Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

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Gjest

Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 aug 2005 21:21:52

Amongst the ancestors of the Coggeshall family of Essex is Sir Henry de
Coggeshall, MP (whose son, Sir William de Coggeshall 1358-1426, married
Antiocha/Mary Hawkwood).

According to Roskell's The House of Commons 1386-1421, Vol II, p616,
Sir Henry (d 1376) married "Joan, da. and h. of Sir William Welle of
Great Samford, Essex, and Well Hall in Exning, Suffolk"; among his
property were "lands in Fordham, Cambridgeshire".

The Victoria County History of Cambridgeshire, Vol 10, sub Fordham,
says that Henry and Joan "perished together in 1375 (sic)" [I wonder
what the story of that is? The statement is not foot-noted] It further
states that the manor at Fordham, afterwards called Coggeshalls, had
passed into the Coggeshall family as Joan's inheritance from her
father, Sir William Well (sic) who died in 1349. He had it from his
parents, Philip de Well (d 1332) and Isabella nee Kemesek (d 1325).

The article goes on to trace the generational descent of the Kemeseks
in Fordham thus:

1. Henry de Kemesek, grantee of 1174, died circa 1190
2. Arnulf de Kemesek, son, died circa 1191
3. Henry de Kemesek, son, of age 1207, died circa 1235
4a. Tibbald de Kemesek, son, died without issue
4b. Henry de Kemesek, brother, died without issue
4c. Edmund de Kemesek, brother, inherited by 1242, died 1253
5a. Henry de Kemesek, son, died without issue
5b. Edmund de Kemesek, brother, of age 1268, died circa 1288; married
Parnel "who had Fordham until after 1302 as part of her dower"
6. Edmund de Kemesek, son, died circa 1300
7a. Parnel de Kemesek, daughter & coheir, married Thomas de Gardinis,
but died without issue 1313
7b. Isabel de Kemesek married Philip de Well - supra

It appears that Parnel, wife of (5b) Edmund, survived her husband by
many years. PROCAT shows an item dated 1 Edward II (1326-7):

"Petronilla de Kemesek to settle half the manor of Polstead on herself
for life, remainder to Thomas her son for life, remainder to James de
Lamburne, Joan his wife, and his heirs: Suffolk " [C 143/67/22]

This ties in with a record on A2A from the Iveagh Manuscripts in the
Suffolk Record Office:

"23 May 1308: Petronilla de Kemesek, sometime daughter and one of [the]
heirs of Sir Hugh de Polstede"

It would therefore seem that Edmund de Kemesek II's wife was
Parnel/Petronilla de Polstead, and that she inherited half the manor of
Polstead, Suffolk.

William Coggeshall and Antiocha/Mary Hawkwood have many descendants
today, including I think John Steele Gordon and, according to Paget who
lists their daughter and her Tyrell husband [Q113603/4 and Q115106/7
are the references Leo posted a few years ago], HRH The Prince of
Wales.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 aug 2005 09:41:51

A more detailed descent of the Coggeshalls from the Polsteads:

1. Sir Hugh de Polstead, lord of Polstead, Suffolk; probably the one of
that name subject of PROCAT record E 329/74 "Hugh son of Hugh de
Polsted, knight, and Aubrey his wife, daughter of Alan son of Auger:
demise of a rent from land and buildings from Cannon Street in the
parish of St Mary Abchurch, London, 1240-1241"; IPM 50 Henry III shows
he held the manor of Polstead, and the manor of Burnham in Norfolk, as
well as moieties of the two advowsons there. His heirs are named as
his daughters:

2a. Hawis, aged 22 in 50 Henry III
2b. Petronilla, aged 18 in 50 Henry III (see below)
2c. Rohesia, aged 14 or 15 and more in 50 Henry III

****************

2b. Petronilla de Polstead, born circa 1247; co-heiress to her father;
mentioned in the IPM of William de Tendring, 33 Edward I, as lady of
part of one third of the manor of Polstead, along with James de
Lamburne and John de Peytone; settled half (sic) the manor of Polstead
for life, remainder to Thomas her son for life, remainder to James de
Lamburne(*), Joan his wife, and his heirs, 1 Edward II (c1327) [C
143/67/22]; married Edmund de Kemesek, lord of Farnham, Cambridgeshire;
of age 1268, so born circa 1247; IPM 16 Edward I states he died on the
Thursday before SS Philip & James, 16 Edward I, holding Fordham,
Exninge in Suffolk, and land at Felstead & Tilbury, Essex. Issue:

3a. Edmund de Kemesek, aged 19 years and 12 weeks on "eve of Whitsun,
16 Edward I" (see below)
3b. Thomas de Kemesek, remainderman to his mother's holdings in
Polstead, 1 Edward II

*********************

3a. Edmund de Kemesek, born circa 1269; IPM 28 Edward I refers to his
lordship at Great Samford, Essex, out of which 30 shillings was payable
to his mother Petronilla for part of her dower, and naming his
daughters Petronilla, 8, and Isabel, 7, as his heirs; married Joan, IPM
5 Edward III states that she held a messuage, lands, rent and a ferry
at Tilbury "in free marriage with... Edmund [de Kemesyk] sometime her
husband, and one third of the manor of Great Samford as dower; her heir
was "William, son of Isabel daughter of the said Edmund and Joan, whom
Philip de Welle married, aged 20 years and more". Issue:

4a. Petronilla de Kemesek, born circa 1291; her IPM 7 Edward II shows
she married Thomas de Gardinis, her guardian, "but died before she had
proved her age"; she held a part of the manor of Great Samford; her
heir was her sister Isabel, wife of Philip de Welles, aged 19.

4b. Isabel de Kemesek, born circa 1293; died in 1325; married Philip de
Welle; his IPM 6 Edward III states he held Fordham, Cambs, by the
courtesy of England for life after the death of Isabel his wife, as
well as two parts of the manor of Great Samford and property at Exning;
he died February 6 Edward III; his heir was William his son, aged 22
years and more. Issue:

5. Sir William de Welle, born circa 1310; proved his age 6 April 6
Edward III (Calendar of IPMs Vol 7 #481 p 343) as kinsman and heir of
Joan de Kemesek: "John Richemond aged 60 says the same William was 22
years of age at the feast of the Annunciation last, for he was born at
Great Sampford and baptised in the church there on the morrow of the
said feast 2 Edward II - this he knows because he acquired of John
Pikel 20 acres of land in Thaxted on Monday before the said feast in
[that] year which he gave to his wife; Roger de Wattvile who had the
wardship of the lands etc had nothing to say why the said lands etc
ought not to be restored to the said William"; died 1349. Issue:

6. Joan de Welle, married Sir Henry de Coggeshall - see earlier posting

(*) James de Lamburne was son & heir of William de Lamburne, whose IPM
(#579 Calendar of IPMs Edward I Vol 4) of c1299 refers to his manorial
holdings in Polstead; James was then said to be "aged 31 and more" -
perhaps his mother was another of the daughters of Sir Hugh de
Polstead, and he was thus a nephew of Petronilla de Kemesek

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 15 sep 2005 19:02:46

Dear Michael ~

I should mention that there is several charters for Edmund de Kemesek,
his father, Henry [son of Arnulph} de Kemesek, and for Edmund's widow,
Maud, in the book, The Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of
Jerusalem in England, Secunda Camera, Essex, edited by Michael Gervers
(Recs. of Social & Econ. Hist. n.s. 6) (1982). The charters concern
the Kemesek's family lands at Great and Little Sampford, Essex. Mr.
Gervers prefers to use the modern spelling, Kamesek.

Regarding Henry de Kemesek, the editor writes:

pg. 538. "Henry de Kemesek was lord of Great Sampford. Henry does not
appear after 1237 and was dead by 1240 (Essex Feet of Feets i 136 no.
164)."

Regarding Edmund de Kemesek, the editor writes:

pg. 539: "Edmund son of Henry de Kemesek and Matilda his wife are
associated with Tilbury-juxta-Clare in 1240 (Essex Feet of Fines i
136-137 no. 164). Edmund died on 27 March 1287 (Calendarium
Genealogica, Henry III and Edward I, i 391), and very few grants were
made to the Order after the passage of the Statute of Mortmain in
1279."

I assume Edmund and Maud de Kemesek named above are the parents of
Edmund de Kemesek, born in or before 1247, died 1287, who married
Pernel de Polstead, who appear in your post below. If so, then Mr.
Gervers has incorrectly assigned the 1287 death date of Edmund de
Kemesek (whose wife you show was Pernel de Polstead) to that of his
father, Edmund, Senior, whose wife was named Maud. Clearly Edmund,
Senior, must have died before 1287.

In defence of Mr. Gervers' slip, the charters he includes for Edmund de
Kemesek and that of his widow, Maud, are both undated and have no
witnesses. Confusing a father and son of the same name is the bane of
medieval research.

Lastly, I should note that Sir Hugh de Polstead, father of Pernel (de
Polstead) de Kemesek, appears as a witness to a charter to the
Hospitallers dated c. 1240 (Gervers, pg. 214). Regarding Hugh de
Polstead, Gervers writes:

pg. 214: "Hugh of Polstead does not occur after 1238 (Essex Feet of
Fines i 119 no. 582)."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
A more detailed descent of the Coggeshalls from the Polsteads:

1. Sir Hugh de Polstead, lord of Polstead, Suffolk; probably the one of
that name subject of PROCAT record E 329/74 "Hugh son of Hugh de
Polsted, knight, and Aubrey his wife, daughter of Alan son of Auger:
demise of a rent from land and buildings from Cannon Street in the
parish of St Mary Abchurch, London, 1240-1241"; IPM 50 Henry III shows
he held the manor of Polstead, and the manor of Burnham in Norfolk, as
well as moieties of the two advowsons there. His heirs are named as
his daughters:

2a. Hawis, aged 22 in 50 Henry III
2b. Petronilla, aged 18 in 50 Henry III (see below)
2c. Rohesia, aged 14 or 15 and more in 50 Henry III

****************

2b. Petronilla de Polstead, born circa 1247; co-heiress to her father;
mentioned in the IPM of William de Tendring, 33 Edward I, as lady of
part of one third of the manor of Polstead, along with James de
Lamburne and John de Peytone; settled half (sic) the manor of Polstead
for life, remainder to Thomas her son for life, remainder to James de
Lamburne(*), Joan his wife, and his heirs, 1 Edward II (c1327) [C
143/67/22]; married Edmund de Kemesek, lord of Farnham, Cambridgeshire;
of age 1268, so born circa 1247; IPM 16 Edward I states he died on the
Thursday before SS Philip & James, 16 Edward I, holding Fordham,
Exninge in Suffolk, and land at Felstead & Tilbury, Essex. Issue:

3a. Edmund de Kemesek, aged 19 years and 12 weeks on "eve of Whitsun,
16 Edward I" (see below)
3b. Thomas de Kemesek, remainderman to his mother's holdings in
Polstead, 1 Edward II

*********************

3a. Edmund de Kemesek, born circa 1269; IPM 28 Edward I refers to his
lordship at Great Samford, Essex, out of which 30 shillings was payable
to his mother Petronilla for part of her dower, and naming his
daughters Petronilla, 8, and Isabel, 7, as his heirs; married Joan, IPM
5 Edward III states that she held a messuage, lands, rent and a ferry
at Tilbury "in free marriage with... Edmund [de Kemesyk] sometime her
husband, and one third of the manor of Great Samford as dower; her heir
was "William, son of Isabel daughter of the said Edmund and Joan, whom
Philip de Welle married, aged 20 years and more". Issue:

4a. Petronilla de Kemesek, born circa 1291; her IPM 7 Edward II shows
she married Thomas de Gardinis, her guardian, "but died before she had
proved her age"; she held a part of the manor of Great Samford; her
heir was her sister Isabel, wife of Philip de Welles, aged 19.

4b. Isabel de Kemesek, born circa 1293; died in 1325; married Philip de
Welle; his IPM 6 Edward III states he held Fordham, Cambs, by the
courtesy of England for life after the death of Isabel his wife, as
well as two parts of the manor of Great Samford and property at Exning;
he died February 6 Edward III; his heir was William his son, aged 22
years and more. Issue:

5. Sir William de Welle, born circa 1310; proved his age 6 April 6
Edward III (Calendar of IPMs Vol 7 #481 p 343) as kinsman and heir of
Joan de Kemesek: "John Richemond aged 60 says the same William was 22
years of age at the feast of the Annunciation last, for he was born at
Great Sampford and baptised in the church there on the morrow of the
said feast 2 Edward II - this he knows because he acquired of John
Pikel 20 acres of land in Thaxted on Monday before the said feast in
[that] year which he gave to his wife; Roger de Wattvile who had the
wardship of the lands etc had nothing to say why the said lands etc
ought not to be restored to the said William"; died 1349. Issue:

6. Joan de Welle, married Sir Henry de Coggeshall - see earlier posting

(*) James de Lamburne was son & heir of William de Lamburne, whose IPM
(#579 Calendar of IPMs Edward I Vol 4) of c1299 refers to his manorial
holdings in Polstead; James was then said to be "aged 31 and more" -
perhaps his mother was another of the daughters of Sir Hugh de
Polstead, and he was thus a nephew of Petronilla de Kemesek

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 15 sep 2005 19:16:24

Dear Michael ~

I should mention that there are several charters for Edmund de Kemesek,
his father, Henry [son of Arnulph} de Kemesek, and for Edmund's widow,
Maud, in the book, The Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of
Jerusalem in England, Secunda Camera, Essex, edited by Michael Gervers
(Recs. of Social & Econ. Hist. n.s. 6) (1982). The charters concern
the Kemesek's family lands at Great and Little Sampford, Essex. Mr.
Gervers prefers to use the modern spelling, Kamesek.

Regarding Henry de Kemesek, the editor writes:

pg. 538. "Henry de Kamesek was lord of Great Sampford. Henry does not
appear after 1237 and was dead by 1240 (Essex Feet of Feets i 136 no.
164)."

Regarding Edmund de Kemesek, the editor writes:

pg. 539: "Edmund son of Henry de Kamesek and Matilda his wife are
associated with Tilbury-juxta-Clare in 1240 (Essex Feet of Fines i
136-137 no. 164). Edmund died on 27 March 1287 (Calendarium
Genealogica, Henry III and Edward I, i 391), and very few grants were
made to the Order after the passage of the Statute of Mortmain in
1279."

I assume Edmund and Maud de Kemesek named above are the parents of
Edmund de Kemesek, born in or before 1247, died 1287, who married
Pernel de Polstead, who appear in your post below. If so, then Mr.
Gervers has incorrectly assigned the 1287 death date of Edmund de
Kemesek (whose wife you show was Pernel de Polstead) to that of his
father, Edmund, Senior, whose wife was named Maud. Clearly Edmund,
Senior, must have died before 1287.

In defence of Mr. Gervers' slip, the charters he includes for Edmund de
Kemesek and that of his widow, Maud, are both undated and have no
witnesses. Confusing a father and son of the same name is the bane of
medieval research.

Lastly, I should note that Sir Hugh de Polstead, father of Pernel (de
Polstead) de Kemesek, appears as a witness to a charter to the
Hospitallers dated c. 1240 (Gervers, pg. 214). Regarding Hugh de
Polstead, Gervers writes:

pg. 214: "Hugh of Polstead does not occur after 1238 (Essex Feet of
Fines i 119 no. 582)."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

m...@btinternet.com wrote:
< A more detailed descent of the Coggeshalls from the Polsteads:

< 1. Sir Hugh de Polstead, lord of Polstead, Suffolk; probably the one
of
< that name subject of PROCAT record E 329/74 "Hugh son of Hugh de
< Polsted, knight, and Aubrey his wife, daughter of Alan son of Auger:
< demise of a rent from land and buildings from Cannon Street in the
< parish of St Mary Abchurch, London, 1240-1241"; IPM 50 Henry III
shows
< he held the manor of Polstead, and the manor of Burnham in Norfolk,
as
< well as moieties of the two advowsons there. His heirs are named as
< his daughters:

< 2a. Hawis, aged 22 in 50 Henry III
< 2b. Petronilla, aged 18 in 50 Henry III (see below)
< 2c. Rohesia, aged 14 or 15 and more in 50 Henry III

< ****************

< 2b. Petronilla de Polstead, born circa 1247; co-heiress to her
father;
< mentioned in the IPM of William de Tendring, 33 Edward I, as lady of
< part of one third of the manor of Polstead, along with James de
< Lamburne and John de Peytone; settled half (sic) the manor of
Polstead
< for life, remainder to Thomas her son for life, remainder to James de
< Lamburne(*), Joan his wife, and his heirs, 1 Edward II (c1327) [C
< 143/67/22]; married Edmund de Kemesek, lord of Farnham,
Cambridgeshire;
< of age 1268, so born circa 1247; IPM 16 Edward I states he died on
the
< Thursday before SS Philip & James, 16 Edward I, holding Fordham,
< Exninge in Suffolk, and land at Felstead & Tilbury, Essex. Issue:

< 3a. Edmund de Kemesek, aged 19 years and 12 weeks on "eve of Whitsun,
< 16 Edward I" (see below)
< 3b. Thomas de Kemesek, remainderman to his mother's holdings in
< Polstead, 1 Edward II

< *********************

3a. Edmund de Kemesek, born circa 1269; IPM 28 Edward I refers to his
lordship at Great Samford, Essex, out of which 30 shillings was payable
to his mother Petronilla for part of her dower, and naming his
daughters Petronilla, 8, and Isabel, 7, as his heirs; married Joan, IPM
5 Edward III states that she held a messuage, lands, rent and a ferry
at Tilbury "in free marriage with... Edmund [de Kemesyk] sometime her
husband, and one third of the manor of Great Samford as dower; her heir
was "William, son of Isabel daughter of the said Edmund and Joan, whom
Philip de Welle married, aged 20 years and more". Issue:

4a. Petronilla de Kemesek, born circa 1291; her IPM 7 Edward II shows
she married Thomas de Gardinis, her guardian, "but died before she had
proved her age"; she held a part of the manor of Great Samford; her
heir was her sister Isabel, wife of Philip de Welles, aged 19.

4b. Isabel de Kemesek, born circa 1293; died in 1325; married Philip de
Welle; his IPM 6 Edward III states he held Fordham, Cambs, by the
courtesy of England for life after the death of Isabel his wife, as
well as two parts of the manor of Great Samford and property at Exning;
he died February 6 Edward III; his heir was William his son, aged 22
years and more. Issue:

5. Sir William de Welle, born circa 1310; proved his age 6 April 6
Edward III (Calendar of IPMs Vol 7 #481 p 343) as kinsman and heir of
Joan de Kemesek: "John Richemond aged 60 says the same William was 22
years of age at the feast of the Annunciation last, for he was born at
Great Sampford and baptised in the church there on the morrow of the
said feast 2 Edward II - this he knows because he acquired of John
Pikel 20 acres of land in Thaxted on Monday before the said feast in
[that] year which he gave to his wife; Roger de Wattvile who had the
wardship of the lands etc had nothing to say why the said lands etc
ought not to be restored to the said William"; died 1349. Issue:

6. Joan de Welle, married Sir Henry de Coggeshall - see earlier posting

(*) James de Lamburne was son & heir of William de Lamburne, whose IPM
(#579 Calendar of IPMs Edward I Vol 4) of c1299 refers to his manorial
holdings in Polstead; James was then said to be "aged 31 and more" -
perhaps his mother was another of the daughters of Sir Hugh de
Polstead, and he was thus a nephew of Petronilla de Kemesek

Gjest

Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 sep 2005 21:45:41

Douglas

I am very grateful to you for this post about the Kemesek/Kamesek
charter references. In particular they provide the name of Edmund
(I)'s wife - Maud/Matilda - of which I was previously unaware. I agree
with your assessment that the editor has conflated Edmund (dead by
1253) with his son Edmund (II) who died circa 1287.

A good find.

Much appreciated

Michael

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 15 sep 2005 23:15:23

Dear Michael ~

You're quite welcome.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
< Douglas
<
< I am very grateful to you for this post about the Kemesek/Kamesek
< charter references. In particular they provide the name of Edmund
< (I)'s wife - Maud/Matilda - of which I was previously unaware. I
agree
< with your assessment that the editor has conflated Edmund (dead by
< 1253) with his son Edmund (II) who died circa 1287.
<
< A good find.
<
< Much appreciated
<
< Michael

Hal Bradley

RE: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 24 sep 2005 19:10:02

Michael, Kelly, Douglas, and all those who have posted on the Coggeshall
ancestry. Thank you.

I have one small addition that I have not seen.

CIPM IX, no. 669, for "Joan, daughter and heir of William de Welles", who
married Henry de Coggeshale, includes the following:

"Simon Maynard, aged 60 years, agrees and says that he met one Mary
Kellehog, midwife of Agnes, mother of the said Joan, coming with the said
Joan from the church from the baptism, and on the same day he had a son dead
named Reynold."

The wife of William de Welle and mother of Joan was Agnes. Too bad they gave
the full name of the midwife and not of Joan's mother.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: mjcar@btinternet.com [mailto:mjcar@btinternet.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 1:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Kemesek of Fordham, Cambs


snip

5. Sir William de Welle, born circa 1310; proved his age 6 April 6
Edward III (Calendar of IPMs Vol 7 #481 p 343) as kinsman and heir of
Joan de Kemesek: "John Richemond aged 60 says the same William was 22
years of age at the feast of the Annunciation last, for he was born at
Great Sampford and baptised in the church there on the morrow of the
said feast 2 Edward II - this he knows because he acquired of John
Pikel 20 acres of land in Thaxted on Monday before the said feast in
[that] year which he gave to his wife; Roger de Wattvile who had the
wardship of the lands etc had nothing to say why the said lands etc
ought not to be restored to the said William"; died 1349. Issue:

6. Joan de Welle, married Sir Henry de Coggeshall - see
earlier posting

snip

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