Dear Newsgroup ~
I've been enjoying reading through a most interesting volume, The
Diplomatic Correspondence of Richard II, edited by Eduoard Perroy
(Camden Soc. 3rd ser. 48) (1933). The book contains
abstracts/transcripts of some 252 original letters of King Richard II
written in his name and sent to foreign courts, 28 of which only have
been previously printed elsewhere.
Included on page 31 in this volume is a brief letter from King Richard
II of England to one to his "kinsman" [consanguineo nostro carissimo],
Olaf VI, King of Norway dated 1378/1385.
I was not aware that King Richard II was near related in any manner to
King Olaf VI. However, based on my research into such kinships, one
should expect for such a kinship to fall within the fifth degree on at
least one side. Does such a kinship exist?
Studying the families involved, I've determined that yes, King Richard
II of England and King Olaf VI of Norway were in fact related in the
5th and 6th degrees of kindred by way of common descent from King Henry
III of England.
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edward II, King of England.
4. Edward III, King of England.
5. Edward the Black Prince, Prince of Wales.
6. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King of
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
Very interesting
(But I think the reference should be to King Olaf IV, rather than VI,
of Norway, aka Olaf II of Sweden, 1370-1387)
(But I think the reference should be to King Olaf IV, rather than VI,
of Norway, aka Olaf II of Sweden, 1370-1387)
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
In fact, one could tighten it a little further using Richard's maternal
ascent to Henry III, thus:
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edmund 'of Woodstock', Earl of Kent
4. Joan, 'Fair Maid of Kent'
5. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
ascent to Henry III, thus:
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edmund 'of Woodstock', Earl of Kent
4. Joan, 'Fair Maid of Kent'
5. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
Thank you for your good post.
Yes, you're entirely correct. The other descent you have set forth for
King Richard II would give him an even closer kinship to King Olaf
through King Henry III of England.
In answer to your question, the transcript of the letter from King
Richard II of England to King Olaf of Norway does not specify any
ordinal for Olaf. The index, however, identified Olaf as Olaf VI, King
of Norway, which is the ordinal I used in my post. I doublechecked the
index to make sure I used the ordinal employed by the modern editor.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Yes, you're entirely correct. The other descent you have set forth for
King Richard II would give him an even closer kinship to King Olaf
through King Henry III of England.
In answer to your question, the transcript of the letter from King
Richard II of England to King Olaf of Norway does not specify any
ordinal for Olaf. The index, however, identified Olaf as Olaf VI, King
of Norway, which is the ordinal I used in my post. I doublechecked the
index to make sure I used the ordinal employed by the modern editor.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In fact, one could tighten it a little further using Richard's maternal
ascent to Henry III, thus:
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edmund 'of Woodstock', Earl of Kent
4. Joan, 'Fair Maid of Kent'
5. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
Here's another relationship, not as tight as the previous (i.e. third
cousins, twice removed - this is 4th cousins) but still within the
fifth degree:
1. Henry II, Count of Luxembourg, died 1281
2. Philippa, married John II, Count of Holland & Hainault
3. William III, Count of Holland
4. Philippa of Hainault, married Edward III, King of England
5. Edward, Prince of Wales
6. Richard II, King of England
1. Henry II, Count of Luxembourg, died 1281
2. Isabella, married Guy de Dampierre, Count of Flanders
3. John de Dampierre, Count of Namur
4. Blanche of Namur
5. Haakon VI of Norway
6. Olaf IV of Norway
cousins, twice removed - this is 4th cousins) but still within the
fifth degree:
1. Henry II, Count of Luxembourg, died 1281
2. Philippa, married John II, Count of Holland & Hainault
3. William III, Count of Holland
4. Philippa of Hainault, married Edward III, King of England
5. Edward, Prince of Wales
6. Richard II, King of England
1. Henry II, Count of Luxembourg, died 1281
2. Isabella, married Guy de Dampierre, Count of Flanders
3. John de Dampierre, Count of Namur
4. Blanche of Namur
5. Haakon VI of Norway
6. Olaf IV of Norway
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
According to modern counting they are 4th cousins. I have the Norwegian King
as Oluf II-V King of Denmark and Norway, he lived from 1370 to 1387. I
wonder who called him Olav VI, don't forget King Olav V is the father of
present day King Harald of Norway.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:44 AM
Subject: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King of Norway
as Oluf II-V King of Denmark and Norway, he lived from 1370 to 1387. I
wonder who called him Olav VI, don't forget King Olav V is the father of
present day King Harald of Norway.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:44 AM
Subject: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King of Norway
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've been enjoying reading through a most interesting volume, The
Diplomatic Correspondence of Richard II, edited by Eduoard Perroy
(Camden Soc. 3rd ser. 48) (1933). The book contains
abstracts/transcripts of some 252 original letters of King Richard II
written in his name and sent to foreign courts, 28 of which only have
been previously printed elsewhere.
Included on page 31 in this volume is a brief letter from King Richard
II of England to one to his "kinsman" [consanguineo nostro carissimo],
Olaf VI, King of Norway dated 1378/1385.
I was not aware that King Richard II was near related in any manner to
King Olaf VI. However, based on my research into such kinships, one
should expect for such a kinship to fall within the fifth degree on at
least one side. Does such a kinship exist?
Studying the families involved, I've determined that yes, King Richard
II of England and King Olaf VI of Norway were in fact related in the
5th and 6th degrees of kindred by way of common descent from King Henry
III of England.
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edward II, King of England.
4. Edward III, King of England.
5. Edward the Black Prince, Prince of Wales.
6. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
The ordinal employed by the modern editor? Did he not know that Olav V of
Norway was born in 1903? Perhaps you should have double checked elsewhere.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King of
Norway
Norway was born in 1903? Perhaps you should have double checked elsewhere.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King of
Norway
Thank you for your good post.
Yes, you're entirely correct. The other descent you have set forth for
King Richard II would give him an even closer kinship to King Olaf
through King Henry III of England.
In answer to your question, the transcript of the letter from King
Richard II of England to King Olaf of Norway does not specify any
ordinal for Olaf. The index, however, identified Olaf as Olaf VI, King
of Norway, which is the ordinal I used in my post. I doublechecked the
index to make sure I used the ordinal employed by the modern editor.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In fact, one could tighten it a little further using Richard's maternal
ascent to Henry III, thus:
l. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Edward I, King of England.
3. Edmund 'of Woodstock', Earl of Kent
4. Joan, 'Fair Maid of Kent'
5. Richard II, King of England.
1. Henry III, King of England, d. 1272.
2. Beatrice of England, married Jean, Duke of Brittany.
3. Blanche of Brittany, married Philippe of Artois.
4. Marie of Artois, married Jean de Dampierre, Count of Namur.
5. Blanche of Dampierre, married Magnus II, King of Norway and Sweden.
6. Hakon VI Magnusson, King of Norway and Sweden.
7. Olaf VI, King of Norway.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: King's Kinsman: King Richard II's kinsman, Olaf VI, King
Comments interspersed:
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1125085460.941220.293890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
28 of which only HAD been previously printed - you are writing about a book
published 72 years ago, not current news. This is definitely NOT what
Brandon so peculiarly calls the "cutting edge" of research.
It might be more interesting to present an analysis of the adjectives
applied to kings' kinfolk by different monarchs at different times or in
various political or personal circumstances: at what rank or degree of
closeness, for instance, can "carissimus" be expected in Richard II's
correspondence?
Your "research" into this as presented so far is entirely a haphazard
affair, based on an untested (and perhaps systematically untestable) theory,
supported only by disconnected & apparently random examples.
By Richard II's time it would be more of a surprise to find that these men
were NOT so closely related. As to this being somehow a "determination" of
yours, that is surely a bizarre way to describe finding some factoid that
has been public knowledge for six centuries.
It might be more enlightening to the newsgroup to learn where you think this
erratic & occasional line of enquiry might be leading, and why.
You might begin by analysing all the letters from Richard II to his KNOWN
kinfolk, including Olaf; then do the same for other English kings. But then
we still won't know enough to postulate a particular degree of relationship
to any other "consanguineus" who can't be placed in the established
genealogical scheme. So that is where any real work on this subject will
begin. You are nowhere near there yet.
Peter Stewart
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1125085460.941220.293890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've been enjoying reading through a most interesting volume, The
Diplomatic Correspondence of Richard II, edited by Eduoard Perroy
(Camden Soc. 3rd ser. 48) (1933). The book contains
abstracts/transcripts of some 252 original letters of King Richard II
written in his name and sent to foreign courts, 28 of which only have
been previously printed elsewhere.
28 of which only HAD been previously printed - you are writing about a book
published 72 years ago, not current news. This is definitely NOT what
Brandon so peculiarly calls the "cutting edge" of research.
Included on page 31 in this volume is a brief letter from King Richard
II of England to one to his "kinsman" [consanguineo nostro carissimo],
Olaf VI, King of Norway dated 1378/1385.
It might be more interesting to present an analysis of the adjectives
applied to kings' kinfolk by different monarchs at different times or in
various political or personal circumstances: at what rank or degree of
closeness, for instance, can "carissimus" be expected in Richard II's
correspondence?
I was not aware that King Richard II was near related in any manner to
King Olaf VI. However, based on my research into such kinships, one
should expect for such a kinship to fall within the fifth degree on at
least one side.
Your "research" into this as presented so far is entirely a haphazard
affair, based on an untested (and perhaps systematically untestable) theory,
supported only by disconnected & apparently random examples.
Does such a kinship exist?
Studying the families involved, I've determined that yes, King Richard
II of England and King Olaf VI of Norway were in fact related in the
5th and 6th degrees of kindred by way of common descent from King Henry
III of England.
By Richard II's time it would be more of a surprise to find that these men
were NOT so closely related. As to this being somehow a "determination" of
yours, that is surely a bizarre way to describe finding some factoid that
has been public knowledge for six centuries.
Comments are invited.
It might be more enlightening to the newsgroup to learn where you think this
erratic & occasional line of enquiry might be leading, and why.
You might begin by analysing all the letters from Richard II to his KNOWN
kinfolk, including Olaf; then do the same for other English kings. But then
we still won't know enough to postulate a particular degree of relationship
to any other "consanguineus" who can't be placed in the established
genealogical scheme. So that is where any real work on this subject will
begin. You are nowhere near there yet.
Peter Stewart