CP funny - Lord Howth

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Leo van de Pas

CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 24 aug 2005 01:00:02

In CP Volume VI pages 607 and 608 we have Christopher St.Lawrence, Lord Howth.
He died at Howth 24 October 1619 and was buried there 19 January 1619/1620.

As he died in 1619, surely he was buried in 1620, but why that long delay? Almost three months later. As he was buried in the place he died, that makes it even more strange.
Would anyone know why?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra

John Brandon

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 aug 2005 13:53:33

Permafrost. It's cold that time of year in the northern hemisphere,
you know --

Peter Stewart

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24 aug 2005 14:10:21

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124888013.234069.134920@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Permafrost. It's cold that time of year in the northern hemisphere,
you know --

Rubbish - the winter of 1619/20 was the famous season of the Winter King,
not one of the most extreme around that time of bitterly cold winters. But
Howth died in October, and the ground was certainly not frozen too solid for
digging a grave nor were the roads impassable for the travel of mourners in
mid-autumn.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 aug 2005 14:18:17

Once again, Peter dear, you fail to recognize a joke while reading it.

If you are this deadly-serious and lacking in humor just after a
vacation, one wonders what you are like when you are hard at work doing
.... whatever it is you do. Whatever IS it that you do, by the way?

Gjest

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 aug 2005 20:09:07

When Howth was buried, the date was recorded as 19 Jan 1619. Before
England went to the Gregorian calendar in 1752, the year began on March
25. CP and many others give both years for dates between Jan 1 and Mar
25, so we don't get confused.

As for the delay, there could be any number of reasons. CP offers no
explanation?

Cece

Peter Stewart

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24 aug 2005 23:04:42

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124889497.121346.239540@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Once again, Peter dear, you fail to recognize a joke while reading it.

If you are this deadly-serious and lacking in humor just after a
vacation, one wonders what you are like when you are hard at work doing
... whatever it is you do. Whatever IS it that you do, by the way?

I reply to inane posts like this one of yours, to ensure that dishones,
self-serving and plain stupid nonsense is not left unchallenged on the
record.

Jokes are meant to be FUNNY. Yours aren't.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 24 aug 2005 23:17:42

Sounds like "Peter Stewart" needs a vacation to get over his vacation.

DR

Peter Stewart wrote:
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124889497.121346.239540@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Once again, Peter dear, you fail to recognize a joke while reading it.

If you are this deadly-serious and lacking in humor just after a
vacation, one wonders what you are like when you are hard at work doing
... whatever it is you do. Whatever IS it that you do, by the way?

I reply to inane posts like this one of yours, to ensure that dishones,
self-serving and plain stupid nonsense is not left unchallenged on the
record.

Jokes are meant to be FUNNY. Yours aren't.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 aug 2005 23:18:00

Jokes are meant to be FUNNY. Yours aren't.

Slightly funnier than endless ill-tempered belittling of people, I
guess.

pj.evans

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av pj.evans » 24 aug 2005 23:24:20

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
In CP Volume VI pages 607 and 608 we have Christopher St.Lawrence, Lord Howth.
He died at Howth 24 October 1619 and was buried there 19 January 1619/1620.

As he died in 1619, surely he was buried in 1620, but why that long delay? Almost three months later. As he was buried in the place he died, that makes it even more strange.
Would anyone know why?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra

I have a similar situation: Jerome Weston died 31 Dec 1603 and was
buried three weeks later. I don't know if he died where he was buried,
but I was considering bad weather as the reason for the delay (snow,
ice, floods, something like that). Permafrost doesn't seem to be the
answer here - the Little Ice Age wasn't around at the time.

Peter Stewart

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24 aug 2005 23:32:41

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124921880.043666.246990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jokes are meant to be FUNNY. Yours aren't.

Slightly funnier than endless ill-tempered belittling of people, I
guess.

More blatant rubbish - Brandon can't take criticism, and tries to spread the
burden by pretending that his critics are nasty, vicious offenders. This is
plainly untrue - Leo, Tony Ingram and I patently do not attack people
haphazardly or from vapid conceit. We do not, for instance, like Brandon
himself, demand from wounded conceit that distinguished editors should move
aside because of ill-health when really meaning because they don't pander to
us; and we don't dismiss whole issues of NEHGR as being "of little interest"
just because our own needs and prejudices are not the editor's main purpose
in life.

And we don't constantly post high-camp twitterings and transparently gay
sniping, again like Brandon trying desperately to feminise male posters who
cross him in any way.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 aug 2005 23:46:48

Leo just likes to have someone who's 'evil' to increase his own
self-satisfaction by contrast. I guess I've taken over the role of DHS
in his mind.

Peter Stewart

Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24 aug 2005 23:58:34

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124923608.342906.122150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Leo just likes to have someone who's 'evil' to increase his own
self-satisfaction by contrast. I guess I've taken over the role of DHS
in his mind.

More utter rubbish - Leo is generous and balanced in his work as in his
messages to the newsgroup.

Brandon and Richardson on the other hand are a pair of unbalanced, rancorous
hypocrites.

No-one else is fooled by their attempts to shift blame for threads that they
tiresomely corrupt, by always refusing to accept criticism or correction
when they are wrong.

Leo, by stark contrast, welcomes and graciously accepts corrections.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 aug 2005 00:07:45

We do not, for instance, like Brandon himself, demand from wounded conceit
that distinguished editors should move aside because of ill-health

when really meaning because they don't pander to us; and we don't
dismiss whole issues of NEHGR as being "of little interest" just
because our own needs and prejudices are not the editor's main purpose
in life.

When his "independent journal" is on precarious financial footing
anyway (and has been for years), it is simply foolish of him (in
whatever state of health) to let it get so terminally behind schedule.
Others are younger and better able to do the work.

NEHGR _has_ been very dull lately (and I think Leslie agrees with me on
this). Too many dry continued series that seem to have been planned to
keep the editor's work to a minimum (while he is busy submitting long
articles to TAG, I've noticed).

Now, maybe TAG could take over a few of the continued series from
NEHGR, and pass along some of the cutting-edge discoveries to Henry
Hoff. Everyone'd be a winner! ...

It's sensible, hence unlikely.

John Brandon

Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 aug 2005 00:09:28

Leo, by stark contrast, welcomes and graciously accepts corrections.

Ooooh, what a pure, saintly being. I'd like to meet him one day.

John Brandon

Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 aug 2005 00:16:25

I see all Richardson's messages but, thank goodness, I am spared those of Brandon as he is killfiled.

You could have fooled me by the number of my things you've responded to.

Leo van de Pas

OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 aug 2005 00:22:01

John Brandon is too viscious to be able to be funny, if he cannot cut he
doesn't think it funny. Amazing how the nastiest person on gen-med for years
(American Hines) is outdone by the most viscous, makes you wonder what they
put in the water in Amcerica.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: CP funny - Lord Howth


"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124889497.121346.239540@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Once again, Peter dear, you fail to recognize a joke while reading it.

If you are this deadly-serious and lacking in humor just after a
vacation, one wonders what you are like when you are hard at work doing
... whatever it is you do. Whatever IS it that you do, by the way?

I reply to inane posts like this one of yours, to ensure that dishones,
self-serving and plain stupid nonsense is not left unchallenged on the
record.

Jokes are meant to be FUNNY. Yours aren't.

Peter Stewart


Leo van de Pas

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 aug 2005 00:41:02

Three weeks seems excessive, but three months? With three weeks, bad
weather, transport of a body, waiting for appropriate relatives to arrive,
all kinds of delays. But three months when at least transport was not an
issue as he died in the place he was buried. Surely they did not forget him
for awhile :-) ?
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "pj.evans" <pj.evans.gen@usa.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: CP funny - Lord Howth


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
In CP Volume VI pages 607 and 608 we have Christopher St.Lawrence, Lord
Howth.
He died at Howth 24 October 1619 and was buried there 19 January
1619/1620.

As he died in 1619, surely he was buried in 1620, but why that long
delay? Almost three months later. As he was buried in the place he died,
that makes it even more strange.
Would anyone know why?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra

I have a similar situation: Jerome Weston died 31 Dec 1603 and was
buried three weeks later. I don't know if he died where he was buried,
but I was considering bad weather as the reason for the delay (snow,
ice, floods, something like that). Permafrost doesn't seem to be the
answer here - the Little Ice Age wasn't around at the time.


Leo van de Pas

Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 aug 2005 01:07:02

It would be so nice if either Richardson of Brandon for once would address
the matter concerned and forget about the sniping. I see all Richardson's
messages but, thank goodness, I am spared those of Brandon as he is
killfiled. What filters through, like through messages as this, tells me
enough that he is a waste of time.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: OT Re: CP funny - Lord Howth


"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124923608.342906.122150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Leo just likes to have someone who's 'evil' to increase his own
self-satisfaction by contrast. I guess I've taken over the role of DHS
in his mind.

More utter rubbish - Leo is generous and balanced in his work as in his
messages to the newsgroup.

Brandon and Richardson on the other hand are a pair of unbalanced,
rancorous hypocrites.

No-one else is fooled by their attempts to shift blame for threads that
they tiresomely corrupt, by always refusing to accept criticism or
correction when they are wrong.

Leo, by stark contrast, welcomes and graciously accepts corrections.

Peter Stewart


Gjest

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 aug 2005 01:36:02

Dear Peter, Leo, Douglas and others,
Was this Lord Howth a
Catholic who had been excommunicated ? In September of 1513, following James
IV, King of Scots` death in battle at Flodden Field, Queen Katherine of
Aragon, acting as regent during King Henry VIII`s absence, He then being in France
refused to return his body to the Scots for burial because as a excommunicate
(the Pope Henry VIII was adhering to did this because He sided with France and
invaded England) He could not be buried in hallowed ground, so She had the
body embalmed and sent to a store house, where it was forgotten. Some time later
(probably before his Great Grandson James VI`s ascension to England`s throne)
a physician decapitated the body and kept James IV`s head as a curiousity.
Given the demand for mummy about that time, the body may well have been ground
up and sold as medicine as so many Egyptian mummies were.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ginny Wagner

RE: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 25 aug 2005 01:36:02

<Jerome Weston died 31 Dec 1603 and was
buried three weeks later.>

Was just reading about noble burials and how Walden Priory acquired
the body of its patron Geoffrey III de Mandeville, earl of Essex ...
that the earl's knights provided an armed escort for the corpse from
Chester to Walden in order to prevent the dead earl's mother having it
[the body] seized and buried at her foundation of Chicksands. This
though he died, 1144, excommunicate! ... per page 329 of Power, The
Norman Frontier ...

Evidently one royal burial attracted others ... You bury an earl, his
wife and children want to be near him when dead so they give gifts to
see that the foundation stays active both to care for the gravesite
and so it will be there when they join their ancestor. I imagine,
too, it was much like Mercedes being able to say that so and so drives
their car ...

Now, I can imagine how, in an atmosphere wherein competition was
vicious over money and members, a body could be fought over ... even
in the courts, etc. ... before putting the body in the ground! With
that in mind, three weeks doesn't sound so long, especially if Weston
was a nobleman. ;-) Ginny

Luke Potter

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Luke Potter » 25 aug 2005 09:54:01

This string (or at least the bits which actually try to talk about the
topic...) reminded me of the will of Fulk Eyton dated 8th Feb
1451/1452 in which he held the bones of the late John, 14th Earl of
Arundel hostage:

"Also I woll that my Lord of Arundell that now is aggre and compoune
with you my seide Executours for the bon [bones] of my Lord John his
brother that I broughte oute of France for the which carriage of bon
and oute of the frenchemennys handes delyveraunce he owith me a ml
marc and iiijc and aftere myn Executours byn compounded with I woll
that the bon ben buried in the Collage of Arundell after his intent."

John had died in 1435 and initially been buried at Beauvais.
Apparently CP makes a reference to his later reburial at Arundel but I
don't have access to vol 1 - does anyone have it to hand? It would be
interesting to see what they state about the reburial.

Luke Potter

Gjest

Re: CP funny - Lord Howth

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 aug 2005 11:48:02

Luke Potter writes:

John had died in 1435 and initially been buried at Beauvais.
Apparently CP makes a reference to his later reburial at Arundel but I
don't have access to vol 1 - does anyone have it to hand? It would be
interesting to see what they state about the reburial.


Vol I page 248
"The Earl . . was carried to Beauvais, where his leg was amputated. He d.
there a few weeks afterwards, 12 June 1435, and was bur. in the Grey Friars
there, though, in accordance with his will dat. 8 Apr. 1430, pr. 15 Feb.
1435/6, his body was reinterred in a noble tomb at Arundel (f)"

footnote (f):

He was a dashing partisan leader, standing over 6ft high, equally brilliant
in tournaments and in real war. He was known as the English Achilles, and
indeed "Impiger, iracundus, inexorabilis, acer" seems very fairly to
describe him. Polydor Vergil calls him "a man of singular valour, constancy,
and gravity" V.G.

and that's it - no hint of animal activists or others being involved in the
reburial

cheers

Simon

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