Hi all,
I am wondering if the family arms are similarly let go when the family
lands are.
Specifically, the Lords of Roeulx, who bore Or, three lions rampant,
gules, ended in the lack of a male heir for Eustace, last Lord of
Roeulx. His brother, Fastre, sells his holdings in Trith by marriage
to the Count of Hainault ca. 1322 (he gets 'usufruct' usage in return)
and in 1325 'disinherits' himself of all his other holdings to the
same count. He leaves Hainault and joins in an English expedition
against the Scots in which he died, in apparently 'pecuniary straits',
in 1331.
Does anyone know what bearing, if any, this 'disinheritment' had on
his right to bear the arms of Roeulx?
I am wondering inasmuch as the Payne Roet, father of Katherine
Swynford, does seem to have passed down to his daughter the arms of
three wheels, 2 and 1, with a pierced mullet for difference (3rd
son??), and yet Lindsay Brook has made a case for Payne being one of
the last, younger, brothers of the last Eustace, Lord of Roeulx.
Whence then, came he by these arms with a difference indicating birth
order?
Kindest thanks for any insights,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
What happens when you 'disinherit' yourself?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: What happens when you 'disinherit' yourself?
In message of 28 Aug, "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. Not in England or Scotland.
Arms are borne in a heraldic jurisdiction. You can have different arms
in England to those in France. It might be that your French arms are
used by someone else in England so you have to use something different
in England.
This is a genealogical question. But some difference marks are not
always indications of a difference, they may be a different family.
Viz the label where it is, for instance, used as a charge on the arms
of the Barringtons of Hatfeild Broadoak, Essex but is also used as a
difference mark.
I know nothing of French heraldic practices of those times, of course.
You might get a better answer on the rec.heraldry newsgroup.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Hi all,
I am wondering if the family arms are similarly let go when the family
lands are.
No. Not in England or Scotland.
Specifically, the Lords of Roeulx, who bore Or, three lions rampant,
gules, ended in the lack of a male heir for Eustace, last Lord of
Roeulx. His brother, Fastre, sells his holdings in Trith by marriage
to the Count of Hainault ca. 1322 (he gets 'usufruct' usage in return)
and in 1325 'disinherits' himself of all his other holdings to the
same count. He leaves Hainault and joins in an English expedition
against the Scots in which he died, in apparently 'pecuniary straits',
in 1331.
Does anyone know what bearing, if any, this 'disinheritment' had on
his right to bear the arms of Roeulx?
Arms are borne in a heraldic jurisdiction. You can have different arms
in England to those in France. It might be that your French arms are
used by someone else in England so you have to use something different
in England.
I am wondering inasmuch as the Payne Roet, father of Katherine
Swynford, does seem to have passed down to his daughter the arms of
three wheels, 2 and 1, with a pierced mullet for difference (3rd
son??), and yet Lindsay Brook has made a case for Payne being one of
the last, younger, brothers of the last Eustace, Lord of Roeulx.
Whence then, came he by these arms with a difference indicating birth
order?
This is a genealogical question. But some difference marks are not
always indications of a difference, they may be a different family.
Viz the label where it is, for instance, used as a charge on the arms
of the Barringtons of Hatfeild Broadoak, Essex but is also used as a
difference mark.
I know nothing of French heraldic practices of those times, of course.
You might get a better answer on the rec.heraldry newsgroup.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: What happens when you 'disinherit' yourself?
Thank you, Tim!
Whilst waiting to see what folks had to say on the issue, I went back
to re-read (for a different reason) the FMG article on the Robessart
tomb at Westminster and came upon the following statement:
"Like so many arms at this period, which were territorial rather than
personal..."
I wonder if this means that perhaps in Hainault arms were attached to
the land rather than the person or family?
Kindest thanks,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
Whilst waiting to see what folks had to say on the issue, I went back
to re-read (for a different reason) the FMG article on the Robessart
tomb at Westminster and came upon the following statement:
"Like so many arms at this period, which were territorial rather than
personal..."
I wonder if this means that perhaps in Hainault arms were attached to
the land rather than the person or family?
Kindest thanks,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: What happens when you 'disinherit' yourself?
In message of 1 Sep, "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com> wrote:
Of course, I had forgotten about arms of an office. The earldom of
Gloucester, for instance, had its own arms, though the practice is not
totally clear. I think some of this only appeared in the early years
of heraldry when people were trying out different concepts. But
bishoprics definitely have their own arms and will be impaled to the
personal arms of an individual bishop.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Thank you, Tim!
Whilst waiting to see what folks had to say on the issue, I went back
to re-read (for a different reason) the FMG article on the Robessart
tomb at Westminster and came upon the following statement:
"Like so many arms at this period, which were territorial rather than
personal..."
I wonder if this means that perhaps in Hainault arms were attached to
the land rather than the person or family?
Of course, I had forgotten about arms of an office. The earldom of
Gloucester, for instance, had its own arms, though the practice is not
totally clear. I think some of this only appeared in the early years
of heraldry when people were trying out different concepts. But
bishoprics definitely have their own arms and will be impaled to the
personal arms of an individual bishop.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org