Friday, 19 August, 2005
Dear Jeff,
Thanks for that interesting post. From the information you've
provided, it would appear quite likely that Dionisia/Denise, widow
of Thomas de Normanville, was a daughter of Sir Robert de Daiville
(or d'Eyville), of Egmanton, Notts., Adlingfleet & c., co. Yorks.
(d. after May 1242) by his wife Denise/Dionysia, daughter of Sir
Thomas fitz William of Sprotborough, co. Yorks. (d. aft 25 June
1259) [CP IV:131, and notes, sub _Deiville_]. This would make
Dionisia a granddaughter of Maud de Percy, which would explain the
Percy arms. Although the heraldic basis for using the Percy arms
in the seal is weak or non-existent, a personal preference for
same would be understandable on Dionisia's part.
~ I am not aware of the name Margaret appearing earlier in
the Deiville family, but Denise (dau. of Thomas fitz
William) certainly had a sister Margaret.
The chronology certainly works, and the appearance of the name
Dionisia in the Deiville family with the marriage in question
certainly fits. The Deiville arms were shown somewhat different
soon thereafter: the Falkirk roll gives the arms of Sir John
d'Eiville (d. ca. 1325) as " Or a fess gules all semy de lis
counterchanged " (Falkirk Roll, H104).
Looking forward to hearing of a solution for the source of
"3 mullets of six points within a border engrailed" in the seal
- I wonder if these would be the arms of the mother of Thomas
de Normanville?
Cheers,
John
re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Jeffery A. Duvall
Re: re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d.
John,
The VCH Rutland (vol. 2, p. 244), places Margaret de Normanville (d. ca.
1341) as the daughter of Thomas de Normanville (ca. 1257-1282), but after
reading Blore again I find that he places her as the daughter of Thomas'
brother Ralph de Normanville (b. ca. 1258/60 d. aft. 1282). According to
Blore the IPM of Margaret's (first) husband, Sir William de Basynges (d.
1316), taken in Rutland, describes her as being "of the age of 30 years."
(p. 126). If this can be taken to mean that she was 30 in 1316 then Blore
must be right and her father was actually Ralph -- if it simply means that
she was more than 30 she could indeed be the daughter of his older brother
Thomas. In either case, however, she's identified as Denise/Dionisia's
daughter.
A second IPM (taken in Lincoln later that same year, 1316) specifically
states that Sir William de Basynges son and heir, (Sir) Thomas de Basynges
was age 15 so we can (safely I assume) place his birth year as ca. 1301.
VCH Rutland places the marriage between Margaret de Normanville and (Sir)
William de Basynges as taking place in 1297, and both Blore and VCH Rutland
indicate that Denise/Dionisia de Normanville was still alive in 1321. If
Denise/Dionisia was the daughter of Sir Robert Daiville/d'Eyville (d. aft.
May 1242) wouldn't she be a bit old to marry either Thomas (b. ca. 1257) or
Ralph (b. ca. 1258/60) de Normanville? I suppose it depends on just how
much after May 1242 Sir Robert actually died, but it seems a bit of stretch
to me. Chronologically it seems to me that she would more likely belong to
his grandchildren's generation. Or perhaps, she might belong to a
collateral line descending from one of his two younger brothers, Henry and
Joscelin. Is anything know about them and/or whether or not either of them
married, left children, etc.?
Ralph and Thomas de Normanville were, according to both Blore and the VCH
Rutland, the sons of Sir Ralph de Normanville (d. 1259/60) and his wife
Galiena (d. aft. 1261). The only information I can find on Galiena's family
is that a kinsman named Geoffrey Rawe (a Knight Templar) seems to have acted
to have her "exempted from suits of county, hundred and other courts for
three years" in 1261.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282) of
Empingham
The VCH Rutland (vol. 2, p. 244), places Margaret de Normanville (d. ca.
1341) as the daughter of Thomas de Normanville (ca. 1257-1282), but after
reading Blore again I find that he places her as the daughter of Thomas'
brother Ralph de Normanville (b. ca. 1258/60 d. aft. 1282). According to
Blore the IPM of Margaret's (first) husband, Sir William de Basynges (d.
1316), taken in Rutland, describes her as being "of the age of 30 years."
(p. 126). If this can be taken to mean that she was 30 in 1316 then Blore
must be right and her father was actually Ralph -- if it simply means that
she was more than 30 she could indeed be the daughter of his older brother
Thomas. In either case, however, she's identified as Denise/Dionisia's
daughter.
A second IPM (taken in Lincoln later that same year, 1316) specifically
states that Sir William de Basynges son and heir, (Sir) Thomas de Basynges
was age 15 so we can (safely I assume) place his birth year as ca. 1301.
VCH Rutland places the marriage between Margaret de Normanville and (Sir)
William de Basynges as taking place in 1297, and both Blore and VCH Rutland
indicate that Denise/Dionisia de Normanville was still alive in 1321. If
Denise/Dionisia was the daughter of Sir Robert Daiville/d'Eyville (d. aft.
May 1242) wouldn't she be a bit old to marry either Thomas (b. ca. 1257) or
Ralph (b. ca. 1258/60) de Normanville? I suppose it depends on just how
much after May 1242 Sir Robert actually died, but it seems a bit of stretch
to me. Chronologically it seems to me that she would more likely belong to
his grandchildren's generation. Or perhaps, she might belong to a
collateral line descending from one of his two younger brothers, Henry and
Joscelin. Is anything know about them and/or whether or not either of them
married, left children, etc.?
Ralph and Thomas de Normanville were, according to both Blore and the VCH
Rutland, the sons of Sir Ralph de Normanville (d. 1259/60) and his wife
Galiena (d. aft. 1261). The only information I can find on Galiena's family
is that a kinsman named Geoffrey Rawe (a Knight Templar) seems to have acted
to have her "exempted from suits of county, hundred and other courts for
three years" in 1261.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282) of
Empingham
Friday, 19 August, 2005
Dear Jeff,
Thanks for that interesting post. From the information you've
provided, it would appear quite likely that Dionisia/Denise, widow
of Thomas de Normanville, was a daughter of Sir Robert de Daiville
(or d'Eyville), of Egmanton, Notts., Adlingfleet & c., co. Yorks.
(d. after May 1242) by his wife Denise/Dionysia, daughter of Sir
Thomas fitz William of Sprotborough, co. Yorks. (d. aft 25 June
1259) [CP IV:131, and notes, sub _Deiville_]. This would make
Dionisia a granddaughter of Maud de Percy, which would explain the
Percy arms. Although the heraldic basis for using the Percy arms
in the seal is weak or non-existent, a personal preference for
same would be understandable on Dionisia's part.
~ I am not aware of the name Margaret appearing earlier in
the Deiville family, but Denise (dau. of Thomas fitz
William) certainly had a sister Margaret.
The chronology certainly works, and the appearance of the name
Dionisia in the Deiville family with the marriage in question
certainly fits. The Deiville arms were shown somewhat different
soon thereafter: the Falkirk roll gives the arms of Sir John
d'Eiville (d. ca. 1325) as " Or a fess gules all semy de lis
counterchanged " (Falkirk Roll, H104).
Looking forward to hearing of a solution for the source of
"3 mullets of six points within a border engrailed" in the seal
- I wonder if these would be the arms of the mother of Thomas
de Normanville?
Cheers,
John