Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Katheryn_Swynford
Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Conqueror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Conqueror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
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Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Dear Judy ~
Thank you for your good post. I always enjoy reading your posts. Your
articles in Foundations are great, too!
There were several de la Mare families in medieval England. It was a
rather common surname. I doubt they were all the same family, or that
they all bore the same arms as the Delamare family of Wiltshire.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
Thank you for your good post. I always enjoy reading your posts. Your
articles in Foundations are great, too!
There were several de la Mare families in medieval England. It was a
rather common surname. I doubt they were all the same family, or that
they all bore the same arms as the Delamare family of Wiltshire.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Conqueror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
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Jeffery A. Duvall
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
I can't really comment on the Carew/Delamare marriage, but it's worth noting
that this website on the Prathers contains a great deal of speculation on
the supposed ancestry of Jonathan Prather (d. 1680, Calvert Co., MD), none
of which has ever really been documented, at least as far as I know.
Much of the information you'll find on this site seems to be based upon the
"research" (although speculations might be a more apt description) of a
single researcher who (again as far as I can determine) used John W. Prather
Jr.'s, *Praters in Wiltshire 1480-1670* as a starting point and then --
having accepted as fact what was offered as a theory on the link between
Jonathan Prather of Maryland and Thomas Prater of Virginia, and then between
Thomas Prater of Virginia and the Prater family of Wiltshire -- came up with
a series of connections between the Praters and families such as the Carews,
etc.
I should, however, also note that I've not really kept up with the state of
Prather research over the past few years, so I suppose it's possible that
some real proof of all this might have been discovered, but as the website
seems to have been last updated in 1999, and I've yet to see anything
published in any of the mainstream genealogical journals, I'm guessing it
all remains pure speculation.
So, I wouldn't recommend taking anything from this Prather "research" too
seriously or using it to support a case, one way or another, for a
Carew/Delamere marriage.
Jeff Duvall
Original Message -----
From: "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:12 AM
Subject: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
that this website on the Prathers contains a great deal of speculation on
the supposed ancestry of Jonathan Prather (d. 1680, Calvert Co., MD), none
of which has ever really been documented, at least as far as I know.
Much of the information you'll find on this site seems to be based upon the
"research" (although speculations might be a more apt description) of a
single researcher who (again as far as I can determine) used John W. Prather
Jr.'s, *Praters in Wiltshire 1480-1670* as a starting point and then --
having accepted as fact what was offered as a theory on the link between
Jonathan Prather of Maryland and Thomas Prater of Virginia, and then between
Thomas Prater of Virginia and the Prater family of Wiltshire -- came up with
a series of connections between the Praters and families such as the Carews,
etc.
I should, however, also note that I've not really kept up with the state of
Prather research over the past few years, so I suppose it's possible that
some real proof of all this might have been discovered, but as the website
seems to have been last updated in 1999, and I've yet to see anything
published in any of the mainstream genealogical journals, I'm guessing it
all remains pure speculation.
So, I wouldn't recommend taking anything from this Prather "research" too
seriously or using it to support a case, one way or another, for a
Carew/Delamere marriage.
Jeff Duvall
Original Message -----
From: "Katheryn_Swynford" <katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:12 AM
Subject: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Dear Douglas,
Thank you for your quick response and also for the kind words!
Are you aware of any other arms being born by any of the other
branches? I am simply trying to confirm or eliminate the family name
from the list of possibilities.
For example, I have found that there _was_ an Isabella Delamare... who
was the wife of a Richard Delamare; both reportedly were commemorated
by a monumental brass in Hereford Cathedral but I've not been able to
find any other details (found this in a book containing a list of
medieval brasses in England by county).
I've looked through the Patent Rolls, the volumes of IPMs my library
has... A2A...
Ah, but that's the thrill of the case, eh?
Kindest regards,
Judy
Thank you for your quick response and also for the kind words!
Are you aware of any other arms being born by any of the other
branches? I am simply trying to confirm or eliminate the family name
from the list of possibilities.
For example, I have found that there _was_ an Isabella Delamare... who
was the wife of a Richard Delamare; both reportedly were commemorated
by a monumental brass in Hereford Cathedral but I've not been able to
find any other details (found this in a book containing a list of
medieval brasses in England by county).
I've looked through the Patent Rolls, the volumes of IPMs my library
has... A2A...
Ah, but that's the thrill of the case, eh?
Kindest regards,
Judy
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Oh, and for anybody else who is similarly puzzled, the book _Wiltshire
Collections_ by John Aubrey and John Jackson, published by the
Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society* in 1862 (from
notes taken by Aubrey in 1660s), on p. 100 states:
"I find the coate of Sir Robert Delamere, G. 2 lions passant guardant.
[Pl. ix. No. 163.] The coate of Sir Geffrey Delamere (of Suffolk) Or, a
fesse between 2 barres gemelles Azure."
Judy
Collections_ by John Aubrey and John Jackson, published by the
Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society* in 1862 (from
notes taken by Aubrey in 1660s), on p. 100 states:
"I find the coate of Sir Robert Delamere, G. 2 lions passant guardant.
[Pl. ix. No. 163.] The coate of Sir Geffrey Delamere (of Suffolk) Or, a
fesse between 2 barres gemelles Azure."
Judy
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Dolly Ziegler
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
Hello, Katheryn, here are some details:
Herefordshire, Hereford Cathedral. Rich. Delamare, esq., 1435, in arm.,
and wife Isabel, 1421, with SS. collar, double canopy with entablature
slightly mutil., 3 shs. (another lost), large, N[orth] Tr[ansept].
[Illustrations in] B.A.A. Jour., XXVII, 92; Havergal, Mon. Inscr., pl. 15,
figs. 43-5 (shs.); M.B.S. Portfolio, III, pl. 2.
From: _A list of monumental brasses in the British Isles_. By Mill
Stephenson. London: Headley Brothers Ltd. for The Monumental Brass
Society. First printed 1926, appendix 1938, reprinted in one volune 1964.
Cheers, Dolly in Maryland (USA)
For example, I have found that there _was_ an Isabella Delamare... who
was the wife of a Richard Delamare; both reportedly were commemorated
by a monumental brass in Hereford Cathedral but I've not been able to
find any other details (found this in a book containing a list of
medieval brasses in England by county).
Hello, Katheryn, here are some details:
Herefordshire, Hereford Cathedral. Rich. Delamare, esq., 1435, in arm.,
and wife Isabel, 1421, with SS. collar, double canopy with entablature
slightly mutil., 3 shs. (another lost), large, N[orth] Tr[ansept].
[Illustrations in] B.A.A. Jour., XXVII, 92; Havergal, Mon. Inscr., pl. 15,
figs. 43-5 (shs.); M.B.S. Portfolio, III, pl. 2.
From: _A list of monumental brasses in the British Isles_. By Mill
Stephenson. London: Headley Brothers Ltd. for The Monumental Brass
Society. First printed 1926, appendix 1938, reprinted in one volune 1964.
Cheers, Dolly in Maryland (USA)
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Brad Verity
Richard Delamare (Was Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?)
Dolly Ziegler wrote:
Dear Dolly and Judy,
I wonder if the above Richard Delamare buried in Hereford Cathedral is
the same Richard Delamare who was the second husband of Alice Talbot,
younger sister of the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury.
I've been trying to figure out the parentage of Alice's husband
Richard, and so far have had no luck. Wedgwood's HOP incorrectly has
him as an MP, but Roskell's HOP corrects this - the Richard Delamare
who was an MP in the early 15th century was from Buckinghamshire, if I
recall correctly, and was not related to the family of Peter de la
Mare, Speaker of the House of Commons in Richard II's reign. I'm
guessing Alice Talbot's husband Richard was related to Speaker Peter's
family, as they were from Herefordshire.
At any rate, the chronology for Hereford Cathedral Richard Delamare
above would fit in nicely for him being Alice Talbot's husband. Her
first husband, Thomas Barre 'junior' died in 1420, and it appears that
the above Richard's wife Isabel died in 1421. Also, I have Alice's
husband Richard Delamare as sheriff of Herefordshire 1422-3, and I
believe that also fits with what is known about the above Richard.
Richard Delamare and Alice Talbot(d. 1436) had three children - a son
and two daughters, named in the Clehonger chantry founded in 1474 by
their half-brother Sir John Barre, and were dead by that date,
apparently (at least the two daughters) unmarried. A grandson of Alice
Talbot, Sir Richard Delabere (de la Bere, with a 'B' in order to make
things more confusing), of Kinnersley Castle in Herefordshire, son of
Kynard Delabere and Joan Barre, was also buried in Hereford Cathedral,
in 1514.
Do you know anything of the family of the above Hereford Cathedral
Richard Delamare?
Thanks and Cheers, -----Brad
Herefordshire, Hereford Cathedral. Rich. Delamare, esq., 1435, in arm.,
and wife Isabel, 1421, with SS. collar, double canopy with entablature
slightly mutil., 3 shs. (another lost), large, N[orth] Tr[ansept].
Dear Dolly and Judy,
I wonder if the above Richard Delamare buried in Hereford Cathedral is
the same Richard Delamare who was the second husband of Alice Talbot,
younger sister of the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury.
I've been trying to figure out the parentage of Alice's husband
Richard, and so far have had no luck. Wedgwood's HOP incorrectly has
him as an MP, but Roskell's HOP corrects this - the Richard Delamare
who was an MP in the early 15th century was from Buckinghamshire, if I
recall correctly, and was not related to the family of Peter de la
Mare, Speaker of the House of Commons in Richard II's reign. I'm
guessing Alice Talbot's husband Richard was related to Speaker Peter's
family, as they were from Herefordshire.
At any rate, the chronology for Hereford Cathedral Richard Delamare
above would fit in nicely for him being Alice Talbot's husband. Her
first husband, Thomas Barre 'junior' died in 1420, and it appears that
the above Richard's wife Isabel died in 1421. Also, I have Alice's
husband Richard Delamare as sheriff of Herefordshire 1422-3, and I
believe that also fits with what is known about the above Richard.
Richard Delamare and Alice Talbot(d. 1436) had three children - a son
and two daughters, named in the Clehonger chantry founded in 1474 by
their half-brother Sir John Barre, and were dead by that date,
apparently (at least the two daughters) unmarried. A grandson of Alice
Talbot, Sir Richard Delabere (de la Bere, with a 'B' in order to make
things more confusing), of Kinnersley Castle in Herefordshire, son of
Kynard Delabere and Joan Barre, was also buried in Hereford Cathedral,
in 1514.
Do you know anything of the family of the above Hereford Cathedral
Richard Delamare?
Thanks and Cheers, -----Brad
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Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Richard Delamare (Was Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delama
Hi Brad,
Sorry, wish I did. I'm going to try to access the volume Dolly
mentioned with the image of the brass to see if that yields anything.
I'll report back if I find anything.
Kindest regards,
Judy Perry
Sorry, wish I did. I'm going to try to access the volume Dolly
mentioned with the image of the brass to see if that yields anything.
I'll report back if I find anything.
Kindest regards,
Judy Perry
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
I've just found the following, from _History and Antiquities of the
County of Surrey_ -- only wish I'd been smart enough to photocopy the
_title_ page so that I'd have a more complete reference
--
A pedigree for Carrew, "to face p. 523" gives the following as info for
first and second wives of Nicholas Carrew:
"1. Isabel, daughter of ..."
"2. Mercy, or Mary, daughter of Stephen Delamere"
Okay, a quickie google search reveals that my reference is probably the
following:
Owen Manning and William Bray's History and Antiquities of the County
of Surrey (1804-1814);
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
County of Surrey_ -- only wish I'd been smart enough to photocopy the
_title_ page so that I'd have a more complete reference
A pedigree for Carrew, "to face p. 523" gives the following as info for
first and second wives of Nicholas Carrew:
"1. Isabel, daughter of ..."
"2. Mercy, or Mary, daughter of Stephen Delamere"
Okay, a quickie google search reveals that my reference is probably the
following:
Owen Manning and William Bray's History and Antiquities of the County
of Surrey (1804-1814);
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net