late-started families?

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Gjest

late-started families?

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 aug 2005 16:42:57

In the family I'm researching I'm frequently come across a problem. I
come across a member whose birthdate is roughly known and his wife's
name at the time of his death -- but his children were born when he was
in his forties or fifties, including his male heir. Given those
circumstances, is it safe to assume that these families were born from
the man's second marriage, and that his twenties and thirties he was in
a marriage to a woman who didn't produce any children who lived to
adulthood, and certainly not a male heir? I hate jumping to such a
conclusion without evidence, but what other alternatives are there? I
would be grateful for your thoughts on this.

I've come across this three or four times in trying to assemble this
family tree, but the really disturbing one is with Richard Morton,
brother of Dr. John who would later be Archbishop of Canterbury. He
was born no later than 1425, yet his male heir was only born c.1470 and
his wife Elizabeth Turberville outlived him.

John Steele Gordon

Re: late-started families?

Legg inn av John Steele Gordon » 15 aug 2005 18:45:42

It would hardly be "safe" to assume a first marriage for which no evidence
whatever exists other than a man's male heir being born when the man was in
his forties.

Just to give a much more modern example:

Henry Steele, b. 1730, aged 30 at the birth of
James Steele, b. 1760, aged 49 at the birth of
Isaac Steele, b. 1809, aged 42 at the birth of
John Nelson Steele, b. 1851, aged 31 at the birth of
John Nelson Steele, jr., b. 1882, aged 39 at the birth of
Mary Steele, b. 1921, who was my mother.

For five generations, the men averaged 38.2 years of age at the birth of
the next generation. None of these men were married twice.

There are simply too many alternative possibilities: he was off on the
crusades, he was shacked up with a mistress for several years (see family of
George III), his early children all died, etc. etc.

JSG

<geraldrm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124120577.898931.152230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
In the family I'm researching I'm frequently come across a problem. I
come across a member whose birthdate is roughly known and his wife's
name at the time of his death -- but his children were born when he was
in his forties or fifties, including his male heir. Given those
circumstances, is it safe to assume that these families were born from
the man's second marriage, and that his twenties and thirties he was in
a marriage to a woman who didn't produce any children who lived to
adulthood, and certainly not a male heir? I hate jumping to such a
conclusion without evidence, but what other alternatives are there? I
would be grateful for your thoughts on this.

I've come across this three or four times in trying to assemble this
family tree, but the really disturbing one is with Richard Morton,
brother of Dr. John who would later be Archbishop of Canterbury. He
was born no later than 1425, yet his male heir was only born c.1470 and
his wife Elizabeth Turberville outlived him.

John Brandon

Re: late-started families?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 15 aug 2005 19:13:13

Just to give a much more modern example:

Henry Steele, b. 1730, aged 30 at the birth of
James Steele, b. 1760, aged 49 at the birth of
Isaac Steele, b. 1809, aged 42 at the birth of
John Nelson Steele, b. 1851, aged 31 at the birth of
John Nelson Steele, jr., b. 1882, aged 39 at the birth of
Mary Steele, b. 1921, who was my mother.


Here's a similar example ...

Paul Macy, b. 1740, aged 40 at the birth of
Paul Macy, b. 1780, aged 33 at the birth of
John Gardner Macy, b. 1813, aged 37 at the birth of
Oliver Macy, b. 1850, aged 51 at the birth of
William Gardner Macy, b. 1901, aged 34 at the birth of
Muriel Macy, b. 1935, my moms ...

which is an average of 39 years.

Or

Almira (Prince) Merrill, b. 1793, aged 31 at the birth of
Caroline (Merrill) Porter, b. 1824, aged 33 at the birth of
Frederick B. Porter, b. 1857, aged 49 at the birth of
Ella (Porter) Macy, b. 1906, aged 29 at the birth of
Muriel Macy, b. 1935

(average 35.5 years).

Gjest

Re: late-started families?

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 aug 2005 19:21:52

I guess I'd better add more details. I can't see that waiting to build
up resources makes sense in this case, because the family was already
wealthy, it just became wealthier at the time these people married.

If Richard brother of Dr. John Morton couldn't have married a
Turberville before the 1470s, he still could have married into plenty
of other gentry families at the middle, and any family at the bottom
would have considered him an upgrade. He was, after all, next in line
to inherit the family patriarchy, and the patriarch was a clergyman so
there was no danger of him begetting a heir. Why delay marriage 20-30
years?

Another example of this phenomenon is from the family's Yorkshire line.
Robert senior must have been born by the 1340s (perhaps even earlier),
but he did not sire his heir until 1380 (i.e., Robert Morton, the
Yorkist loyalist who opens Henry IV pt. 2 by giving the Earl of
Northumberland a pep talk). One can hardly say that he was waiting to
upgrade his status. His father Thomas had been secretary to Edward
III, he himself had been MP from the 1360s on and during the
mid-Fifteenth Century he held every post one could hold, as well as
being retainer to John of Gaunt and
other nobles. He is even less likely than Richard to have been waiting
till his forties to upgrade his social status.

About the possibility that all the younger children died -- that is
obviously the best choice if the span between the father's youth and
the last of the known children is not long. That is to say, there's a
limited window of opportunity to beget children. If a guy marries at
20 (fairly late for a Morton) and his known children are conceived in
the forties and fifties, it's pretty hard to believe that the unknown
(died young) children of his early years are from the same mother as
the children of the later years -- how many women bear children over a
course of 30 years?

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