Seal of Joan de Grenville, wife of Sir John Engayne

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Douglas Richardson royala

Seal of Joan de Grenville, wife of Sir John Engayne

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 aug 2005 17:49:51

Dear Newsgroup ~

Leafing through my copy of Birch's Catalogue of Seals this past week, I
noticed a seal for Joan Engayne, who Birch identifies as being for
Joan, widow of Sir John Engayne, of Blatherwick, Northamptonshire:

"6628. [13th Century]. Green: fine, imperfect. About 1-3/4 x 1-1/8
in. when perfect. [Add. ch. 21,545].
Pointed oval. In tightly-fitting dress, cloak, flat head-dress, in the
left hand a shield of arms. Standing on a corbel. Arms: eight
martlets, four, three, and one: the corresponding shield or other
object in the right hand is wanting. Legend: SIGILL' IOHANNE .......
Beaded borders."
[Reference: Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the Departments
of Manuscripts in the British Museum, 2 Pt. 1 (1892): 383-384].

Assuming the seal is correctly dated, I presume it is for Joan de
Grenville, widow of Sir John Engaine (died 1297). However, as best I
can determine, the arms on her seal are neither for Engaine, nor for
Grenville.

Does anyone want to attempt to identify these arms?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips

Re: Seal of Joan de Grenville, wife of Sir John Engayne

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 19 aug 2005 18:39:03

Douglas Richardson wrote:
"6628. [13th Century]. Green: fine, imperfect. About 1-3/4 x 1-1/8
in. when perfect. [Add. ch. 21,545].
Pointed oval. In tightly-fitting dress, cloak, flat head-dress, in the
left hand a shield of arms. Standing on a corbel. Arms: eight
martlets, four, three, and one: the corresponding shield or other
object in the right hand is wanting. Legend: SIGILL' IOHANNE .......
Beaded borders."
[Reference: Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the Departments
of Manuscripts in the British Museum, 2 Pt. 1 (1892): 383-384].

Assuming the seal is correctly dated, I presume it is for Joan de
Grenville, widow of Sir John Engaine (died 1297). However, as best I
can determine, the arms on her seal are neither for Engaine, nor for
Grenville.

Does anyone want to attempt to identify these arms?

I can't do so, but Complete Peerage does mention this seal [vol. 5, p. 73,
continuation of note h from p. 72], and suggests that the charges may be
lozenges rather than martlets, and that the arms may be those of Greinville.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Seal of Joan de Grenville, wife of Sir John Engayne

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 aug 2005 20:48:24

Dear Chris ~

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
"6628. [13th Century]. Green: fine, imperfect. About 1-3/4 x 1-1/8
in. when perfect. [Add. ch. 21,545].
Pointed oval. In tightly-fitting dress, cloak, flat head-dress, in the
left hand a shield of arms. Standing on a corbel. Arms: eight
martlets, four, three, and one: the corresponding shield or other
object in the right hand is wanting. Legend: SIGILL' IOHANNE .......
Beaded borders."
[Reference: Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the Departments
of Manuscripts in the British Museum, 2 Pt. 1 (1892): 383-384].

Assuming the seal is correctly dated, I presume it is for Joan de
Grenville, widow of Sir John Engaine (died 1297). However, as best I
can determine, the arms on her seal are neither for Engaine, nor for
Grenville.

Does anyone want to attempt to identify these arms?

I can't do so, but Complete Peerage does mention this seal [vol. 5, p. 73,
continuation of note h from p. 72], and suggests that the charges may be
lozenges rather than martlets, and that the arms may be those of Greinville.

Chris Phillips

Kay Allen

Re: Seal of Joan de Grenville, wife of Sir John Engayne

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 23 aug 2005 01:24:02

Dear chris and group.

My database has Joan as a Greinville.

K

--- Chris Phillips <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:
"6628. [13th Century]. Green: fine, imperfect.
About 1-3/4 x 1-1/8
in. when perfect. [Add. ch. 21,545].
Pointed oval. In tightly-fitting dress, cloak,
flat head-dress, in the
left hand a shield of arms. Standing on a corbel.
Arms: eight
martlets, four, three, and one: the corresponding
shield or other
object in the right hand is wanting. Legend:
SIGILL' IOHANNE .......
Beaded borders."
[Reference: Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of
Seals in the Departments
of Manuscripts in the British Museum, 2 Pt. 1
(1892): 383-384].

Assuming the seal is correctly dated, I presume it
is for Joan de
Grenville, widow of Sir John Engaine (died 1297).
However, as best I
can determine, the arms on her seal are neither
for Engaine, nor for
Grenville.

Does anyone want to attempt to identify these
arms?

I can't do so, but Complete Peerage does mention
this seal [vol. 5, p. 73,
continuation of note h from p. 72], and suggests
that the charges may be
lozenges rather than martlets, and that the arms may
be those of Greinville.

Chris Phillips




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