In *The History and Antiquities of the County of Rutland* (1811), Thomas Blore describes the seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282) of Empingham. His breakdown of the arms is as follows:
1. a fesse btwn. Bars, gemelles
2. a Lion Rampant
3. 3 mullets of six points within a border engrailed
4. on a fesse btwn. 2 fleurs des lis in chief and two in base, (Gules)
Blore equated no. 1 with the de Normanville arms and no. 4 with the arms of the d'Eyville family. He was unable, however, to identify the arms/families in nos. 2 and 3.
According to a couple of messages I've found in the archives of gen-medieval, it seems that the d'Eyvilles married into the Percy family so I've wondered if the Lion Rampant in no. 2 might not represent the Percys, but that's just speculation on my part.
Since Blore couldn't identify all of the families who were represented in Dionisa's seal, I'm wondering if there is a source where one could search by the arms rather then the family? Is anyone familiar enough with a large enough selection of arms to recognize any of the arms in her seal? If so, would you agree with the two identifications he did make?
Any and all help will be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Jeff Duvall
jeffery@iquest.net
re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d.
In message of 19 Aug, jeffery@iquest.net ("Jeffery A. Duvall") wrote:
Yes: Papworth's Ordinary of Arms. Unfortunately this is not a very
scholarly work and there has been a project on the go since 1926 to
replace it.
The replacement is to be in four volumes of which the first two have
been published and the last two should be done by 2010. The title is
"Dictionary of British Arms: Medieval Ordinary". Unfortunately the
publishing is in the order of the first charge in the blazon and
currently they have got to Chevron so Fesse has not been done.
Having said all the above about Papworth, he actually gives some owners
of the above arms.
No 1, depending on the tinctures actually used, could be any of de la
Mare, Harleston, Badelismere.
No 2 is such a common charge that it could be any of hundreds of
people/families. The tinctures are needed to get a bit closer.
No 3 needs the tinctures but could be Sanston, Wickton, Kirkebryde,
Wiggerton, Perwing and variations of those names.
No 4 does not make sense as it does not say what was on the fesse. But
the arms for some Deyvilles that I have found (Burke's General
Armory) are nothing like this blazon.
Seemingly, no. But it really needs some tinctures to make serious
identifications.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In *The History and Antiquities of the County of Rutland* (1811),
Thomas Blore describes the seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de
Normanville (d. 1282) of Empingham. His breakdown of the arms is as
follows:
1. a fesse btwn. Bars, gemelles
2. a Lion Rampant
3. 3 mullets of six points within a border engrailed
4. on a fesse btwn. 2 fleurs des lis in chief and two in base, (Gules)
Blore equated no. 1 with the de Normanville arms and no. 4 with the
arms of the d'Eyville family. He was unable, however, to identify
the arms/families in nos. 2 and 3.
According to a couple of messages I've found in the archives of
gen-medieval, it seems that the d'Eyvilles married into the Percy
family so I've wondered if the Lion Rampant in no. 2 might not
represent the Percys, but that's just speculation on my part.
Since Blore couldn't identify all of the families who were
represented in Dionisa's seal, I'm wondering if there is a source
where one could search by the arms rather then the family?
Yes: Papworth's Ordinary of Arms. Unfortunately this is not a very
scholarly work and there has been a project on the go since 1926 to
replace it.
The replacement is to be in four volumes of which the first two have
been published and the last two should be done by 2010. The title is
"Dictionary of British Arms: Medieval Ordinary". Unfortunately the
publishing is in the order of the first charge in the blazon and
currently they have got to Chevron so Fesse has not been done.
Is anyone familiar enough with a large enough selection of arms to
recognize any of the arms in her seal?
Having said all the above about Papworth, he actually gives some owners
of the above arms.
No 1, depending on the tinctures actually used, could be any of de la
Mare, Harleston, Badelismere.
No 2 is such a common charge that it could be any of hundreds of
people/families. The tinctures are needed to get a bit closer.
No 3 needs the tinctures but could be Sanston, Wickton, Kirkebryde,
Wiggerton, Perwing and variations of those names.
No 4 does not make sense as it does not say what was on the fesse. But
the arms for some Deyvilles that I have found (Burke's General
Armory) are nothing like this blazon.
If so, would you agree with the two identifications he did make?
Seemingly, no. But it really needs some tinctures to make serious
identifications.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Dolly Ziegler
Re: Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
---559023410-1804928587-1124757892=:1737
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.62.0508222215401.1737@mail>
Hello to Jeff, Tim & the list. I wonder if the description of #4 has=20
been muddled, and "on" was really "or," though no tinctures are given=20
for the first three arms; I note that "(Gules)" is appended to #4. Or some=
=20
words have been omitted?
Joseph Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ lists four Deyvill/Deyvile=20
armigers. One is:
Deyvill, Sir John - bore, at the battle of Falkirk 1298, or, a fess gules,=
=20
florett'e counterchanged - 3, 3, 2, 1 - 3, 2, 1 [illus.] 2, 2, 2. Borne=20
also by Robert; Jenyns' Ordinary.
The illustration -- I'm trying to describe in non-heraldic terms -- top=20
1/3 gold with three red fleurs de lys; middle 1/3 red with two gold fleurs=
=20
de lys; bottom 1/3 gold with one red fleur de lys.
From=20the description by Foster, it appears that the number and=20
arrangements of the fleurs de lys varied for different men and/or=20
different times. (How's that for a sweeping statement.)
N.B. Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ is a beauty of a book. Do read John=
=20
Brooke-Little's introduction for an expert's evaluation. http://www.abebooks.com=
=20
has it (1989 ed. I think) for $17.86 from a bookseller in Michigan USA;=20
other sellers in UK & Canada; the Australian sellers seem very=20
high-priced. Was reprinted in hardback and softcover editions. Cheers,=20
Dolly in Maryland USA
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Mon, 22=20
Aug 2005, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
wys.org
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
---559023410-1804928587-1124757892=:1737
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.62.0508222215401.1737@mail>
Hello to Jeff, Tim & the list. I wonder if the description of #4 has=20
been muddled, and "on" was really "or," though no tinctures are given=20
for the first three arms; I note that "(Gules)" is appended to #4. Or some=
=20
words have been omitted?
Joseph Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ lists four Deyvill/Deyvile=20
armigers. One is:
Deyvill, Sir John - bore, at the battle of Falkirk 1298, or, a fess gules,=
=20
florett'e counterchanged - 3, 3, 2, 1 - 3, 2, 1 [illus.] 2, 2, 2. Borne=20
also by Robert; Jenyns' Ordinary.
The illustration -- I'm trying to describe in non-heraldic terms -- top=20
1/3 gold with three red fleurs de lys; middle 1/3 red with two gold fleurs=
=20
de lys; bottom 1/3 gold with one red fleur de lys.
From=20the description by Foster, it appears that the number and=20
arrangements of the fleurs de lys varied for different men and/or=20
different times. (How's that for a sweeping statement.)
N.B. Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ is a beauty of a book. Do read John=
=20
Brooke-Little's introduction for an expert's evaluation. http://www.abebooks.com=
=20
has it (1989 ed. I think) for $17.86 from a bookseller in Michigan USA;=20
other sellers in UK & Canada; the Australian sellers seem very=20
high-priced. Was reprinted in hardback and softcover editions. Cheers,=20
Dolly in Maryland USA
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Mon, 22=20
Aug 2005, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 19 Aug, jeffery@iquest.net ("Jeffery A. Duvall") wrote:
In *The History and Antiquities of the County of Rutland* (1811),
Thomas Blore describes the seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de
Normanville (d. 1282) of Empingham. His breakdown of the arms is as
follows:
1. a fesse btwn. Bars, gemelles
2. a Lion Rampant
3. 3 mullets of six points within a border engrailed
4. on a fesse btwn. 2 fleurs des lis in chief and two in base, (Gules)
Blore equated no. 1 with the de Normanville arms and no. 4 with the
arms of the d'Eyville family. He was unable, however, to identify
the arms/families in nos. 2 and 3.
According to a couple of messages I've found in the archives of
gen-medieval, it seems that the d'Eyvilles married into the Percy
family so I've wondered if the Lion Rampant in no. 2 might not
represent the Percys, but that's just speculation on my part.
Since Blore couldn't identify all of the families who were
represented in Dionisa's seal, I'm wondering if there is a source
where one could search by the arms rather then the family?
Yes: Papworth's Ordinary of Arms. Unfortunately this is not a very
scholarly work and there has been a project on the go since 1926 to
replace it.
The replacement is to be in four volumes of which the first two have
been published and the last two should be done by 2010. The title is
"Dictionary of British Arms: Medieval Ordinary". Unfortunately the
publishing is in the order of the first charge in the blazon and
currently they have got to Chevron so Fesse has not been done.
Is anyone familiar enough with a large enough selection of arms to
recognize any of the arms in her seal?
Having said all the above about Papworth, he actually gives some owners
of the above arms.
No 1, depending on the tinctures actually used, could be any of de la
Mare, Harleston, Badelismere.
No 2 is such a common charge that it could be any of hundreds of
people/families. The tinctures are needed to get a bit closer.
No 3 needs the tinctures but could be Sanston, Wickton, Kirkebryde,
Wiggerton, Perwing and variations of those names.
No 4 does not make sense as it does not say what was on the fesse. But
the arms for some Deyvilles that I have found (Burke's General
Armory) are nothing like this blazon.
If so, would you agree with the two identifications he did make?
Seemingly, no. But it really needs some tinctures to make serious
identifications.
--=20
Tim Powys-Lybbe=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0tim@po=
wys.org
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0For a miscellany of bygones: http:=
//powys.org
---559023410-1804928587-1124757892=:1737--
-
Jeffery A. Duvall
Re: Seal of Denise/Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (
Dolly, Tim, John,
Well I've gone back to the source (Blore) and this time I managed to
photocopy the page in question (223), easier said than done given the size
of the book compared to the size of the photocopier. Anyway here's the
text:
"The arms on the seal comprise four Shields, the base points of which meet
in the centre of the seal. The first (1), a Fesse between Bars, gemelles,
is doubtless the coat of Normanvill -- the second (2), a Lion rampant, I
must leave to future discovery -- the third (3), three Mullets of six
points, within a Border engrailed, must be left in the same situation -- the
fourth (4), (Or) on a Fesse, between two Fleurs des lis in chief and two in
bse, (Gules), the like number (of the field) is the arms of D'Eyvill.
Between the shields are the letters I.M.R.D. The first of those letters,
preceding the shield of Normanville, should probably be an N. part of which
might be obliterated when the drawing was taken. The D. precedes the shield
of D'Eyvill."
One final note, I also found that Blore correct his earlier chart on the de
Normanvilles and on this same page (223) he places Margaret de Normanville
as the daughter of Thomas de Normanville (and Denise/Dionisa), who died
1282/3 (11 Edw. I).
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Jeff Duvall
Well I've gone back to the source (Blore) and this time I managed to
photocopy the page in question (223), easier said than done given the size
of the book compared to the size of the photocopier. Anyway here's the
text:
"The arms on the seal comprise four Shields, the base points of which meet
in the centre of the seal. The first (1), a Fesse between Bars, gemelles,
is doubtless the coat of Normanvill -- the second (2), a Lion rampant, I
must leave to future discovery -- the third (3), three Mullets of six
points, within a Border engrailed, must be left in the same situation -- the
fourth (4), (Or) on a Fesse, between two Fleurs des lis in chief and two in
bse, (Gules), the like number (of the field) is the arms of D'Eyvill.
Between the shields are the letters I.M.R.D. The first of those letters,
preceding the shield of Normanville, should probably be an N. part of which
might be obliterated when the drawing was taken. The D. precedes the shield
of D'Eyvill."
One final note, I also found that Blore correct his earlier chart on the de
Normanvilles and on this same page (223) he places Margaret de Normanville
as the daughter of Thomas de Normanville (and Denise/Dionisa), who died
1282/3 (11 Edw. I).
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Jeff Duvall
Hello to Jeff, Tim & the list. I wonder if the description of #4 has
been muddled, and "on" was really "or," though no tinctures are given
for the first three arms; I note that "(Gules)" is appended to #4. Or some
words have been omitted?
Joseph Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ lists four Deyvill/Deyvile
armigers. One is:
Deyvill, Sir John - bore, at the battle of Falkirk 1298, or, a fess gules,
florett'e counterchanged - 3, 3, 2, 1 - 3, 2, 1 [illus.] 2, 2, 2. Borne
also by Robert; Jenyns' Ordinary.
The illustration -- I'm trying to describe in non-heraldic terms -- top
1/3 gold with three red fleurs de lys; middle 1/3 red with two gold fleurs
de lys; bottom 1/3 gold with one red fleur de lys.
From the description by Foster, it appears that the number and
arrangements of the fleurs de lys varied for different men and/or
different times. (How's that for a sweeping statement.)
N.B. Foster's _Dictionary of heraldry_ is a beauty of a book. Do read John
Brooke-Little's introduction for an expert's evaluation. http://www.abebooks.com
has it (1989 ed. I think) for $17.86 from a bookseller in Michigan USA;=20
other sellers in UK & Canada; the Australian sellers seem very=20
high-priced. Was reprinted in hardback and softcover editions. Cheers> On
Mon, 22=20
Aug 2005, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: