We are writing a history of our Salisbury family origins (traceable back to the Forest of
Bowland and environs in 1600s), and are currently trying to assess evidence for and against the
16th century hypothesis (gleaned from various websites) that a certain Adam Guelph (read
Welf) of Saxony /Bavaria ("de Salzburg") came over with William the Conqueror in the
Conquest, and was given an extensive tract of land in the Ribble Valley as his grant. (I have already learned from a Prof. at Leeds that the name "Adam" did not exist in the Welf family, and that no one of that name is listed as coming over with the Normans; nor is there any similar name in Domesday.
One (website) reference links "Salesbury Hall, Lancashire" with this Adam and his descendants, Alexander, thomas and Henry. The original Hall was destroyed by marauding Scots in about 1320. What was the original (Latin?) spelling of Salesbury in this medieval period?
The claim ofa Germanic origin was probably first made in the evidence given by Welsh Salusburys in the Heraldic Visitations of Northern Wales.. The following source document is quite interesting, even compelling in its range of details, and counter claims for the origins of the Welsh Salusburys:
http://members.aol.com/dalesman/wales1.htm
The idea that "Salzburg" is etymologically related to "Sal{e,i)sbur{ie/y}" is fundamental to this hypothesis; do both names in fact have Latin origins? Could such a name have been derived from a foreign name, and then gradually become regularised over the succeeding centuries? Or do we just accept the stock answer from people who know, such as the following:
Salisbury name-wise is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "sahl" meaning willow and "burh" meaning fortress or manor.
We trace our name back to "Christopher Salsburie" in the Forest of Bowland in the mid 1600s.
Any clues as how to delve further in this transitional area that relates both to West Riding Yorkshire and Clitheroe etc Lancashire? How common was the surname in the greater Lancashire and Yorkshire region before 1600?
Armorial Bearings
Our armorial bearings (seen in an M I at Lancaster Priory, and on a crest passed down in the family and brought to NZ in 1853) are similar to those of the Welsh Salusbury line, and closer still to those of the Manchester Salisburys (as seen in the General Armory). BUT we're quite stuck on linkages. Both of the above show crescents on the shield, which we take to mean "attendance at three crusades".... Our little crest (and the Monument) has a crowned lion holding a crescent between both paws.
A bit of a puzzle: I haven't studied the Crusades yet (and haven't time to), but wonder what noble person went to the Crusades and then perhaps settled in Lancashire on return?? What are the other possibilities?
Thanks very much,
If you wish to email me direct,
salisburys@clear.net.nz
ph 649 6307205 !!
A Lancashire/Yorkshire origin for (some) Sal{i,e,u}sburys?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: A Lancashire/Yorkshire origin for (some) Sal{i,e,u}sbury
Wasn't Sarum the old Latin name?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Salisburys" <salisburys@clear.net.nz>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:33 AM
Subject: A Lancashire/Yorkshire origin for (some) Sal{i,e,u}sburys? Help
needed with sources....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Salisburys" <salisburys@clear.net.nz>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:33 AM
Subject: A Lancashire/Yorkshire origin for (some) Sal{i,e,u}sburys? Help
needed with sources....
We are writing a history of our Salisbury family origins (traceable back
to the Forest of
Bowland and environs in 1600s), and are currently trying to assess
evidence for and against the
16th century hypothesis (gleaned from various websites) that a certain
Adam Guelph (read
Welf) of Saxony /Bavaria ("de Salzburg") came over with William the
Conqueror in the
Conquest, and was given an extensive tract of land in the Ribble Valley as
his grant. (I have already learned from a Prof. at Leeds that the name
"Adam" did not exist in the Welf family, and that no one of that name is
listed as coming over with the Normans; nor is there any similar name in
Domesday.
One (website) reference links "Salesbury Hall, Lancashire" with this Adam
and his descendants, Alexander, thomas and Henry. The original Hall was
destroyed by marauding Scots in about 1320. What was the original (Latin?)
spelling of Salesbury in this medieval period?
The claim ofa Germanic origin was probably first made in the evidence
given by Welsh Salusburys in the Heraldic Visitations of Northern Wales..
The following source document is quite interesting, even compelling in
its range of details, and counter claims for the origins of the Welsh
Salusburys:
http://members.aol.com/dalesman/wales1.htm
The idea that "Salzburg" is etymologically related to "Sal{e,i)sbur{ie/y}"
is fundamental to this hypothesis; do both names in fact have Latin
origins? Could such a name have been derived from a foreign name, and then
gradually become regularised over the succeeding centuries? Or do we just
accept the stock answer from people who know, such as the following:
Salisbury name-wise is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "sahl" meaning
willow and "burh" meaning fortress or manor.
We trace our name back to "Christopher Salsburie" in the Forest of Bowland
in the mid 1600s.
Any clues as how to delve further in this transitional area that relates
both to West Riding Yorkshire and Clitheroe etc Lancashire? How common
was the surname in the greater Lancashire and Yorkshire region before
1600?
Armorial Bearings
Our armorial bearings (seen in an M I at Lancaster Priory, and on a crest
passed down in the family and brought to NZ in 1853) are similar to those
of the Welsh Salusbury line, and closer still to those of the Manchester
Salisburys (as seen in the General Armory). BUT we're quite stuck on
linkages. Both of the above show crescents on the shield, which we take
to mean "attendance at three crusades".... Our little crest (and the
Monument) has a crowned lion holding a crescent between both paws.
A bit of a puzzle: I haven't studied the Crusades yet (and haven't time
to), but wonder what noble person went to the Crusades and then perhaps
settled in Lancashire on return?? What are the other possibilities?
Thanks very much,
If you wish to email me direct,
salisburys@clear.net.nz
ph 649 6307205 !!
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: A Lancashire/Yorkshire origin for (some) Sal{i,e,u}sbury
In message of 17 Aug, salisburys@clear.net.nz (Salisburys) wrote:
<snip of matters I know nothing about>
<and back from a coach tour of the Baltic States>
I wonder if you really mean crest? Crests are born on top of a helmet,
as in birds with crests on their heads. Coats of arms are born on a
shield, or lozenge for women.
I have a profound disinclination to put any meaning into any heraldic
symbols. In any case many people used arms that they had not
inherited. So the only course open to you is to chase up the genealogy
and then, if you want, find what arms any of the people used.
Beware that "nobility" is confined in Britain to Peers of Parliament.
Lots of British people have arms who aren't noble.
No idea.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
<snip of matters I know nothing about>
<and back from a coach tour of the Baltic States>
Armorial Bearings
Our armorial bearings (seen in an M I at Lancaster Priory, and on a
crest
I wonder if you really mean crest? Crests are born on top of a helmet,
as in birds with crests on their heads. Coats of arms are born on a
shield, or lozenge for women.
passed down in the family and brought to NZ in 1853) are
similar to those of the Welsh Salusbury line, and closer still to
those of the Manchester Salisburys (as seen in the General Armory).
BUT we're quite stuck on linkages. Both of the above show crescents
on the shield, which we take to mean "attendance at three
crusades".... Our little crest (and the Monument) has a crowned lion
holding a crescent between both paws.
I have a profound disinclination to put any meaning into any heraldic
symbols. In any case many people used arms that they had not
inherited. So the only course open to you is to chase up the genealogy
and then, if you want, find what arms any of the people used.
A bit of a puzzle: I haven't studied the Crusades yet (and haven't
time to), but wonder what noble person
Beware that "nobility" is confined in Britain to Peers of Parliament.
Lots of British people have arms who aren't noble.
went to the Crusades and then perhaps settled in Lancashire on
return?? What are the other possibilities?
No idea.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org