expulsa haereditatem ejus Rogerio de Novant donavit....
Roger de Nuatt/Novant/Nonante succeeded to these estates.
How long did this family hold these lands? Years or generations?

How did the lands pass to the Braose family?

If the ownership by the Braose family is predicated on the marriage of
William de Braose father to Judhael's daughter, was the property restored to
Judhael's family? Peter indicated that, according to Sanders," William de
Braose claimed a share of the barony of Totnes from Henry de Nonant (son &
heir of Roger II) at the end of Richard I's reign, and the barony was
divided between them in 1206." Do we know on what basis he was claiming a
share?

Thank you all for working through this with me.
Pat

----------
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness
Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2005, 5:16 PM


Dear Doug Thompson,
There may well be a connection between
Judhael of Totnes and the La Zouche family, whose ancestor who removed to
England was one Alan la Coche who was a son of Geoffrey, Viscount of
Porhoet by his
wife Hawise, daughter of Alan IV, "Fergent", Duke of Brittany by his wife
Ermengarde, daughter of Fulk IV, Count of Anjou. Alan la Coche was in England
by
1172, died 1190 and married Alice, daughter of Philip de Belmeis by Maud,
daughter of William le Meschin Source; AR 7 : line 39 gen 25-27. Unsure of
an
exact connection, but They definitely inhabited the same region.

Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Doug Thompson

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 31 aug 2005 12:07:43

in article 20050830161113.BULZ18394.centrmmtao04.cox.net@[68.230.205.125],
"Patricia Junkin" at pajunkin@cox.net wrote on 30/8/05 5:11 pm:

Roger de Nuatt/Novant/Nonante succeeded to these estates.
How long did this family hold these lands? Years or generations?

Until Braose claimed half in 1205 and the last Nonant died in the same year.

How did the lands pass to the Braose family?

William de Braose claimed it as the heir of Judhael's estates.
If the ownership by the Braose family is predicated on the marriage of
William de Braose father to Judhael's daughter, was the property restored to
Judhael's family?

There was no family closer to Judhael than William de Braose.


Braose claimed a share of the barony of Totnes from Henry de Nonant (son &
heir of Roger II) at the end of Richard I's reign, and the barony was
divided between them in 1206." Do we know on what basis he was claiming a
share?

See above. As a close friend of King John, William did not need a very
strong claim, but as Judhael's heir he was a strong claimant if Nonant was
put aside.

Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)

Patricia Junkin

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 31 aug 2005 22:28:02

Doug,

Thank you for the response.
Is this worth a read?
Judhael of Totnes: The Life and Times of a Post-Conquest BaronAuthor(s):John
Bryan Williams (Williams, John Bryan)Series
Volume:16Pages:271-289Publication Date:1993

I have no evidence of the marriage of Judhael's daughter to a Braose and
perhaps this contributes to my continued lack of understanding.
Certainly there were other heirs of Roger de Nonant.
ref. 312M/TY43 - date: [c. 1200] Henry de Nonant Hiis testibus Isabel de
Bolebec uxore mea, Rogero de Nonant fratre meo, Ric' de Nonant
One source states Sir Guy de Nonant, alive 1272, held a portion of the
"honour."

If Judhael was awarded the baony of Barnstaple in c. 1190, is their evidence
his lands at Totness were restored?

Do we know who Domina Aeliz uxor Rogerii de nonant was?


Thanks for your patience and responses.
Pat

----------
From: Doug Thompson <doug.thompson@virgin.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Judhael of Totness
Date: Wed, Aug 31, 2005, 7:07 AM


in article 20050830161113.BULZ18394.centrmmtao04.cox.net@[68.230.205.125],
"Patricia Junkin" at pajunkin@cox.net wrote on 30/8/05 5:11 pm:

Roger de Nuatt/Novant/Nonante succeeded to these estates.
How long did this family hold these lands? Years or generations?

Until Braose claimed half in 1205 and the last Nonant died in the same year.

How did the lands pass to the Braose family?

William de Braose claimed it as the heir of Judhael's estates.

If the ownership by the Braose family is predicated on the marriage of
William de Braose father to Judhael's daughter, was the property restored to
Judhael's family?

There was no family closer to Judhael than William de Braose.


Braose claimed a share of the barony of Totnes from Henry de Nonant (son &
heir of Roger II) at the end of Richard I's reign, and the barony was
divided between them in 1206." Do we know on what basis he was claiming a
share?

See above. As a close friend of King John, William did not need a very
strong claim, but as Judhael's heir he was a strong claimant if Nonant was
put aside.

Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)



Doug Thompson

Re: Judhael of Totness

Legg inn av Doug Thompson » 31 aug 2005 22:59:45

in article 20050831202651.PMCE18478.eastrmmtao06.cox.net@[68.230.205.125],
"Patricia Junkin" at pajunkin@cox.net wrote on 31/8/05 9:27 pm:

Doug,

Thank you for the response.
Is this worth a read?
Judhael of Totnes: The Life and Times of a Post-Conquest BaronAuthor(s):John
Bryan Williams (Williams, John Bryan)Series
Volume:16Pages:271-289Publication Date:1993

I found it interesting, without providing me with any really new facts.

I have no evidence of the marriage of Judhael's daughter to a Braose

When confirming the possessions of Barnstaple Priory, William de Braose, son
of Philip, mentions "avus suus", his grandfather, Johel of Totnes.

perhaps this contributes to my continued lack of understanding.
Certainly there were other heirs of Roger de Nonant.
ref. 312M/TY43 - date: [c. 1200] Henry de Nonant Hiis testibus Isabel de
Bolebec uxore mea, Rogero de Nonant fratre meo, Ric' de Nonant
One source states Sir Guy de Nonant, alive 1272, held a portion of the
"honour."

If Judhael was awarded the baony of Barnstaple in c. 1190, is their evidence
his lands at Totness were restored?

You are confused here! Judhael was long dead in 1190! He was awarded
Barnstaple about 1095. His lands at Totnes were never restored - Barnstaple
was a substitute for them.
Do we know who Domina Aeliz uxor Rogerii de nonant was?


I don't.

Thanks for your patience and responses.

You're welcome.


Regards

Doug Thompson
--------------
History and Genealogy of the Braose Family

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm (Genealogy)

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm (History)

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