wife of Isaac Angelus

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Paul K Davis

wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 16 aug 2005 07:18:01

There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the wife of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Gjest

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2005 19:49:13

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the wife of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

There are several previous discussions of the wife of Isaac Angelos in
the archives of this newsgroup. One is titled "Philip of Swabia 's
mother-in-law" and another is "First Wife of Isaac II Angelos". It
would appear, based on the necrology notices of Irene Angelina, the
wife of Philip of Swabia, that her parents were named Isaac and Irene.
This would be unusual in the Greek tradition, naming a daughter after a
mother.

Akrogiali

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 17 aug 2005 01:28:51

It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady). My
guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

Also the assumption that a "daughter" does not take her mothers name is just
a simply wrong. A view usually expressed by Non Greeks.

There are many reasons why a daughter can finish up with the same name as
her mother. I will name three good reasons.

1. The first daughter is named after her FATHERS MOTHER. (First Son after
Fathers Father, Second Son after Mothers Father, First Daughter after
Fathers Mother, Second Daughter after Mothers Mother). If the fathers
Mother (Grandmother) has the same name as the mother than the baptised child
has the same name as the mother.
2. If the mother dies on birth or is in danger of doing so, the daughter
automatically out of respect receives her dying mothers name.
3. By mistake. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, the "Godfather" determines
the name (not the parents as many may think).
The majority of the "Godfathers" co-operate with the parents in the naming
of the child, however, about 1 in every 15 children in Greece have names
that were not "approved" by the parents before hand. (I guess in Byzantine
times every child with more than one first name may be a victim of this).
..



""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200582165163199@earthlink.net...
There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the wife
of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Gjest

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 aug 2005 02:11:01

Dear Paul,
The Supposition that Isaakios II Angelos ` first wife was an
Irene, daughter of Andronikos I Komnenos was put forth in Pedigrees of Some
of the Emperor Charlemagne`s Descendants volume II (editors Aileen Lewers
Langston and J. Orton Buck Jr (1974) Chapter XL Ludlow- Carter- Lee pp 181-184
lineage compiled by Dom William Wilfred Bayne, O. S. B.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Paul K Davis

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 17 aug 2005 06:06:01

Is there any specific reason for believing this woman was not Byzantine?
Is there any indication what nationality she might actually have been?

Thanks for the info on naming practices.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Akrogiali <akrogiali@westnet.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 8/16/2005 5:43:02 PM
Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady).
My
guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

Also the assumption that a "daughter" does not take her mothers name is
just
a simply wrong. A view usually expressed by Non Greeks.

There are many reasons why a daughter can finish up with the same name as
her mother. I will name three good reasons.

1. The first daughter is named after her FATHERS MOTHER. (First Son
after
Fathers Father, Second Son after Mothers Father, First Daughter after
Fathers Mother, Second Daughter after Mothers Mother). If the fathers
Mother (Grandmother) has the same name as the mother than the baptised
child
has the same name as the mother.
2. If the mother dies on birth or is in danger of doing so, the daughter
automatically out of respect receives her dying mothers name.
3. By mistake. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, the "Godfather"
determines
the name (not the parents as many may think).
The majority of the "Godfathers" co-operate with the parents in the
naming
of the child, however, about 1 in every 15 children in Greece have names
that were not "approved" by the parents before hand. (I guess in
Byzantine
times every child with more than one first name may be a victim of this).
.



""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200582165163199@earthlink.net...
There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the
wife
of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of
Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have
consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


Gjest

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 aug 2005 23:10:02

Dear Paul,
It doesn`t give any sources. I don`t believe any of the
three Volumes of Pedigrees of some of the Emperor Charlemagne`s descendants do. I
own a set.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
ps I have always had reservations about that particular
Identification of Isaakios II Angelos ` first wife as the Irene Komnena given would have
been born 1162 or later, and at most 10 when the daughter Irene Angelia was
said to have been born. On the other hand, her supposed mother Theodora
Komnena born 1144 to Isaakios Komnenos and his wife married as widow of King Baldwin
III of Jerusalem (as his 3rd wife) Emperor Andronikos I Komnenos of
Byzantium. As I recall there was a daughter Theodora as well as Irene. Louda &
Maclagan " Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe Table 77 Austria Babenburg -
Habsburg indicates that Duke Henry II married 2) 1149 Theodora d 1184,
daughter of Andronikos Komnenos (doesn`t indicate the emperor, but who knows) their
grandson Leopold VI married in 1203 Theodora, daughter of Emperor Isaakios II
Angelos. She died in 1246. If her mother were a daughter of Andronikos I and
Leopold VI`s grandmother were indeed her half sister. The Marriage could
never have taken place.
Jwc

Akrogiali

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 17 aug 2005 23:48:46

The only reason is simple.
If she was a "local" lady, someone would have mentioned her. One of her
relatives or one of the admirers of her family or historian.
The fact that nobody mentioned her indicates to me a lady perhaps not from
Royal stock from Georgia, or another eastern area.
It is worth mentioning that there is very little known about the early
"Angelos" family (names etc yes, but birth dates, and other details None).
Information in many cases is not correct and it is very difficult to know
who is correct and who is not..



""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200583174445600@earthlink.net...
Is there any specific reason for believing this woman was not Byzantine?
Is there any indication what nationality she might actually have been?

Thanks for the info on naming practices.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Akrogiali <akrogiali@westnet.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 8/16/2005 5:43:02 PM
Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady).
My
guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

Also the assumption that a "daughter" does not take her mothers name is
just
a simply wrong. A view usually expressed by Non Greeks.

There are many reasons why a daughter can finish up with the same name as
her mother. I will name three good reasons.

1. The first daughter is named after her FATHERS MOTHER. (First Son
after
Fathers Father, Second Son after Mothers Father, First Daughter after
Fathers Mother, Second Daughter after Mothers Mother). If the fathers
Mother (Grandmother) has the same name as the mother than the baptised
child
has the same name as the mother.
2. If the mother dies on birth or is in danger of doing so, the daughter
automatically out of respect receives her dying mothers name.
3. By mistake. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, the "Godfather"
determines
the name (not the parents as many may think).
The majority of the "Godfathers" co-operate with the parents in the
naming
of the child, however, about 1 in every 15 children in Greece have names
that were not "approved" by the parents before hand. (I guess in
Byzantine
times every child with more than one first name may be a victim of this).
.



""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200582165163199@earthlink.net...
There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the
wife
of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of
Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have
consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a
good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]



Gjest

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 aug 2005 00:22:01

Dear Paul,
Roderick Stuart noted the Isaakios II Angelos / Eirene
Komnena marriage in his Royalty for Commoners Line 42, citing ES II:175, G Andrews
Moriarty- Plantagenet Ancestry p 170, Demetrios I Polemis - The Doukai : a
contribution to Byzantine Prosopography (1968) Prosopographisches Lexikon der
Palaiologenzeit 5 volumes reprinted Marburg 1974-1981. Well, at least He used
source notes.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Don Stone

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Don Stone » 18 aug 2005 03:13:08

Akrogiali wrote:

It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady). My
guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

An article by Rudolf Hiestand, "Die Erste Ehe Isaaks II Angelus und
Seine Kinder" in _Jahrbuch der Osterreichischen Byzantinistik_ 47
(1997): 199-208, gives this first wife of Isaac Angelus (and mother
of Eirene-Maria, who m. 2nd Philipp of Swabia) as Eirene.
This comes from the necrology notices of Speyer Cathedral,
which name the Empress [Irene-] Maria, her parents Isaac and
Irene, her elder sister Euphrosyne (named, following the
Byzantine pattern, after her paternal grandmother) and brother
Manuel.

Hiestand's article is of special interest because it explores the
hypothesis that Eirene or Irene, first wife of Isaac II, is a member
of the Palaiologos family, perhaps the daughter of Georgios
Palaiologos Komnenodoukas, megas hetaireiarches (Grand Heteriarque).
This is based on a reference to Andronikos Palaiologos (probable son
of Georgios) as beloved "gambros" [brother-in-law or son-in-law,
though the former is more likely] of Emp. Isaac II in a document
(from 1191) printed in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus's _Analekta ..._, II,
Petersburg, 1894, p. 362. Unfortunately, the genealogy of the early
Palaiologoi is somewhat murky; Lindsay Brook's "The Byzantine
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales," _The Genealogist_ 2 (1981):
3-51, gives (p. 22) Andronikos as son rather than brother of Alexios,
son of Georgios, and _The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_, 1991,
v. 2, p. 1558, gives Andronikos as son-in-law of Alexios. In any
case, _The Doukai_ by Demetrios I. Polemis, 1968, asserts (top of
p. 156) that Georgios had a son Alexios by an unidentified wife.

In a posting dated 1 March 2003 Pierre Aronax expressed a plausible reason
for doubting this proposed Palaiologos connection, but the matter seems to
be still somewhat "up in the air."

-- Don Stone

Akrogiali

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 19 aug 2005 05:03:22

"articles" appear every day and the article you mentioned is one of those.
Her mothers name may have been "Irene" but everything else is baseless
speculation and wishful thinking.

Look at Isaac II father Andronikos Older records show that he married about
1155.
and had 8 children. The birth dates of these children are not really known
(Theodora is given about 1150; Alexius III about 1155 and Isaac II about
1155.
Then is you check further you will find that many dates have been modified
to support new ideas and views.

Is there an original script that actually gives details?????










"Don Stone" <don.stone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:U8SMe.6066$zb.5639@trndny02...
Akrogiali wrote:

It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady).
My guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

An article by Rudolf Hiestand, "Die Erste Ehe Isaaks II Angelus und
Seine Kinder" in _Jahrbuch der Osterreichischen Byzantinistik_ 47
(1997): 199-208, gives this first wife of Isaac Angelus (and mother
of Eirene-Maria, who m. 2nd Philipp of Swabia) as Eirene.
This comes from the necrology notices of Speyer Cathedral,
which name the Empress [Irene-] Maria, her parents Isaac and
Irene, her elder sister Euphrosyne (named, following the
Byzantine pattern, after her paternal grandmother) and brother
Manuel.

Hiestand's article is of special interest because it explores the
hypothesis that Eirene or Irene, first wife of Isaac II, is a member
of the Palaiologos family, perhaps the daughter of Georgios
Palaiologos Komnenodoukas, megas hetaireiarches (Grand Heteriarque).
This is based on a reference to Andronikos Palaiologos (probable son
of Georgios) as beloved "gambros" [brother-in-law or son-in-law,
though the former is more likely] of Emp. Isaac II in a document
(from 1191) printed in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus's _Analekta ..._, II,
Petersburg, 1894, p. 362. Unfortunately, the genealogy of the early
Palaiologoi is somewhat murky; Lindsay Brook's "The Byzantine
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales," _The Genealogist_ 2 (1981):
3-51, gives (p. 22) Andronikos as son rather than brother of Alexios,
son of Georgios, and _The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_, 1991,
v. 2, p. 1558, gives Andronikos as son-in-law of Alexios. In any
case, _The Doukai_ by Demetrios I. Polemis, 1968, asserts (top of
p. 156) that Georgios had a son Alexios by an unidentified wife.

In a posting dated 1 March 2003 Pierre Aronax expressed a plausible reason
for doubting this proposed Palaiologos connection, but the matter seems to
be still somewhat "up in the air."

-- Don Stone

Don Stone

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Don Stone » 19 aug 2005 15:35:57

Akrogiali wrote:
"articles" appear every day and the article you mentioned is one of those.
Her mothers name may have been "Irene" but everything else is baseless
speculation and wishful thinking.

I agree that the mother's name Irene is the only major point in Hiestand's
article that is definite.

"Don Stone" <don.stone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:U8SMe.6066$zb.5639@trndny02...
[snip]
In a posting dated 1 March 2003 Pierre Aronax expressed a plausible reason
for doubting this proposed Palaiologos connection, but the matter seems to
be still somewhat "up in the air."

Pursuing this further would be a useful step in investigating Irene's
possible Palaiologos connection. The URL of Pierre's posting is
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1046520139

-- Don Stone

Peter Stewart

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 aug 2005 03:08:54

Comments interspersed:

"Akrogiali" <akrogiali@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:430284bb$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady).
My guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

Also the assumption that a "daughter" does not take her mothers name is
just a simply wrong. A view usually expressed by Non Greeks.

Not at all: it's a view held almost universally by Byzantinists, of Greek or
any other background, and based firmly on evidence.

It's true that Greeks today who are not students of Byzantine culture are
inclined to project their own modern conventions back onto medieval people.
However, given the tumultuous events that shattered Greek society in the
15th century this popular error is even less appropriate for the Byzantine
empire than it is for Western Europeans to imagine that their medieval
ancestors thought & acted in similar matters just as they themselves do
today.

There are many reasons why a daughter can finish up with the same name as
her mother. I will name three good reasons.

1. The first daughter is named after her FATHERS MOTHER. (First Son after
Fathers Father, Second Son after Mothers Father, First Daughter after
Fathers Mother, Second Daughter after Mothers Mother). If the fathers
Mother (Grandmother) has the same name as the mother than the baptised
child has the same name as the mother.

The case under discussion alone is enough to cast doubt on this. Emperor
Isaakios Angelos was the son of a lady named Euphrosyne, and he gave this
name to his own eldest daughter. However, his brother Emperor Alexios III -
son of the same Euphrosyne and also married to a lady name Euphrosyne,
matching the circumstances outlined above - had three daughters, NONE of
whom was named Euphrosyne (they were Eirene, Anna and Eudokia).

Other imperial families demonstrate the same strict avoidance of the
mother's name even when this belonged also to the paternal grandmother: for
instance, the Sebastokrator Isaakios Komnenos (son of Alexios I, father of
Andronikos I) was the son and husband of ladies named Eirene, and NONE of
his daughters was given this (they were Maria, Anna and Eudoikia); Emperor
Michael VIII Palaiologos was the son and huband of ladies named Theodora,
but NONE of his daughters was given the same name (the legitimate ones were
Eirene, Anna and Eudokia, the illegitimate ones were Euphrosyne and Maria).

There are too many examples of this to suppose that it might be a
co-incidence of infant mortality or have any cause other than a taboo
against passing the name of a parent on to a child. The very high frequency
of paternal grandmothers' names passing to eldest daughters, where these
girls' mothers did NOT have the same names, is equally striking.

2. If the mother dies on birth or is in danger of doing so, the daughter
automatically out of respect receives her dying mothers name.

Plenty of Byzantine ladies died in childbirth - however, I don't know of any
case where the deceased mother's name was given to a baby girl in this
situation. Can you provide an example?

3. By mistake. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, the "Godfather" determines
the name (not the parents as many may think).
The majority of the "Godfathers" co-operate with the parents in the naming
of the child, however, about 1 in every 15 children in Greece have names
that were not "approved" by the parents before hand. (I guess in
Byzantine times every child with more than one first name may be a victim
of this).

Very few people had more than one Christian name in the Byzantine era,
although in the last centuries they tended to accumulate surnames.

I haven't researched the origin of the limitation on naming practice that I
have described, and I don't know of any comprehensive paper on the subject.
However, I suspect that the origin of the taboo against giving parents'
names to children was probably in the vexed question of spiritual affinity.
By the late 7th century some parents were standing as godparents to their
own children in order to have grounds for divorce, since a "co-parent"
relationship was created between spiritual and biological parents that was
held to make their marriage incestuous. In the west, King Chilperic
repudiated his wife Audovera because she had received their daughter from
the font as sponsor of her baptism while he was away on campaign - he had
both mother and daughter claustrated. Canon 53 of the Council in Trullo
dealt with spiritual kinship, banning the marriage of co-parents: in
Byzantium, the Ecloga of Leo III legislated against such abuses of canon
law.

Although a god-parent only chose the name, not necessarily his or her own,
and the same person might stand as sponsor for any number of siblings, I
suspect that avoidance of a parent's name came about originally to
demonstrate beyond question that there had been no sponsorship by that
parent in the baptism, so that no suspicion of "co-parent" incest could fall
then or later on his/her marriage.

Whether or not this was the rationale in the first place, the Byzantine
practice of avoiding a parent's name for a child is undoubted, at least as
far as living parents were concerned if not for all circumstances, and any
alleged exceptions are most likely to be simply wrong conjectures.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 aug 2005 03:44:42

<Nichol_storm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124218153.740506.22730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
"Paul K Davis" wrote:
There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the wife
of
Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of
Swabia,
was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
found any support for this in any of the library sources I have
consulted.

Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
source for yet?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

There are several previous discussions of the wife of Isaac Angelos in
the archives of this newsgroup. One is titled "Philip of Swabia 's
mother-in-law" and another is "First Wife of Isaac II Angelos". It
would appear, based on the necrology notices of Irene Angelina, the
wife of Philip of Swabia, that her parents were named Isaac and Irene.
This would be unusual in the Greek tradition, naming a daughter after a
mother.

The necrology notice in question is from Speyer cathedral, so the name
"Herina" given for Maria/Eirene Angelina's mother is not from a Byzantine
source. It was perhaps assumed by the writer from knowledge that Eirene had
been Maria's original name, rather than from definite information about her
mother.

Peter Stewart

Stewart Baldwin

Children named after parents (was: wife of Isaac Angelus}

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 21 aug 2005 04:55:40

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:08:54 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

....

I haven't researched the origin of the limitation on naming practice that I
have described, and I don't know of any comprehensive paper on the subject.
However, I suspect that the origin of the taboo against giving parents'
names to children was probably in the vexed question of spiritual affinity.
By the late 7th century some parents were standing as godparents to their
own children in order to have grounds for divorce, since a "co-parent"
relationship was created between spiritual and biological parents that was
held to make their marriage incestuous. In the west, King Chilperic
repudiated his wife Audovera because she had received their daughter from
the font as sponsor of her baptism while he was away on campaign - he had
both mother and daughter claustrated. Canon 53 of the Council in Trullo
dealt with spiritual kinship, banning the marriage of co-parents: in
Byzantium, the Ecloga of Leo III legislated against such abuses of canon
law.

Although a god-parent only chose the name, not necessarily his or her own,
and the same person might stand as sponsor for any number of siblings, I
suspect that avoidance of a parent's name came about originally to
demonstrate beyond question that there had been no sponsorship by that
parent in the baptism, so that no suspicion of "co-parent" incest could fall
then or later on his/her marriage.

Whether or not this was the rationale in the first place, the Byzantine
practice of avoiding a parent's name for a child is undoubted, at least as
far as living parents were concerned if not for all circumstances, and any
alleged exceptions are most likely to be simply wrong conjectures.

I have never looked at the Byzantine case, but it seems to have been
common practice throughout western Europe in the very early medieval
period that children not be given the same name as their parents. I
know of no well documented Scandinavian example prior to the eleventh
century, and we have discussed this specific case here in the past. I
also know of no well documented early Irish example, and when this was
discussed in the Early Medieval Ireland list several years ago, Luke
Stevens wrote a computer program to look for such examples in the
Rawlinson genealogies (available online in digital form), and I
believe (if I recall correctly) that the late tenth century was the
earliest undoubted example. (Eochaid mac Echach of Dál Riata in the
early eighth century is close to being an earlier example, but Echach
is genetive for the name Eochu, a name which is distinct from, but
often confused with, Eochaid.)

The earliest clear example from medieval Western Europe of which I am
aware is Charles, son of Charles the Great (Charlemagne). Louis the
Pious also named a son after himself, and the practice was common
among the later Carolingians. Still fairly rare in the ninth century,
the practice of naming a child after the parent was quite common in
Carolingian Europe by the tenth century. However, I have not
attempted to make a statistical study of this phenomenon, because the
gathering of raw data would be so time consuming, and I could easily
have missed some late Roman examples which are technically "medieval".
(Examples from Classical Antiquity are abundant.) I would certainly
be interested in any other well documented examples in the period,
say, from 600 to 800.

Thus, whatever the reason was that the practice of naming a child
after the parent was apparently rare to nonexistent in early medieval
times, this suggests the working hypothesis that the practice of
naming children after the parents became common in Western Europe in
imitation to the Carolingians. I also know of no comprehensive paper
on the subject. I have occasionally thought of writing a short one on
the subject, but the task on assembling the raw data for a more
detailed paper does not look attractive to me. One problem is that an
attempt to colect such data automatically is hindered by the fact that
existing databases tend to be so weak for the early medieval period
that "examples" which turn up are more likely to be undocumented
conjectures.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Children named after parents (was: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 aug 2005 05:54:08

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:50sfg11m085fo7t2ld826cudn5t7vs98nl@4ax.com...

I have never looked at the Byzantine case, but it seems to have been
common practice throughout western Europe in the very early medieval
period that children not be given the same name as their parents. I
know of no well documented Scandinavian example prior to the eleventh
century, and we have discussed this specific case here in the past. I
also know of no well documented early Irish example, and when this was
discussed in the Early Medieval Ireland list several years ago, Luke
Stevens wrote a computer program to look for such examples in the
Rawlinson genealogies (available online in digital form), and I
believe (if I recall correctly) that the late tenth century was the
earliest undoubted example. (Eochaid mac Echach of Dál Riata in the
early eighth century is close to being an earlier example, but Echach
is genetive for the name Eochu, a name which is distinct from, but
often confused with, Eochaid.)

The earliest clear example from medieval Western Europe of which I am
aware is Charles, son of Charles the Great (Charlemagne).

In the previous generation Charlemagne's father Pippin had a namesake son,
documented in various annals with mention of the naming alike as if this had
been considered remarkable - e.g. 'mutavit rex Pippinus nomen suum in filio
suo' in the Lorsch record for 759 and 'natus est Pippino regi filius, quem
vocavit Pippinum' from the Xanten annals (under 758).

Christian Settipani has conjectured another Pippin as son of Pippin of
Herstal, two generations further back in the same lineage, but this is
without a solid basis.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2005 16:10:02

Dear Peter, Paul, "Akrogiali", Stewart, Don and others,

A question.. If Eirene Angelina, daughter of Isaakios II Angelos` mother
was a foreign lady baptized as Eirene on her marriage, would a daughter
possibly be given the same name at birth?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Paul K Davis

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 22 aug 2005 00:20:02

Nevertheless, in the case at hand, we have an Irene whose mother was Irene.
The proposition that started this commentary was that the mother was
probably non-Greek to explain this, but the father was certainly Greek
(Byzantine), so I'm not sure a this would work. I'm somewhat inclined to
think that one of the ladies changed her name during the course of life,
after the birth of the daughter, but this is just a guess.

Concerning the original question, it appears we have essentially no
information on Irene the mother's ancestry. The conjecture that she was a
Palaiologos has, at best, half a scrap of evidence for it, since Andronikos
Palaiologos' brother-in-law relationship to Isaac II can also be explained
by Andronikos marrying a sister of Isaac, which is what Sturdza shows.

Thanks for all the discussion of the question.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 8/20/2005 7:14:22 PM
Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Comments interspersed:

"Akrogiali" <akrogiali@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:430284bb$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine
Lady).
My guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.

Also the assumption that a "daughter" does not take her mothers name is
just a simply wrong. A view usually expressed by Non Greeks.

Not at all: it's a view held almost universally by Byzantinists, of Greek
or
any other background, and based firmly on evidence.

It's true that Greeks today who are not students of Byzantine culture are
inclined to project their own modern conventions back onto medieval
people.
However, given the tumultuous events that shattered Greek society in the
15th century this popular error is even less appropriate for the
Byzantine
empire than it is for Western Europeans to imagine that their medieval
ancestors thought & acted in similar matters just as they themselves do
today.

There are many reasons why a daughter can finish up with the same name
as
her mother. I will name three good reasons.

1. The first daughter is named after her FATHERS MOTHER. (First Son
after
Fathers Father, Second Son after Mothers Father, First Daughter after
Fathers Mother, Second Daughter after Mothers Mother). If the fathers
Mother (Grandmother) has the same name as the mother than the baptised
child has the same name as the mother.

The case under discussion alone is enough to cast doubt on this. Emperor
Isaakios Angelos was the son of a lady named Euphrosyne, and he gave this
name to his own eldest daughter. However, his brother Emperor Alexios III
-
son of the same Euphrosyne and also married to a lady name Euphrosyne,
matching the circumstances outlined above - had three daughters, NONE of
whom was named Euphrosyne (they were Eirene, Anna and Eudokia).

Other imperial families demonstrate the same strict avoidance of the
mother's name even when this belonged also to the paternal grandmother:
for
instance, the Sebastokrator Isaakios Komnenos (son of Alexios I, father
of
Andronikos I) was the son and husband of ladies named Eirene, and NONE of
his daughters was given this (they were Maria, Anna and Eudoikia);
Emperor
Michael VIII Palaiologos was the son and huband of ladies named Theodora,
but NONE of his daughters was given the same name (the legitimate ones
were
Eirene, Anna and Eudokia, the illegitimate ones were Euphrosyne and
Maria).

There are too many examples of this to suppose that it might be a
co-incidence of infant mortality or have any cause other than a taboo
against passing the name of a parent on to a child. The very high
frequency
of paternal grandmothers' names passing to eldest daughters, where these
girls' mothers did NOT have the same names, is equally striking.

2. If the mother dies on birth or is in danger of doing so, the
daughter
automatically out of respect receives her dying mothers name.

Plenty of Byzantine ladies died in childbirth - however, I don't know of
any
case where the deceased mother's name was given to a baby girl in this
situation. Can you provide an example?

3. By mistake. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, the "Godfather"
determines
the name (not the parents as many may think).
The majority of the "Godfathers" co-operate with the parents in the
naming
of the child, however, about 1 in every 15 children in Greece have names
that were not "approved" by the parents before hand. (I guess in
Byzantine times every child with more than one first name may be a
victim
of this).

Very few people had more than one Christian name in the Byzantine era,
although in the last centuries they tended to accumulate surnames.

I haven't researched the origin of the limitation on naming practice that
I
have described, and I don't know of any comprehensive paper on the
subject.
However, I suspect that the origin of the taboo against giving parents'
names to children was probably in the vexed question of spiritual
affinity.
By the late 7th century some parents were standing as godparents to their
own children in order to have grounds for divorce, since a "co-parent"
relationship was created between spiritual and biological parents that
was
held to make their marriage incestuous. In the west, King Chilperic
repudiated his wife Audovera because she had received their daughter from
the font as sponsor of her baptism while he was away on campaign - he had
both mother and daughter claustrated. Canon 53 of the Council in Trullo
dealt with spiritual kinship, banning the marriage of co-parents: in
Byzantium, the Ecloga of Leo III legislated against such abuses of canon
law.

Although a god-parent only chose the name, not necessarily his or her
own,
and the same person might stand as sponsor for any number of siblings, I
suspect that avoidance of a parent's name came about originally to
demonstrate beyond question that there had been no sponsorship by that
parent in the baptism, so that no suspicion of "co-parent" incest could
fall
then or later on his/her marriage.

Whether or not this was the rationale in the first place, the Byzantine
practice of avoiding a parent's name for a child is undoubted, at least
as
far as living parents were concerned if not for all circumstances, and
any
alleged exceptions are most likely to be simply wrong conjectures.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2005 00:29:51

""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-220058021221849477@earthlink.net...
Nevertheless, in the case at hand, we have an Irene whose mother was
Irene.

No, we have a woman baptised Eirene in Constantinople, and renamed Maria on
marrying in the west, whose mother having lived and died in the east was
posthumously called Herina in Germany, on unknown authority or perhaps by
mistake & from no authority at all.

This is not proof of anything to set against the overwhelming evidence that
Byzantines did NOT give a parent's name to a child. If the first wife of
Isaakios Angelos was a Palaiologina as conjectured, she may also have been
daughter of an Eirene, passing her own mother's name to her second daughter.
But again, there is no proof.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: wife of Isaac Angelus

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2005 00:47:03

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message news:1ec.4198f322.3039e514@aol.com...
Dear Peter, Paul, "Akrogiali", Stewart, Don and others,

A question.. If Eirene Angelina, daughter of Isaakios II Angelos`
mother
was a foreign lady baptized as Eirene on her marriage, would a daughter
possibly be given the same name at birth?

In Byzantium a parent's name was not given to a child, so that if a woman
was called Eirene there she would not have a daughter of this name, no
matter what else she had been named previously.

Peter Stewart

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