Agnes Arundel

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charlotte Smith

Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av charlotte Smith » 20 aug 2005 01:37:02

the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes so I can identify these other women. All the Arundel website do not seem to give this information. I am sure someone in this group can supply the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net

Leo van de Pas

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 aug 2005 03:29:02

This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is Sir
William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a younger son
of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon and
she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do not have husbands
(as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out more. Sadly,
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William Arundel KG but does
not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "charlotte Smith" <charlotsmith@prodigy.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William Arundel KG
naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame Brien, Margaret
Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes so I can identify
these other women. All the Arundel website do not seem to give this
information. I am sure someone in this group can supply the name.
Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net



Louise Staley

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 20 aug 2005 05:09:16

Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of
Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing, Kent, she
m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron Arundel
and his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure. She m2 Sir
Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in question
is Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd Baron Cobham.
She had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir Reynold
Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in PA3 Cobham:
10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been single at the time
of the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to her
sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:
This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is Sir
William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a younger
son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon
and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do not have
husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out more.
Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William Arundel KG
but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William
Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame
Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes so
I can identify these other women. All the Arundel website do not seem
to give this information. I am sure someone in this group can supply
the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net

Gjest

re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2005 05:46:02

Dear Charlotte, Leo, et al.,

An interesting puzzle; thanks to Leo for the initial leads.

Following is what I've pieced together thus far; Agnes refers
to her sisters-in-law, Margaret Arundel (wife of Lord Ros) and
Margaret Cobham (half-sister of her late husband Sir William
Arundel) as sisters, as was customary.


1) John de = Eleanor = 2) Sir Reynold
Arundel I Mautravers I Cobham (d. 1403)
(d. 1379) I I
________I_________ I____________
I I I
Margaret William "Margaret
Arundel Arundel Cobham"
"Dame = Agnes (= Reginald
Ros" "Agnes Curteys)
= William, Arundel"
Lord Ros


The remaining piece - "Dame Brien" - will likely yield an
interesting identification or two if it can be solved. This
likely was Joan, widow of Sir William de Bryan (dsp 22 Sept
1395), son of Guy, Lord Bryan (d. 1390), for whom I know of no
surname. See CP under BRYAN (pp. 361-2).

Cheers,

John

Leo van de Pas

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 aug 2005 07:19:01

How dreadful!! You identified most and they are only sisters-in-law, shame,
pity.
Where do we go now? I received this superb book on the knights of the
Garter, but it is all about the Garter and little about the individuals. We
have to look elsewhere.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: re: Agnes Arundel


Dear Charlotte, Leo, et al.,

An interesting puzzle; thanks to Leo for the initial leads.

Following is what I've pieced together thus far; Agnes refers
to her sisters-in-law, Margaret Arundel (wife of Lord Ros) and
Margaret Cobham (half-sister of her late husband Sir William
Arundel) as sisters, as was customary.


1) John de = Eleanor = 2) Sir Reynold
Arundel I Mautravers I Cobham (d. 1403)
(d. 1379) I I
________I_________ I____________
I I I
Margaret William "Margaret
Arundel Arundel Cobham"
"Dame = Agnes (= Reginald
Ros" "Agnes Curteys)
= William, Arundel"
Lord Ros


The remaining piece - "Dame Brien" - will likely yield an
interesting identification or two if it can be solved. This
likely was Joan, widow of Sir William de Bryan (dsp 22 Sept
1395), son of Guy, Lord Bryan (d. 1390), for whom I know of no
surname. See CP under BRYAN (pp. 361-2).

Cheers,

John


Leo van de Pas

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 aug 2005 07:53:02

I am so glad I had to go out, now, between you and John Ravilious, part of
the hard work is done :-) The sad part is w3e can accept they were
sisters-in-law and that doesn't get us any closer to the identity of Agnes
:-(
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Louise Staley" <caramut@removethis.bigpond.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Agnes Arundel


Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of
Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing, Kent, she
m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron Arundel and
his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure. She m2 Sir
Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in question is
Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd Baron Cobham. She
had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir Reynold
Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in PA3 Cobham:
10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been single at the time of
the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to her
sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:
This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is Sir
William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a younger
son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon
and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do not have
husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out more.
Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William Arundel KG
but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William Arundel
KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame Brien,
Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes so I can
identify these other women. All the Arundel website do not seem to give
this information. I am sure someone in this group can supply the name.
Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net


Tony Ingham

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 20 aug 2005 10:53:01

Well done Louise,

Charlotte and I have been coming from a slightly different direction.

1. Sir William Rykhill + Rosa Medlan d. of Sir Thomas medlan and h.w.
Matilda
2. William Rykhill knight = Katherine
2. John Rykhill
2. Thomas Rykhill
2. Nicholas Rykhill
2. Matilda = Richard Gylle
3. Margaret
3. Elizabeth
2. Joan = William Chertsley
3. Joan

Agnes Arundel died 1401 Kent Wills

Legatees:

My mother
Sister Dame Rose (Medlan Rykhill)
Sister Dame Bryan
Brother Richard de Arundel
Sister Margery Cobham

Put them [all] together and that have you got [Bibbety bobbity boo]

Well done Charlotte.

Tony Ingham


Louise Staley wrote:

Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of
Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing, Kent,
she m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron Arundel
and his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure. She m2
Sir Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in
question is Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd
Baron Cobham. She had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir Reynold
Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in PA3
Cobham: 10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been single at
the time of the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to
her sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still
unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:

This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is
Sir William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a
younger son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of
Devon and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do
not have husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out more.
Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William Arundel
KG but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William
Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame
Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes
so I can identify these other women. All the Arundel website do not
seem to give this information. I am sure someone in this group can
supply the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net



Tony Ingham

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 20 aug 2005 11:59:02

To all interested in Arundell,


Re my previous mailing, please ignore all after "Well done Louise"

Half the posting was to go to Charlotte and the other to the list.

Charlotte got nothing and the List got rubbish.

My only real excuse was that I had been called to dinner and not wishing
to put myself at serious risk of permanent injury I sent off the message
in haste.

I dont know if there have been follow-up posts but it looks as though
Agnes was certainly married to a knightly Arundel as in her will
"pinguntur? figurem Domini mei et mee" indicated her husband a knight
predeceased her and their monument was already made.

As to Agnes' identity. We do know she predeceased her Mum. That must
narrow the field down a fair bit.

Best researching to all,

TonyIngham


Tony Ingham wrote:

Well done Louise,

Charlotte and I have been coming from a slightly different direction.

1. Sir William Rykhill + Rosa Medlan d. of Sir Thomas medlan and
h.w. Matilda
2. William Rykhill knight = Katherine
2. John Rykhill
2. Thomas Rykhill
2. Nicholas Rykhill
2. Matilda = Richard Gylle
3. Margaret
3. Elizabeth
2. Joan = William Chertsley
3. Joan

Agnes Arundel died 1401 Kent Wills

Legatees:

My mother Sister Dame Rose (Medlan Rykhill)
Sister Dame Bryan
Brother Richard de Arundel
Sister Margery Cobham

Put them [all] together and that have you got [Bibbety bobbity boo]

Well done Charlotte.

Tony Ingham


Louise Staley wrote:

Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of
Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing, Kent,
she m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron Arundel
and his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure. She m2
Sir Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in
question is Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd
Baron Cobham. She had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir Reynold
Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in PA3
Cobham: 10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been single
at the time of the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to
her sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still
unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:

This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is
Sir William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a
younger son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of
Devon and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do
not have husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out
more. Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William
Arundel KG but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William
Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame
Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes
so I can identify these other women. All the Arundel website do
not seem to give this information. I am sure someone in this group
can supply the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net






Greg Vaut

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Greg Vaut » 20 aug 2005 16:15:02

John,

Leo and others (Burke web site Norfolk family page, Genealogy.EU Arundel
2 page) show Margaret Arundel (m. William de Ros) to have been the grand
dau. of John d'Arundel and Eleanor Mautravers - i.e., dau. of his son
John and Eliz. le Despenser.

Can you cite the source for your alignment?

Thanks and regards,
Greg Vaut

Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Dear Charlotte, Leo, et al.,

An interesting puzzle; thanks to Leo for the initial leads.

Following is what I've pieced together thus far; Agnes refers
to her sisters-in-law, Margaret Arundel (wife of Lord Ros) and
Margaret Cobham (half-sister of her late husband Sir William
Arundel) as sisters, as was customary.


1) John de = Eleanor = 2) Sir Reynold
Arundel I Mautravers I Cobham (d. 1403)
(d. 1379) I I
________I_________ I____________
I I I
Margaret William "Margaret
Arundel Arundel Cobham"
"Dame = Agnes (= Reginald
Ros" "Agnes Curteys)
= William, Arundel"
Lord Ros


The remaining piece - "Dame Brien" - will likely yield an
interesting identification or two if it can be solved. This
likely was Joan, widow of Sir William de Bryan (dsp 22 Sept
1395), son of Guy, Lord Bryan (d. 1390), for whom I know of no
surname. See CP under BRYAN (pp. 361-2).

Cheers,

John




Louise Staley

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 20 aug 2005 23:15:59

From CP, in reference to Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of Helmsley, it says

"He married (licence 9 October 1394.) Margaret, daughter of Sir John DE
ARUNDEL [1st LORD ARUNDEL] (died 1379), by, Eleanor, younger daughter
and coheir of John (MAUTRAVERS), LORD MAUTRAVERS (died 1364), which
Eleanor, about 1397, became de jure, according to modern doctrine, suo
jure BARONESS MAUTRAVERS."

This is from Dave Ross's database
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... id=I018064
which cites CP XI: 102-3 and XIV: 553

Or for those with access to Plantagenet Ancestry by Richardson, see Roos: 11

regards
Louise

Greg Vaut wrote:
John,

Leo and others (Burke web site Norfolk family page, Genealogy.EU Arundel
2 page) show Margaret Arundel (m. William de Ros) to have been the grand
dau. of John d'Arundel and Eleanor Mautravers - i.e., dau. of his son
John and Eliz. le Despenser.

Can you cite the source for your alignment?

Thanks and regards,
Greg Vaut

Louise Staley

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 20 aug 2005 23:25:49

Tony,

I wonder if you haven't actually found Agnes? Are you suggesting from
this message that Agnes' mother was Rosa Medlan, "Dame Rose"? And how
have you linked her (Rose) to Agnes? Or am I on the wrong track here?

cheers
Louise

Tony Ingham wrote:
To all interested in Arundell,


Re my previous mailing, please ignore all after "Well done Louise"

Half the posting was to go to Charlotte and the other to the list.

Charlotte got nothing and the List got rubbish.

My only real excuse was that I had been called to dinner and not wishing
to put myself at serious risk of permanent injury I sent off the message
in haste.

I dont know if there have been follow-up posts but it looks as though
Agnes was certainly married to a knightly Arundel as in her will
"pinguntur? figurem Domini mei et mee" indicated her husband a knight
predeceased her and their monument was already made.

As to Agnes' identity. We do know she predeceased her Mum. That must
narrow the field down a fair bit.

Best researching to all,

TonyIngham


Tony Ingham wrote:

Well done Louise,

Charlotte and I have been coming from a slightly different direction.

1. Sir William Rykhill + Rosa Medlan d. of Sir Thomas medlan and
h.w. Matilda
2. William Rykhill knight = Katherine
2. John Rykhill
2. Thomas Rykhill
2. Nicholas Rykhill
2. Matilda = Richard Gylle
3. Margaret
3. Elizabeth
2. Joan = William Chertsley
3. Joan

Agnes Arundel died 1401 Kent Wills

Legatees:

My mother Sister Dame Rose (Medlan Rykhill)
Sister Dame Bryan
Brother Richard de Arundel
Sister Margery Cobham

Put them [all] together and that have you got [Bibbety bobbity boo]

Well done Charlotte.

Tony Ingham


Louise Staley wrote:

Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros of
Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing, Kent,
she m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron Arundel
and his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure. She m2
Sir Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in
question is Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd
Baron Cobham. She had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir Reynold
Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in PA3
Cobham: 10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been single
at the time of the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to
her sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still
unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:

This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86 is
Sir William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He is a
younger son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of
Devon and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I do
not have husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out
more. Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William
Arundel KG but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William
Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros, Dame
Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name of Agnes
so I can identify these other women. All the Arundel website do
not seem to give this information. I am sure someone in this group
can supply the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net








Tony Ingham

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 21 aug 2005 00:49:02

Hello Louise,

Firstly sorry for that dreadful mailing. Please ignore it entirely.

Agnes is the Lady Arundel who was invested with the Order of the Garter
in 1399. Margaret Arundel Ros was invested in that same year (possibly
at the same time).

All the best,

Tony.



Louise Staley wrote:

Tony,

I wonder if you haven't actually found Agnes? Are you suggesting from
this message that Agnes' mother was Rosa Medlan, "Dame Rose"? And how
have you linked her (Rose) to Agnes? Or am I on the wrong track here?

cheers
Louise

Tony Ingham wrote:

To all interested in Arundell,


Re my previous mailing, please ignore all after "Well done Louise"

Half the posting was to go to Charlotte and the other to the list.

Charlotte got nothing and the List got rubbish.

My only real excuse was that I had been called to dinner and not
wishing to put myself at serious risk of permanent injury I sent off
the message in haste.

I dont know if there have been follow-up posts but it looks as though
Agnes was certainly married to a knightly Arundel as in her will
"pinguntur? figurem Domini mei et mee" indicated her husband a knight
predeceased her and their monument was already made.

As to Agnes' identity. We do know she predeceased her Mum. That must
narrow the field down a fair bit.

Best researching to all,

TonyIngham


Tony Ingham wrote:

Well done Louise,

Charlotte and I have been coming from a slightly different direction.

1. Sir William Rykhill + Rosa Medlan d. of Sir Thomas medlan and
h.w. Matilda
2. William Rykhill knight = Katherine
2. John Rykhill
2. Thomas Rykhill
2. Nicholas Rykhill
2. Matilda = Richard Gylle
3. Margaret
3. Elizabeth
2. Joan = William Chertsley
3. Joan

Agnes Arundel died 1401 Kent Wills

Legatees:

My mother Sister Dame Rose (Medlan Rykhill)
Sister Dame Bryan
Brother Richard de Arundel
Sister Margery Cobham

Put them [all] together and that have you got [Bibbety bobbity boo]

Well done Charlotte.

Tony Ingham


Louise Staley wrote:

Dame Ros = Margaret Arundel wife of Sir William Ros 6th Baron Ros
of Helmsley

Dame Brien = Joan Arundel wife of Sir William Byan of Kemsing,
Kent, she m2 Sir William Echyngham

Margaret and Joan are daughters of Sir John Arundel 1st Baron
Arundel and his wife Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de
jure. She m2 Sir Reynold Cobham 2nd Baron Cobham of Sterborough

I must disagree with Leo. I don't think the Margaret Cobham in
question is Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir John Cobham K.G., 3rd
Baron Cobham. She had died in 1395.

Margaret Cobham is possibly, Margaret Cobham, daughter of Sir
Reynold Cobham and Eleanor Maltravers above who (according to DR in
PA3 Cobham: 10) married Reginald Curteys but may still have been
single at the time of the will.

I believe Agnes, widow of Sir William Arundel K.G., is referring to
her sisters-in-law in her will and therefore her identity is still
unknown.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas wrote:

This is a wonderful wildgoose chase---- I haven't given up as yet :-)


I have a great book on the Knights of the Garter and knight nr 86
is Sir William Arundel became a KG about 1395 and died in 1400. He
is a younger son of John Arundel Baron Mautravers and Eleanor
Mautravers.

"A" Margaret Cobham is daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd Earl of
Devon and she has (see my website) a string of sisters for whom I
do not have husbands (as yet).

I have to go out for a while but I do like tlo try and find out
more. Sadly, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 does mention Sir William
Arundel KG but does not indicate a wife.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
http://www.genealogics.org


----- Original Message ----- From: "charlotte Smith"
charlotsmith@prodigy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Agnes Arundel


the Kent wills for 1404 have an Agnes Arundel, widow of William
Arundel KG naming her sisters in the will. They are Dame Ros,
Dame Brien, Margaret Cobham. I cannot find out the maiden name
of Agnes so I can identify these other women. All the Arundel
website do not seem to give this information. I am sure someone
in this group can supply the name. Thanks.


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net











Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 aug 2005 10:27:13

In message of 20 Aug, nugget10@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote:

Hello Louise,

Firstly sorry for that dreadful mailing. Please ignore it entirely.

Agnes is the Lady Arundel who was invested with the Order of the Garter
in 1399.

<Nitpicking ON> Not quite. She was provided with Garter robes in
1399. No ladies were invested with the Order of the Garter in those
times. Ladies such as Agnes Arundel, wife of Wm KG, were referred to
as Ladies of the Garter, not one of the 25 Knights. The first
unequivocal lady who is a Knight and one of the 25 seems to me to be
Lady Thatcher, though I don't know if she puts KG after her name.
</Nitpicking OFF>

Margaret Arundel Ros was invested in that same year (possibly
at the same time).

<Same nitpick>

Refer to "The Order of the Garter", p. 172, by Grace Holmes, pub Windsor
1984.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tony Ingham

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 21 aug 2005 13:02:01

Hello Tim,

How about Lady Arundel L.G.?

Thanks for that amendment and the reference.

All the best,

Tony


Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 20 Aug, nugget10@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote:



Hello Louise,

Firstly sorry for that dreadful mailing. Please ignore it entirely.

Agnes is the Lady Arundel who was invested with the Order of the Garter
in 1399.



Nitpicking ON> Not quite. She was provided with Garter robes in
1399. No ladies were invested with the Order of the Garter in those
times. Ladies such as Agnes Arundel, wife of Wm KG, were referred to
as Ladies of the Garter, not one of the 25 Knights. The first
unequivocal lady who is a Knight and one of the 25 seems to me to be
Lady Thatcher, though I don't know if she puts KG after her name.
/Nitpicking OFF



Margaret Arundel Ros was invested in that same year (possibly
at the same time).



Same nitpick

Refer to "The Order of the Garter", p. 172, by Grace Holmes, pub Windsor
1984.



Leo van de Pas

Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 21 aug 2005 15:30:02

I know there is this list on the Internet which gives all those Ladies of
the Garter, but what did that mean? They were not knighted.........

In 1999 a book was published "The Most Noble Order of the Garter 650 years"
with a foreword by HRH the Duke of Edinburgh. In it is a great list of all
the knights of the Garter, all 987 of them, including Margaret Thatcher
(nr.980).

This book is by Peter J. Begent and Hubert Chesshyre and, apparently, you
can get it only at Windsor Castle. Apparently, you have to go there to get
it, as they don't post it, and it is quite expensive. Still, it is a superb
production with many pictures in it .

There is a page "Appendix B" The Ladies of the Garter, there are only 9
mentioned,
Queen Alexandra (in 1901) Queen Mary (in 1910), Queen (Mother) Elizabeth (in
1936), Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands (in 1944) Queen EWlizabeth II (in
1947) Queen Juliana of The Netherlands (in 1958) Queen Margarethe II of
Denmark (in 1979) Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands (in 1989) and Princess
Royal Anne (in 1994).

None of the ladies of that Internet list have a mention.................what
is the meaning of that list?.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ingham" <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Agnes Arundel


Hello Tim,

How about Lady Arundel L.G.?

Thanks for that amendment and the reference.

All the best,

Tony


Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 20 Aug, nugget10@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote:


Hello Louise,

Firstly sorry for that dreadful mailing. Please ignore it entirely.

Agnes is the Lady Arundel who was invested with the Order of the Garter
in 1399.


Nitpicking ON> Not quite. She was provided with Garter robes in
1399. No ladies were invested with the Order of the Garter in those
times. Ladies such as Agnes Arundel, wife of Wm KG, were referred to
as Ladies of the Garter, not one of the 25 Knights. The first
unequivocal lady who is a Knight and one of the 25 seems to me to be
Lady Thatcher, though I don't know if she puts KG after her name.
/Nitpicking OFF


Margaret Arundel Ros was invested in that same year (possibly
at the same time).


Same nitpick

Refer to "The Order of the Garter", p. 172, by Grace Holmes, pub Windsor
1984.




Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 21 aug 2005 18:20:18

Leo,

There were more than 9 ladies of the Garter. Katherine Swynford was
one in I think 1386/7, and her daughter Joan Beaufort followed later.
Cousin Agnes Chaucer was also a Lady of the Garter and I think I recall
reading somewhere that later ladies consulted her effigy/cadaver tomb
at Ewelme to learn how they should wear their garters. In Katherine's
case, we have the order to issue her robes, and Dugdale's drawing of
her and Joan's Lincoln Cathedral tombs shows enamelled indents on the
sides of the marble tombs.

Lady members were apparently admitted as early as 1358, beginning with
Philippa of Hainault, and originally were the wives/daughters of
original male companions.

As for their purpose, I'm not certain that anybody really knows. They
were accorded robes for the event but not stall-plates (obviously).
Perhaps they enjoyed the sort of spiritual benefits accorded by other
confraternities of the era.

Here's a link that, at the bottom of the page, lists the Ladies of the
Garter:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm

Kindest regards,

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 aug 2005 22:03:13

In message of 21 Aug, nugget10@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote:

Hello Tim,

How about Lady Arundel L.G.?

As the wife of a knight she would nowadays be "Lady Agnes Arundel" not
"Lady Arundel"; I have no idea what customs applied at those times,
though suspect she might have been "Dame".

As for "LG" after her name, that is a common practice nowadays but I
doubt it was used in her times. What "LG" means, I do not know;
official hanger-on at Garter ceremonies?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 aug 2005 22:21:02

In message of 21 Aug, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

I know there is this list on the Internet which gives all those
Ladies of the Garter, but what did that mean? They were not
knighted.........

In 1999 a book was published "The Most Noble Order of the Garter 650
years" with a foreword by HRH the Duke of Edinburgh. In it is a
great list of all the knights of the Garter, all 987 of them,
including Margaret Thatcher (nr.980).

This book is by Peter J. Begent and Hubert Chesshyre and, apparently,
you can get it only at Windsor Castle. Apparently, you have to go
there to get it, as they don't post it, and it is quite expensive.
Still, it is a superb production with many pictures in it .

There is a page "Appendix B" The Ladies of the Garter, there are only
9 mentioned, Queen Alexandra (in 1901) Queen Mary (in 1910), Queen
(Mother) Elizabeth (in 1936), Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands (in
1944) Queen EWlizabeth II (in 1947) Queen Juliana of The Netherlands (in
1958) Queen Margarethe II of Denmark (in 1979) Queen Beatrix of The
Netherlands (n 1989) and Princess Royal Anne (in 1994).

None of the ladies of that Internet list have a
mention.................what is the meaning of that list?.

Ladies of the Garter had lapsed around the time of Henry VIII and were
reintroduced by Edward VII. I do not know what their role or status
was, apart from being able to tog up in similar fancy clothes to all the
Knights of the Garter at the annual ceremonies.

The order of the Garter consists, at the core, of the Sovereign and 25
knights. Subsequently various additional categories have been added,
Sons of the Sovereign and Foreign Sovereigns; their numbers are
additional to the core 25. The Prince of Wales always used to be one of
the 25 core; not sure if the current PoW is now classed as a son of the
sovereign and thus in addition to the core 25.

But the remarkable development of the last 10 years has been the
addition of Lady Thatcher as one of the 25 core knights. Unless anyone
knows different? She does not seem to me to be in the category of
Ladies of the Garter, though in practice there is probably not much
difference.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2005 22:43:20

Baroness Thatcher is a Lady of the Order of the Order of the Garter,
one of three appointed since the Queen ordinary appointments to the
fairer sex a few years ago. The first was Lavinia, Duchess of Norfolk;
the third is Lady Soames. They use the postnominals L.G. and are
counted among the 25 Companions (the others, the Knights, are K.G.s).
Additionally, since Edward VII appointed Queen Alexandra to the Order,
there are Royal Ladies who are members, e.g. the Princess Royal,
Princess Alexandra of Kent, the Queens of Denmark and of the
Netherlands. They are extra members, but full members nevertheless,
having stalls, banners and plates.

The mediaeval Ladies of the Garter, of whom not much is known, seem to
fall into a third category - they did not have stalls assigned, nor
were plates or banners erected, but they did apparently wear Garter
robes and presumably played some role in the public functions of the
Order. There is some further detail, together with a full biographical
list, at pp 17-19 of "The Order of the Garter : its Knights & Stall
Plates 1348-1984" by Grace Holmes.

MAR

Leo van de Pas

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 21 aug 2005 22:54:02

I still find this aspect quite puzzling. I had found that website and had
printed the list and started to add the information to the individuals. And
at the moment several of these ladies are searchable in my website as Lady
of the Garter. But I start to wonder now, what did it mean? It is only last
week that I received this book on the Order of the Garter and find there is
no reference to _those_ ladies, not even in the specific list of Ladies of
the Garter. Was it perhaps seen as an extension to the honour bestowed upon
the husband? If the definitive book on the Order of the Garter does not
mention them, what is the meaning of it? Especially as these ladies on that
list give a year in which they became Lady of the Garter.
Many thanks.
Leo

-- Original Message -----
From: "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel


Leo,

There were more than 9 ladies of the Garter. Katherine Swynford was
one in I think 1386/7, and her daughter Joan Beaufort followed later.
Cousin Agnes Chaucer was also a Lady of the Garter and I think I recall
reading somewhere that later ladies consulted her effigy/cadaver tomb
at Ewelme to learn how they should wear their garters. In Katherine's
case, we have the order to issue her robes, and Dugdale's drawing of
her and Joan's Lincoln Cathedral tombs shows enamelled indents on the
sides of the marble tombs.

Lady members were apparently admitted as early as 1358, beginning with
Philippa of Hainault, and originally were the wives/daughters of
original male companions.

As for their purpose, I'm not certain that anybody really knows. They
were accorded robes for the event but not stall-plates (obviously).
Perhaps they enjoyed the sort of spiritual benefits accorded by other
confraternities of the era.

Here's a link that, at the bottom of the page, lists the Ladies of the
Garter:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm

Kindest regards,

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net


Leo van de Pas

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 21 aug 2005 23:45:02

The list of the _proper_ Knights of the Garter is about 21 pages. But
Margaret Thatcher is not the only, let alone the first woman.
971. Lavinia (nee Strutt), Duchess of Norfolk, has the notation "The first
Lady Companion of the Order" Nominated 23 April 1990.

Quickly looking through these pages I do not see other women, but there is
that page with those 9 Ladies of the Garter I mentioned before.

There are all kinds of other lists,
PRELATE Office instituted by the Founder
CHANCELLOR office instituted by Letters Patent 10 October 1475
REGISTER Office probably instituted by King Henry V
GARTER, PRINCIPAL KING OF ARMS, Office instituted 1417
GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD Office instituted by the Founder
SECRETARY Office instituted by Statute 20 April 1904

And WHY are those ladies not mentioned? They ware all prominent and I think
(presume) all maried to a K.G.................
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel


In message of 21 Aug, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

I know there is this list on the Internet which gives all those
Ladies of the Garter, but what did that mean? They were not
knighted.........

In 1999 a book was published "The Most Noble Order of the Garter 650
years" with a foreword by HRH the Duke of Edinburgh. In it is a
great list of all the knights of the Garter, all 987 of them,
including Margaret Thatcher (nr.980).

This book is by Peter J. Begent and Hubert Chesshyre and, apparently,
you can get it only at Windsor Castle. Apparently, you have to go
there to get it, as they don't post it, and it is quite expensive.
Still, it is a superb production with many pictures in it .

There is a page "Appendix B" The Ladies of the Garter, there are only
9 mentioned, Queen Alexandra (in 1901) Queen Mary (in 1910), Queen
(Mother) Elizabeth (in 1936), Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands (in
1944) Queen EWlizabeth II (in 1947) Queen Juliana of The Netherlands (in
1958) Queen Margarethe II of Denmark (in 1979) Queen Beatrix of The
Netherlands (n 1989) and Princess Royal Anne (in 1994).

None of the ladies of that Internet list have a
mention.................what is the meaning of that list?.

Ladies of the Garter had lapsed around the time of Henry VIII and were
reintroduced by Edward VII. I do not know what their role or status
was, apart from being able to tog up in similar fancy clothes to all the
Knights of the Garter at the annual ceremonies.

The order of the Garter consists, at the core, of the Sovereign and 25
knights. Subsequently various additional categories have been added,
Sons of the Sovereign and Foreign Sovereigns; their numbers are
additional to the core 25. The Prince of Wales always used to be one of
the 25 core; not sure if the current PoW is now classed as a son of the
sovereign and thus in addition to the core 25.

But the remarkable development of the last 10 years has been the
addition of Lady Thatcher as one of the 25 core knights. Unless anyone
knows different? She does not seem to me to be in the category of
Ladies of the Garter, though in practice there is probably not much
difference.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org


Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 23 aug 2005 06:02:19

Leo,

I don't know if this will help, but I have collated and exerpted some
of what I've found on the Order and the Ladies. It follows below. As
for Ladies of the Garter being "all prominent" that is not necessarily
the case. Certainly, in the reign of Edward III they were all
prominent, being either royalty or wives/daughters of original Garter
companions, and certainly now, at least, they seem to be prominent
ladies, but ca. reigns of Richard II and Henry IV and a little later,
you had the odd obscure lady nominated here and there, sometimes for
apparently little or no reason.

============================================

A list of "Ladies of the Garter" is given as appendix material in _The
Order of the Garter: its knights and stall plates 1348 to 1984. Grace
Holmes (Windsor: 1984). Holmes notes that "this list is based on GEC
Complete Peerage II App. 591-6" and lists something like 70 (I think? I
had typed a "20" but think it was a typo and am too tired to pull up
the list again) ladies prior to the 20th century.

She further notes:

"Since the Order was founded on the practice of medieval chivalry,
women had from the beginning a place in its ceremonies, though they are
not mentioned in the Statutes of Institution. It was not possible for
them to be Knights: rather their role was to encourage the Knights in
tournaments and to reward their success.

Queen Philippa, wife of Edward III, was granted the huge sum of 500
pounds to prepare her robes for the ceremonies of the Order in 1358...
Nicolas records that 'like the Knights [in 1358] she made her offerings
in the Chapel at Windsor on St. George's Day.'..." (p. 17).

She also notes that "When, upon his accession to the throne, Edward VII
made Queen Alexandra a Lady of the Garter, he developed and expanded
the medieval concept by allotting her a stall in St. George's Chapel
where her crown and banner were displayed. Garter, Sir Albert Woods,
pointed out that this was not in accordance with the Statutes of the
Order. However, the Sovereign's wish was carried out." (p. 19)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

There was also an article done on the subject of the Ladies of the
Order:

Gillespie, James L., "Ladies of the Fraternity of Saint George and of
the Society of the Garter" . Albion, 17,3 (Fall, 1985), pp. 259-78.:

"As early as the reign of Edward III and certainly in the reign of his
successor, Richard II, women were granted the robes of order, permitted
to wear its insignia, and were present at the ceremonies associated
with the Order of the Garter..."

"In 1381, the Duke of Brittany, perhaps influenced by the practice of
the Order of the Garter, instituted the Order of the Ermine which
awarded collars of the order to lady 'chivalresses'... Maurice Kean
has, in any event, established that the Order of St. Anthony in
Hainault admitted women as well as men into its ranks".

"There is, nonetheless, an abundance of evidence in the reign of
Richard II for the association of ladies with the Knights of the
Garter. The ladies of Richard's reign received robes and hoods
ornamented with garters that corresponded in color, quality and
quantity of cloth and furs with those of the Knights. These robes were
delivered to the favored women annually by warrants from the crown just
as robes were delivered to the Knights in preparation..."

"The ladies favored with robes and the garter were designated as
'Dominae de Secta et Liberatura Garterii' in the reign of Richard II
and as 'Dames de la Fraternite de Saint George' under Henry V."

"Two rather obscure ladies who joined dthis bevy of Lancastrian
beauties in the receipt of the Robes of the Garter in 1408 reinforce
the view that a lady could be received into the Fraternity
ihndependently of husband or family."

"John Anstis has argued convincingly ... it appears that the Ladies of
the Garter... were closeted in the rood loft when the Knights Companion
occupied their stalls. The queen's closet and the closet for ladies
are identified in Ashmole's plate of the St. George's Chapel as
reconstructed by Edward IV."

"These modern Ladies of the Garter achieved a greater degree of
participation within the Order than their medieval counterparts.
Stalls were assigned to them in St. George's Chapel, and although, like
the Sovereigns of the Order, they lack stall-plates, their banners are
suspended above their stall and crowns surmount the carved canopies."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Other information can be found in Begent, Peter J. and Chesshyre,
Hubert. _The Most Noble Order of the Garter 650 Years_ (London, 1999):

"What had King Edward achieved by his Foundation? As Collins has
remarked, he had established a sophisticated instrument of patronage
and through it sought, at least initially, to galvanise aristocratic
support for the war with France. It served to increase his own
prestige and to glamorise botht he ongoing conflict and those who
participated in it. His creation was a small society which achieved a
balance between in stitutional splendour and organizational
feasibility..."

Chapter 6 pertains to the issue of the Ladies of the Order:

"Although for some one hundred and fifty years after the Foundation of
the Order of the Garter ladies were associated with the annual
ceremonies, there is no firm evidence which would suggest that they
were ever formally admitted to membership of the Order. It must,
however, be observed that in 1376 the King's daughter, Isabella
Countess of Bedford, is described as 'de secto militium de Garterio'...
Despite this phraseology it is to be noted that whilst the Statutes
provide for the scrutiny (the list of names to be presented to the
Sovereign as worthy of election) to be divided into certain classes of
candidates, ladies do not appear in these classes. Furthermore, n o
record of the election of a lady appears in the annals of the Order,
nor does any evidence exist of a lady being installed in St. George's
Chapel, a formality essential to membership of the Order."

"...although ladies were issued with robes ... there is no record of a
mantle ever being supplied for a lady; a fact which is of considerable
significance in the consideration of the position of ladies in relation
to the Order, since the mantle is the most important of the articles
of formal dress, and one with which a Companion is, following his
appointment, invested with considerable ceremony. The most important
item of regalia is the Garter itself, and there are records of this
being supplied to ladies... The Garter, like the mantle, was delivered
to a Companion as part of the Investiture but there is n o record of
ladies having the Garter ceremonially delivered to them...Of the part
played by ladies in the ceremonial of the Order the evidence is yet
more scanty. Queen Philippa is recorded as having made her offering at
the Mass of the Feast in 1361, but it is not until 1476 that any
further account is to be found of the role of ladies in the
celebration, and that merely states that the Queen, together with the
Princess Elizabeth wearinbg gowns of murrey powdered with garters
attended High Mass and Evensong together with other ladies and that
they sat in the rood loft of St George's Chapel."

==========================================

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 23 aug 2005 07:13:06

Leo,

Yes, technically, as far as I can ascertain, Isabella, daughter of
Edward III, was a Lady of the Order of the Garter.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

Leo van de Pas

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 aug 2005 07:57:02

Wow!! This is a wonderful amount of information!!

It still seems difficult to ascertain why or how they were Ladies of the
Garter. There is an interesting note in CP Bedford Volume II page 69 and 70
about Isabel daughter of Edward III. In 1377 Enguerand de Coucy, Earl of
Bedford and husband of this Isabel left England and his English honours
behind, but Isabel did not accompany him to France. "His wife remained in
England, and was one of the Ladies for whom (notwithstanding her husband's
resignation) robes of the Order of the Garter were provided, not only in
1376 (when he was still in England) , but (under the style of Countess of
Bedford) in April 1379. This is the last mention of her, as she died before
4 May 1379."

Did those robes make her a Lady of the Garter?

Many thanks.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel


Leo,

I don't know if this will help, but I have collated and exerpted some
of what I've found on the Order and the Ladies. It follows below. As
for Ladies of the Garter being "all prominent" that is not necessarily
the case. Certainly, in the reign of Edward III they were all
prominent, being either royalty or wives/daughters of original Garter
companions, and certainly now, at least, they seem to be prominent
ladies, but ca. reigns of Richard II and Henry IV and a little later,
you had the odd obscure lady nominated here and there, sometimes for
apparently little or no reason.

============================================

A list of "Ladies of the Garter" is given as appendix material in _The
Order of the Garter: its knights and stall plates 1348 to 1984. Grace
Holmes (Windsor: 1984). Holmes notes that "this list is based on GEC
Complete Peerage II App. 591-6" and lists something like 70 (I think? I
had typed a "20" but think it was a typo and am too tired to pull up
the list again) ladies prior to the 20th century.

She further notes:

"Since the Order was founded on the practice of medieval chivalry,
women had from the beginning a place in its ceremonies, though they are
not mentioned in the Statutes of Institution. It was not possible for
them to be Knights: rather their role was to encourage the Knights in
tournaments and to reward their success.

Queen Philippa, wife of Edward III, was granted the huge sum of 500
pounds to prepare her robes for the ceremonies of the Order in 1358...
Nicolas records that 'like the Knights [in 1358] she made her offerings
in the Chapel at Windsor on St. George's Day.'..." (p. 17).

She also notes that "When, upon his accession to the throne, Edward VII
made Queen Alexandra a Lady of the Garter, he developed and expanded
the medieval concept by allotting her a stall in St. George's Chapel
where her crown and banner were displayed. Garter, Sir Albert Woods,
pointed out that this was not in accordance with the Statutes of the
Order. However, the Sovereign's wish was carried out." (p. 19)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

There was also an article done on the subject of the Ladies of the
Order:

Gillespie, James L., "Ladies of the Fraternity of Saint George and of
the Society of the Garter" . Albion, 17,3 (Fall, 1985), pp. 259-78.:

"As early as the reign of Edward III and certainly in the reign of his
successor, Richard II, women were granted the robes of order, permitted
to wear its insignia, and were present at the ceremonies associated
with the Order of the Garter..."

"In 1381, the Duke of Brittany, perhaps influenced by the practice of
the Order of the Garter, instituted the Order of the Ermine which
awarded collars of the order to lady 'chivalresses'... Maurice Kean
has, in any event, established that the Order of St. Anthony in
Hainault admitted women as well as men into its ranks".

"There is, nonetheless, an abundance of evidence in the reign of
Richard II for the association of ladies with the Knights of the
Garter. The ladies of Richard's reign received robes and hoods
ornamented with garters that corresponded in color, quality and
quantity of cloth and furs with those of the Knights. These robes were
delivered to the favored women annually by warrants from the crown just
as robes were delivered to the Knights in preparation..."

"The ladies favored with robes and the garter were designated as
'Dominae de Secta et Liberatura Garterii' in the reign of Richard II
and as 'Dames de la Fraternite de Saint George' under Henry V."

"Two rather obscure ladies who joined dthis bevy of Lancastrian
beauties in the receipt of the Robes of the Garter in 1408 reinforce
the view that a lady could be received into the Fraternity
ihndependently of husband or family."

"John Anstis has argued convincingly ... it appears that the Ladies of
the Garter... were closeted in the rood loft when the Knights Companion
occupied their stalls. The queen's closet and the closet for ladies
are identified in Ashmole's plate of the St. George's Chapel as
reconstructed by Edward IV."

"These modern Ladies of the Garter achieved a greater degree of
participation within the Order than their medieval counterparts.
Stalls were assigned to them in St. George's Chapel, and although, like
the Sovereigns of the Order, they lack stall-plates, their banners are
suspended above their stall and crowns surmount the carved canopies."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Other information can be found in Begent, Peter J. and Chesshyre,
Hubert. _The Most Noble Order of the Garter 650 Years_ (London, 1999):

"What had King Edward achieved by his Foundation? As Collins has
remarked, he had established a sophisticated instrument of patronage
and through it sought, at least initially, to galvanise aristocratic
support for the war with France. It served to increase his own
prestige and to glamorise botht he ongoing conflict and those who
participated in it. His creation was a small society which achieved a
balance between in stitutional splendour and organizational
feasibility..."

Chapter 6 pertains to the issue of the Ladies of the Order:

"Although for some one hundred and fifty years after the Foundation of
the Order of the Garter ladies were associated with the annual
ceremonies, there is no firm evidence which would suggest that they
were ever formally admitted to membership of the Order. It must,
however, be observed that in 1376 the King's daughter, Isabella
Countess of Bedford, is described as 'de secto militium de Garterio'...
Despite this phraseology it is to be noted that whilst the Statutes
provide for the scrutiny (the list of names to be presented to the
Sovereign as worthy of election) to be divided into certain classes of
candidates, ladies do not appear in these classes. Furthermore, n o
record of the election of a lady appears in the annals of the Order,
nor does any evidence exist of a lady being installed in St. George's
Chapel, a formality essential to membership of the Order."

"...although ladies were issued with robes ... there is no record of a
mantle ever being supplied for a lady; a fact which is of considerable
significance in the consideration of the position of ladies in relation
to the Order, since the mantle is the most important of the articles
of formal dress, and one with which a Companion is, following his
appointment, invested with considerable ceremony. The most important
item of regalia is the Garter itself, and there are records of this
being supplied to ladies... The Garter, like the mantle, was delivered
to a Companion as part of the Investiture but there is n o record of
ladies having the Garter ceremonially delivered to them...Of the part
played by ladies in the ceremonial of the Order the evidence is yet
more scanty. Queen Philippa is recorded as having made her offering at
the Mass of the Feast in 1361, but it is not until 1476 that any
further account is to be found of the role of ladies in the
celebration, and that merely states that the Queen, together with the
Princess Elizabeth wearinbg gowns of murrey powdered with garters
attended High Mass and Evensong together with other ladies and that
they sat in the rood loft of St George's Chapel."

==========================================

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net


Leo van de Pas

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 aug 2005 08:25:02

But technically, how did she become one? That is the fascinating question.
Because she was married to a Knight? Was she appointed independantly of
being married to her husband? What established her as one? What is the paper
trail? I have seen the detailed list on the Internet and there are quite a
few of them, something must have made these ladies Ladies of the Garter.
Officialdom in England has always been pretty thorough, but not for these
ladies?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel


Leo,

Yes, technically, as far as I can ascertain, Isabella, daughter of
Edward III, was a Lady of the Order of the Garter.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net


Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 aug 2005 09:52:41

In message of 23 Aug, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

But technically, how did she become one? That is the fascinating question.
Because she was married to a Knight? Was she appointed independantly of
being married to her husband? What established her as one? What is the paper
trail? I have seen the detailed list on the Internet and there are quite a
few of them, something must have made these ladies Ladies of the Garter.
Officialdom in England has always been pretty thorough, but not for these
ladies?

I still think that the medieval ladies who had robes produced for them
for the Garter celebrations were just that, attendees at those
celebrations. I have seen no evidence that they were then called
"Ladies" of the Garter, much as that is now a convenient term for them.
Further there is no record (that I have heard of) of them on any of the
Garter documents; we know of them only from the wardrobe accounts.

I would suspect that some of the unexplained of these ladies were
unusually attractive, extrapolating from the prominent role of ladies
in chivalry events of those times.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Ladies of the Garter was Re: Agnes Arundel

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 23 aug 2005 19:51:41

Tim,

I'm no Latin scholar, but it seems to me that they were indeed called
something very like 'Ladies of the Garter':

"The ladies favored with robes and the garter were designated as
'Dominae de Secta et Liberatura Garterii' in the reign of Richard II
and as 'Dames de la Fraternite de Saint George' under Henry V."
(Gillespie, James L., "Ladies of the Fraternity of Saint George and of
the Society of the Garter" . Albion, 17,3 (Fall, 1985), pp. 259-78.)

I certainly do not argue that they were in any way equivalent members
of the Order to the male companions, but they do seem to have had some
status.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net

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