Can anyone help me with this:
Did Alfosno VI de Castilla have a daughter named Sancha that married Rodrigo
Gonzalez de Lara? Where further concern comes in is that Sancha's mother is
listed as Zaida aka Isabel, my understanding is that Zaida never existed or
there is no proof...
Other wives, or mistresses, of Alfonso VI that I have come across are:
Elizabeth of France, Agnes of Aquitaine, Agatha, Constance de Bourgogne, and
Jimena Nunes de Lara. Are these accurate?
Denise D'Antona
Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
If you go to my website http://www.genealogics.org and enter in the Quick
Search the name of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, then press on his wife Sancha
then on the bottom of her page you will see some sources. One, Turton,
regard that only as a guide.
Hope that helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <TARA1197@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:53 AM
Subject: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
Search the name of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, then press on his wife Sancha
then on the bottom of her page you will see some sources. One, Turton,
regard that only as a guide.
Hope that helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <TARA1197@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:53 AM
Subject: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
Can anyone help me with this:
Did Alfosno VI de Castilla have a daughter named Sancha that married
Rodrigo
Gonzalez de Lara? Where further concern comes in is that Sancha's mother
is
listed as Zaida aka Isabel, my understanding is that Zaida never existed
or
there is no proof...
Other wives, or mistresses, of Alfonso VI that I have come across are:
Elizabeth of France, Agnes of Aquitaine, Agatha, Constance de Bourgogne,
and
Jimena Nunes de Lara. Are these accurate?
Denise D'Antona
-
Gjest
Re: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
Thank you Leo, I will look at the pages you mentioned.
Denise D'Antona
In a message dated 8/21/2005 5:02:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
If you go to my website http://www.genealogics.org and enter in the Quick
Search the name of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, then press on his wife Sancha
then on the bottom of her page you will see some sources. One, Turton,
regard that only as a guide.
Hope that helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Denise D'Antona
In a message dated 8/21/2005 5:02:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
If you go to my website http://www.genealogics.org and enter in the Quick
Search the name of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, then press on his wife Sancha
then on the bottom of her page you will see some sources. One, Turton,
regard that only as a guide.
Hope that helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
<TARA1197@aol.com> wrote in message news:1c6.2f206883.303a43d2@aol.com...
Yes.
Zaida-Isabella existed - there is no proof of her parentage of her marriage
to Alfonso VI, but she was certainly his mistress and parhaps became his
wife at some stage after the birth of their son. Her daughters Sancha and
Elvira (first wife of Roger the Great of Sicily) were both born before 1104;
their full-brother Sancho was born ca 1091/3 while his father was definitely
still married to a queen named Berta.
His first marriage was to Agnes of Aquitaine in 1069. He repudiated her,
apparently after 27 June 1080, and on 8 May 1081 he was remarried to
Constance of Burgundy. During this time he had as mistress a lady named
Jimena Munoz, whose father Muno is not certainly identified as far as I
know. Queen Constance was dead before 22 November 1093 and in December 1094
Alfonso married Berta, whose background is not definitely known (it has
been conjectured that she was a daughter of Margrav e Azzo II of Este by
Gersende of Maine). Berta died on 25 January 1100, after which Alfonso may
have married his mistress Zaida-Isabella. If so, she died before him as he
later had a wife named Beatrice, about whose background nothing is recorded.
Peter Stewart
Can anyone help me with this:
Did Alfosno VI de Castilla have a daughter named Sancha that married
Rodrigo
Gonzalez de Lara?
Yes.
Where further concern comes in is that Sancha's mother is listed as
Zaida aka
Isabel, my understanding is that Zaida never existed or there is no
proof...
Zaida-Isabella existed - there is no proof of her parentage of her marriage
to Alfonso VI, but she was certainly his mistress and parhaps became his
wife at some stage after the birth of their son. Her daughters Sancha and
Elvira (first wife of Roger the Great of Sicily) were both born before 1104;
their full-brother Sancho was born ca 1091/3 while his father was definitely
still married to a queen named Berta.
Other wives, or mistresses, of Alfonso VI that I have come across are:
Elizabeth of France, Agnes of Aquitaine, Agatha, Constance de Bourgogne,
and
Jimena Nunes de Lara. Are these accurate?
His first marriage was to Agnes of Aquitaine in 1069. He repudiated her,
apparently after 27 June 1080, and on 8 May 1081 he was remarried to
Constance of Burgundy. During this time he had as mistress a lady named
Jimena Munoz, whose father Muno is not certainly identified as far as I
know. Queen Constance was dead before 22 November 1093 and in December 1094
Alfonso married Berta, whose background is not definitely known (it has
been conjectured that she was a daughter of Margrav e Azzo II of Este by
Gersende of Maine). Berta died on 25 January 1100, after which Alfonso may
have married his mistress Zaida-Isabella. If so, she died before him as he
later had a wife named Beatrice, about whose background nothing is recorded.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Sancha - daughter of Alfonso VI of Castilla
Peter Stewart wrote:
.. . . but most lines that trace to her are flawed. Nat and I looked
into her descent and found, after five generation, just one documented
descendant, (IIRC) a Juan Lopez de Haro. The supposed son of Sancha,
Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara, was a genealogical invention of Luis Salazar
y Castro, writing about 1700, in order to connect two apparent Rodriguez
de Lara heiresses a generation later back to Rodrigo Gonzalez. Evidence
has since surfaced that they were not Lara descendants at all, but
rather daughters of a Rodrigo Fernandez de Toroño.
This isn't quite right. Zaida, baptized as Isabella, was the mother of
Sancho, illegitimate son of King Alfonso, born during his marriage to
Bertha, as you have indicated. Sancha and Elvira, however, are reported
as legitimate daughters of Alfonso, born by his wife Queen Isabella (by
the same source that names Zaida - it names his wives and thir children
including Isabella having Elvira and Sancha, and it then names his
mistresses and their children, including Zaida/Isabella having Sancho,
without giving any indication that the two were the same woman). It is
only if Queen Isabella was identical to Zaida/Isabella that these
Infantas are full siblings of Sancho.
Prior to this, he is reported by Orderic (IIRC) to have been espoused to
Agatha, daughter of William the Conqueror, but she was so aghast at
marrying a barbarian that she died in a funk prior to the wedding - that
is the Agatha above.
She does appear in what appears to be a family donation with a Munio
Muñoz, who was interpreted by one author to be her father, but by others
be her brother. By her, Alfonso had (another) Elvira, wife of Raymond
IV of Toulouse then of Count Fernando Fernandez (and ancestress by the
latter of Sancha de Ayala) and Teresa, wife of Henry of Burgundy, Count
of Portugal.
It has been speculated by Canal-Sanchez Pagin that her father was a
Count Munio Gonzalez, based on the statement that she was from one of
the foremost families in the Kingdom, followed by process of elimination
among the available Munios.
Traditional pedigrees make her kin to the Guzman, who in separate
pedigrees are traced fromt he Lara, hence she is the "Jimena Nuñez de
Lara" above (Nuñez and Muñoz being distinct names, but mistakenly
thought by later historians to be the same). Not entirely independent
of this tradition, the Vajay charts suggest that Count Munio Gonzalez
(ala Canal) was likewise father of Gonzalo Nuñez de Lara, making her
aunt of Rodrigo and Pedro Gonzalez de Lara. This has never been
published with a detailed explanation of the reasoning, and the ancestry
of Gonzalo Nuñez is another quagmire.
New to me. She has also been conjectured to be a Burgundian (county,
not duchy) and an Aquitinian (or should that be Aquitainite).
Alfonso married _an_ Isabella in 1102, and she appears as queen in 17
documents through 1106. Her (apparently non-contemporary) funerary
stone calls her daughter of Louis of France (hence she is the 'Elizabeth
of France' named above, Isabella and Elizabeth being alternative forms
of the same name), but this is chronologically impossible as well as
there being no French mention of this seemingly noteworthy union. It
has been suggested that she may have been Louis' god-daughter. Again,
Burgundy and Aquitaine have been tapped as possible origins. Likewise,
it has been suggested that she might have been Zaida.
In yet another hypothesis, based on a document of Mar. 1106 which
reports "regnante rege illdefonso in legione eiusdemque helisabet regina
sub maritali copula legaliter aderente" suggested to Reilly that the
king had recently married a former mistress, and thus there were two
successive Isabellas: first the 'Queen Isabella', mother of the two
daughters, married in 1102, then Zaida/Isabella - the Helisabet of 1106.
However, this explanation requires a divorce from one Isabella to
marry the other (perhaps) as the 'French' Isabella is said to have died
in 1107 (on the same memorial stone that makes her daughter of Louis).
In November of 1107 (a corrupt and poorly dated document), an Isabella
last appears as queen. Beatrice was queen by May, 1108. She is said to
be French by a late writer, and a near-contemporary indicates that she
survived Alfonso and went back to her home country.
taf
TARA1197@aol.com> wrote in message news:1c6.2f206883.303a43d2@aol.com...
Can anyone help me with this:
Did Alfosno VI de Castilla have a daughter named Sancha that married
Rodrigo
Gonzalez de Lara?
Yes.
.. . . but most lines that trace to her are flawed. Nat and I looked
into her descent and found, after five generation, just one documented
descendant, (IIRC) a Juan Lopez de Haro. The supposed son of Sancha,
Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara, was a genealogical invention of Luis Salazar
y Castro, writing about 1700, in order to connect two apparent Rodriguez
de Lara heiresses a generation later back to Rodrigo Gonzalez. Evidence
has since surfaced that they were not Lara descendants at all, but
rather daughters of a Rodrigo Fernandez de Toroño.
Where further concern comes in is that Sancha's mother is listed as
Zaida aka
Isabel, my understanding is that Zaida never existed or there is no
proof...
Zaida-Isabella existed - there is no proof of her parentage of her marriage
to Alfonso VI, but she was certainly his mistress and parhaps became his
wife at some stage after the birth of their son. Her daughters Sancha and
Elvira (first wife of Roger the Great of Sicily) were both born before 1104;
their full-brother Sancho was born ca 1091/3 while his father was definitely
still married to a queen named Berta.
This isn't quite right. Zaida, baptized as Isabella, was the mother of
Sancho, illegitimate son of King Alfonso, born during his marriage to
Bertha, as you have indicated. Sancha and Elvira, however, are reported
as legitimate daughters of Alfonso, born by his wife Queen Isabella (by
the same source that names Zaida - it names his wives and thir children
including Isabella having Elvira and Sancha, and it then names his
mistresses and their children, including Zaida/Isabella having Sancho,
without giving any indication that the two were the same woman). It is
only if Queen Isabella was identical to Zaida/Isabella that these
Infantas are full siblings of Sancho.
Other wives, or mistresses, of Alfonso VI that I have come across are:
Elizabeth of France, Agnes of Aquitaine, Agatha, Constance de Bourgogne,
and
Jimena Nunes de Lara. Are these accurate?
His first marriage was to Agnes of Aquitaine in 1069.
Prior to this, he is reported by Orderic (IIRC) to have been espoused to
Agatha, daughter of William the Conqueror, but she was so aghast at
marrying a barbarian that she died in a funk prior to the wedding - that
is the Agatha above.
He repudiated her,
apparently after 27 June 1080, and on 8 May 1081 he was remarried to
Constance of Burgundy. During this time he had as mistress a lady named
Jimena Munoz, whose father Muno is not certainly identified as far as I
know.
She does appear in what appears to be a family donation with a Munio
Muñoz, who was interpreted by one author to be her father, but by others
be her brother. By her, Alfonso had (another) Elvira, wife of Raymond
IV of Toulouse then of Count Fernando Fernandez (and ancestress by the
latter of Sancha de Ayala) and Teresa, wife of Henry of Burgundy, Count
of Portugal.
It has been speculated by Canal-Sanchez Pagin that her father was a
Count Munio Gonzalez, based on the statement that she was from one of
the foremost families in the Kingdom, followed by process of elimination
among the available Munios.
Traditional pedigrees make her kin to the Guzman, who in separate
pedigrees are traced fromt he Lara, hence she is the "Jimena Nuñez de
Lara" above (Nuñez and Muñoz being distinct names, but mistakenly
thought by later historians to be the same). Not entirely independent
of this tradition, the Vajay charts suggest that Count Munio Gonzalez
(ala Canal) was likewise father of Gonzalo Nuñez de Lara, making her
aunt of Rodrigo and Pedro Gonzalez de Lara. This has never been
published with a detailed explanation of the reasoning, and the ancestry
of Gonzalo Nuñez is another quagmire.
Queen Constance was dead before 22 November 1093 and in December 1094
Alfonso married Berta, whose background is not definitely known (it has
been conjectured that she was a daughter of Margrav e Azzo II of Este by
Gersende of Maine).
New to me. She has also been conjectured to be a Burgundian (county,
not duchy) and an Aquitinian (or should that be Aquitainite).
Berta died on 25 January 1100, after which Alfonso may
have married his mistress Zaida-Isabella. If so, she died before him as he
later had a wife named Beatrice, about whose background nothing is recorded.
Alfonso married _an_ Isabella in 1102, and she appears as queen in 17
documents through 1106. Her (apparently non-contemporary) funerary
stone calls her daughter of Louis of France (hence she is the 'Elizabeth
of France' named above, Isabella and Elizabeth being alternative forms
of the same name), but this is chronologically impossible as well as
there being no French mention of this seemingly noteworthy union. It
has been suggested that she may have been Louis' god-daughter. Again,
Burgundy and Aquitaine have been tapped as possible origins. Likewise,
it has been suggested that she might have been Zaida.
In yet another hypothesis, based on a document of Mar. 1106 which
reports "regnante rege illdefonso in legione eiusdemque helisabet regina
sub maritali copula legaliter aderente" suggested to Reilly that the
king had recently married a former mistress, and thus there were two
successive Isabellas: first the 'Queen Isabella', mother of the two
daughters, married in 1102, then Zaida/Isabella - the Helisabet of 1106.
However, this explanation requires a divorce from one Isabella to
marry the other (perhaps) as the 'French' Isabella is said to have died
in 1107 (on the same memorial stone that makes her daughter of Louis).
In November of 1107 (a corrupt and poorly dated document), an Isabella
last appears as queen. Beatrice was queen by May, 1108. She is said to
be French by a late writer, and a near-contemporary indicates that she
survived Alfonso and went back to her home country.
taf