Cornwall-Howard update

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R. Battle

Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av R. Battle » 12 aug 2005 08:41:05

In case anyone is interested, I have substantially updated my web page on
the Cornwall-Howard connection (discussion of the career of Richard de
Cornwall, parson of Walsoken and brother of Joan Howard; a short sketch of
the illegitimate descendants of Richard, earl of Cornwall; and extracts of
all of the documents cited). All of the sections are updated, with
hyperlinks from the citations to the extracts cited. The (new) address is
as follows:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rnwall.htm

I would appreciate any comments, corrections, additions, etc.

-Robert Battle

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 12 aug 2005 16:46:12

Dear Robert ~

While doing the research for my book, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004), I
came across an old pedigree of the Howard family in Ellis, Original
Letters of Eminent Literary Men (Soc. 23) (1843): 114-123, esp. 115.

The part of pedigree which interests us reads as follows:

"Joh'es Howard miles senior. = Joh'a soror Ric'i de
Cornubia."

The statement in the pedigree above regarding Joan Howard's family name
is presumably based on the ancient charter cited by Blomefield, 3:158,
in which Richard de Cornwall, clerk, refers to Joan, wife of Sir John
Howard, his sister ["sorori mee"]. I assume this charter was preserved
in Howard family muniments and was consulted by Blomefield at the time
he was preparing his book. That Joan was a member of the Cornwall
family is elsewhere confirmed by the ancient Howard family windows at
Fersfield, Norfolk, one of which shows the Howard arms impaled with the
distinctive Cornwall arms.

As for as other additions to your fine website, you may wish to note
that Walter de Cornwall (died 1313), of Branall, Cornwall [illegitimate
son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall], had a daughter, Margaret de
Cornwall, who married (1st) James Peverell (died 1314), of Hamatethy
(in St. Breward), Newland (in Linkinhorne), and Parke, Cornwall, and
(2nd) before 1337 Richard Sergeaux, of Parke (in Egloshayle), Cornwall
[Reference: Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004), pg. 406].
Margaret had surviving issue by both marriages. She died 1 August
1349, and was buried in the Church of the Grey Friars, Bodwin,
Cornwall. By her first marriage, she is ancestral to Kaherine
Peverell, 1st wife of Walter Hungerford, K.B., K.G., 1st Lord
Hungerford.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the various colonial New World
immigrants who descend from Margaret (de Cornwall) (Peverell) Sergeaux:

1. Humphrey Davie.
2. Anne Humphrey.
3. Mary Launce.
4. Percival Lowell.
5. John Nelson.
6. Thomas Owsley.
7. Herbert Pelham.
8. Edward Raynsford.
9. Mary Johanna Somerset.
10. John Stockman.
11. John West.
12. George Yate.

Margaret (de Cornwall) (Peverell) Sergeaux would be a first cousin of
Joan (de Cornwall) Howard. The proof of Margaret's parentage can be
found in Kirby, Hungerford Cartulary (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 49) (1994):
218.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


R. Battle wrote:
In case anyone is interested, I have substantially updated my web page on
the Cornwall-Howard connection (discussion of the career of Richard de
Cornwall, parson of Walsoken and brother of Joan Howard; a short sketch of
the illegitimate descendants of Richard, earl of Cornwall; and extracts of
all of the documents cited). All of the sections are updated, with
hyperlinks from the citations to the extracts cited. The (new) address is
as follows:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rnwall.htm

I would appreciate any comments, corrections, additions, etc.

-Robert Battle

R. Battle

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av R. Battle » 12 aug 2005 22:51:11

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

<snip>
The statement in the pedigree above regarding Joan Howard's family name
is presumably based on the ancient charter cited by Blomefield, 3:158,
in which Richard de Cornwall, clerk, refers to Joan, wife of Sir John
Howard, his sister ["sorori mee"]. I assume this charter was preserved
in Howard family muniments and was consulted by Blomefield at the time
he was preparing his book. That Joan was a member of the Cornwall
family is elsewhere confirmed by the ancient Howard family windows at
Fersfield, Norfolk, one of which shows the Howard arms impaled with the
distinctive Cornwall arms.
snip


Thanks for the pointers on Walter de Cornwall. In my "discussion" on the
updated webpage I actually mention both of those items (the "my sister"
and the window glazing) with links to the relevant portions of Blomefield.

I would like to get further particulars on the documents mentioned by
Blomefield in reference to Joan and Richard's putative father Richard, as
they would seem to nullify the possibility of their father being identical
with the Sir Richard de Cornwall traditionally given as their father. I
would also like to find out more about the Sir Richard de Cornwall who
possessed the manor of Shelswell, co. Oxford, and what his relation (if
any) was to the family of the earl of Cornwall and to Richard and Joan.

-Robert Battle

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 13 aug 2005 02:08:26

I've read the passages in Blomefield pertaining to John Howard and his
wife, Joan of Cornwall. I believe Blomefield's most telling statement
regarding Joan Howard's parentage is the following passage in volume 4,
pp. 773-774:

" ... and Joan, widow of Richard de Cornwall, on her daughter's
marriage with Sir John [Howard], settled her lands in Pentney,
Nereford, Alesthorp, East Walton, and the 3d part of her manor of
Tirington, on him, and her daughter Joan, and their heirs."

Thus, Blomefield was fully aware that Joan Howard's father was deceased
at the time of her marriage and that her mother was still alive, she
then being a widow. From other records, we know for a fact that Joan,
wife of Sir Richard de Cornwall (died 1297), survived her husband and
was living at the time of John Howard's marriage to her daughter. I
believe this fits together very nicely.

Incidentally, a clue to the parentage of Joan, wife of Sir Richard de
Cornwall, is found in the Cornwall family pedigree of the 1623
Visitation of Shropshire, which reads as follows:

"Rich. de Cornewall 2 sonne to Rich. E. of Cornewall = Joane da. to
Jo. Fitz Allen [Fitz Alan] Lo. of Clunn.") [Reference: Tresswell &
Vincent, Vis. of Shropshire 1623, 1569 & 1584 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889):
145-148.

If the above parentage is correct, then Joan, wife of Sir Richard of
Cornwall, came from one of England's wealthiest families. At the
present time, I don't think there is any primary evidence to prove Joan
was a Fitz Alan. As such, most genealogists would handle this simply
by saying that Sir Richard of Cornwall married Joan, said to be the
daughter of John Fitz Alan, of Clun, Shropshire.

You can find more particulars on all of these people in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004). Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net



R. Battle wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

snip
The statement in the pedigree above regarding Joan Howard's family name
is presumably based on the ancient charter cited by Blomefield, 3:158,
in which Richard de Cornwall, clerk, refers to Joan, wife of Sir John
Howard, his sister ["sorori mee"]. I assume this charter was preserved
in Howard family muniments and was consulted by Blomefield at the time
he was preparing his book. That Joan was a member of the Cornwall
family is elsewhere confirmed by the ancient Howard family windows at
Fersfield, Norfolk, one of which shows the Howard arms impaled with the
distinctive Cornwall arms.
snip

Thanks for the pointers on Walter de Cornwall. In my "discussion" on the
updated webpage I actually mention both of those items (the "my sister"
and the window glazing) with links to the relevant portions of Blomefield.

I would like to get further particulars on the documents mentioned by
Blomefield in reference to Joan and Richard's putative father Richard, as
they would seem to nullify the possibility of their father being identical
with the Sir Richard de Cornwall traditionally given as their father. I
would also like to find out more about the Sir Richard de Cornwall who
possessed the manor of Shelswell, co. Oxford, and what his relation (if
any) was to the family of the earl of Cornwall and to Richard and Joan.

-Robert Battle

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 13 aug 2005 15:14:39

In article <1123895306.810733.18670@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com" <royalancestry@msn.com>
wrote:

I've read the passages in Blomefield pertaining to John Howard and his
wife, Joan of Cornwall. I believe Blomefield's most telling statement
regarding Joan Howard's parentage is the following passage in volume 4,
pp. 773-774:

" ... and Joan, widow of Richard de Cornwall, on her daughter's
marriage with Sir John [Howard], settled her lands in Pentney,
Nereford, Alesthorp, East Walton, and the 3d part of her manor of
Tirington, on him, and her daughter Joan, and their heirs."

Thus, Blomefield was fully aware that Joan Howard's father was deceased
at the time of her marriage and that her mother was still alive, she
then being a widow. From other records, we know for a fact that Joan,
wife of Sir Richard de Cornwall (died 1297), survived her husband and
was living at the time of John Howard's marriage to her daughter. I
believe this fits together very nicely.

I agree that this reference in Blomefield is one of the most suggestive.
What's not clear is the origin of these various acts he appears to
mention: it would be nice to find the documents. At 4:773-4 he mentions
this undated act which seems explicitly a marriage settlement, with the
mother as the grantor. It probably goes with the statement earlier that
they "...married in the 2d of Edward II...").

At 4:697 and again at 4:740 he mentions a distinct act, also dated to 2
Edward II, by 'Richard de Cornwall' to John Howard and Joan his
wife--which is not necessarily the same thing and could have come after
the marriage. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see him state
that the grantor is Joan's father.

The passage that appears to confuse this is a reference to a third
distinct document, also at 4:697 (from Robert's webpage quoting
Blomefield):

[Blomefield] 4:697

³The said William Howard, bought of John Gybon, and Lucia his wife, the 3d
part of 3 parts of the manor of Tyrington, by fine, in the 1st of Edward II.
In the following year John Howard and Joan his wife had 3 parts of a manor in
Tirington, one messuage, and 2 carucates of land in Pentney, Assewell, Thorp,
(Geyton Thorp) Walton East, and Nareford, conveyed to them by Richard de
Cornwall. This was Sir John Howard¹s, (eldest son and heir of William the
judge) on his marriage with the said Joan, daughter of Richard, and sister of
Richard de Cornwall, yet the said Richard had some right still in this town,
for in the 3d of the said king, Richard de Cornwall, the father, as appears
from the eschaet rolls, was found to hold with Battayle the fourth part of a
fee."

[emphasis on last sentence]

Blomefield appears to think, then, that a Richard de Cornwall appearing
in the 'escheat rolls' during 3 Edward II was father (not brother) of
Joan, wife of Sir John Howard. It would be simplest to conclude that
this is simply a slip for 'brother'. The other apparent cited
documents, especially the one in which the mother settles land on the
couple, seem reasonably conclusive.

Or am I just being too complacent as a descendant of this marriage?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

R. Battle

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av R. Battle » 13 aug 2005 22:16:38

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Nathaniel Taylor wrote:

<snip>
Blomefield appears to think, then, that a Richard de Cornwall appearing
in the 'escheat rolls' during 3 Edward II was father (not brother) of
Joan, wife of Sir John Howard. It would be simplest to conclude that
this is simply a slip for 'brother'. The other apparent cited
documents, especially the one in which the mother settles land on the
couple, seem reasonably conclusive.

Or am I just being too complacent as a descendant of this marriage?
snip


Probably not; I would just be more comfortable with this if I could find
confirmation that any of the land in question was indeed previously owned
by either Sir Richard or his wife Joan and was not owned by the Howards.
One possible example of the latter is the following entry in the PRO
catalogue (ref. C 143/35/20):

"29 EDWARD I...William Haward to grant land in Tilney and Terrington to
the abbot and convent of Dereham, in exchange for land in Wiggenhall.
Norfolk."

So, it would appear that William Howard owned land in Terrington (various
sp.) some 7-8 years before his son John reportedly received part of that
manor from Joan de Cornwall. This is not unheard of, certainly, but it
does give me some pause. Blomefield was very probably correct in what he
said and was likely consulting contemporaneous documents for the facts in
question; but for me that sort of implicit allusion is less probative than
actual quotes from documents (such as the one that names Joan Howard as
sister of Richard de Cornwall).

-Robert Battle

R. Battle

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av R. Battle » 15 aug 2005 00:32:26

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, I wrote:

<snip>
I would just be more comfortable with this if I could find confirmation
that any of the land in question was indeed previously owned by either
Sir Richard or his wife Joan and was not owned by the Howards.
snip


As a follow-up to my previous comment on concerns about exactly who owned
the lands in question before they were putatively given by the widow Joan
de Cornwall to John Howard and her daughter Joan on their marriage, here
are some perhaps-relevant quotes from Blomefield (extended from those on
my web page,
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~battle/cornwall.htm>).

To recap from 4:774 - "Joan, widow of Richard de Cornwall, on her
daughter's marriage with Sir John, settled her lands in Pentney, Nereford,
Alesthorp, East Walton, and the 3d part of her manor of Tirington, on him,
and her daughter Joan, and their heirs."

On p. 697 of the same volume appears the following, dealing with
Terrington (various spellings): "Messuages and lands here, were sold (by
fine levied in the 27th of that king [1298-9]) by John de Dulingham, to
William, son of Andrew Howard, and William Howard had lands in Terington,
Walpole and Tilney, conveyed to him, by fine, in the 33d of the said reign
[1304-5], from Robert de Causton; and in the following year, William
Howard was querent in a fine, Robert de Causton and Isabel his wife;
deforciants; of the 4th part of 70 messuages, 2 mills, 500 acres of land,
6 of pasture, 200 of marsh, and 40s. rent in this town, Walpole and
Tilney, granted to William, who granted to Robert and Isabel 60 acres of
land, 40 pence rent, and 2 parts of a messuage, in Terington, and Tilney,
to hold to them and their heirs: this I take to be Sir William, the judge,
ancestor of the dukes of Norfolk. The said William Howard, bought of John
Gybon, and Lucia his wife, the 3d part of 3 parts of the manor of
Tyrington, by fine, in the 1st of Edward II..."

On p. 739 of the same volume appears the following: "In the 21st of Edward
I [1292-3] William Howard, (the founder of the Norfolk family, or a son of
him) purchased of the said Alexander [de Butterwick], by fine, [note b] 20
messuages, 1 mill, 500 acres of pasture, and 40s. rent per ann. in this
town [East Walton], Billeney, Ayleswesthorp and Narford; and in the 20th
of Edward III [1346-7] Sir John Howard was found to hold this 3d part of a
fee, (late Butterwick's)..." (note b: "N. 136")

So, of the places in which lands reportedly came to the Howards via
marriage with Joan de Cornwall (Pentney, Nereford, Alesthorp, East Walton,
and Tirington), the Howards previously owned land in all of those places
(with the possible exception of Pentney). Of course, that does not mean
that the transfer of property could not have occurred, but it does mean
that the fact that the Howards owned land in those places afterwards does
not necessarily support the claim that those lands came to the Howards via
the Cornwall marriage. In my mind, it is more problematic that in the
relevant sections of Blomefield there is no mention of any possession of
the lands in question by the Cornwalls prior to the purported maritagium.

I wonder if perhaps the document(s) seemingly consulted by Blomefield
might actually have been part of a reconveyance of Howard lands to John
Howard and his new wife as part of the marital agreement. Any ideas?

-Robert Battle

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 aug 2005 05:25:03

In article
<Pine.A41.4.61b.0508141630390.79308@dante73.u.washington.edu>,
"R. Battle" <battle@u.washington.edu> wrote:

So, of the places in which lands reportedly came to the Howards via
marriage with Joan de Cornwall (Pentney, Nereford, Alesthorp, East Walton,
and Tirington), the Howards previously owned land in all of those places
(with the possible exception of Pentney). Of course, that does not mean
that the transfer of property could not have occurred, but it does mean
that the fact that the Howards owned land in those places afterwards does
not necessarily support the claim that those lands came to the Howards via
the Cornwall marriage. In my mind, it is more problematic that in the
relevant sections of Blomefield there is no mention of any possession of
the lands in question by the Cornwalls prior to the purported maritagium.

I wonder if perhaps the document(s) seemingly consulted by Blomefield
might actually have been part of a reconveyance of Howard lands to John
Howard and his new wife as part of the marital agreement. Any ideas?

It's possible. I still think that, whatever the precise deal with the
land, Blomefield's wording suggests an unambiguous document naming the
mother of Joan de Cornwall as another Joan, which supports her placement
as daughter of the Richard you've discussed--though the transfer could
be some sort of regrant or other type of act. It would be good to
identify the most likely repositories of this and the other apparent
documents to which he alludes. Does Blomefield give general hints as to
the origin of his source material?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

R. Battle

Re: Cornwall-Howard update

Legg inn av R. Battle » 15 aug 2005 07:40:32

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
<snip>
Robert Battle:
I wonder if perhaps the document(s) seemingly consulted by Blomefield
might actually have been part of a reconveyance of Howard lands to John
Howard and his new wife as part of the marital agreement. Any ideas?

It's possible. I still think that, whatever the precise deal with the
land, Blomefield's wording suggests an unambiguous document naming the
mother of Joan de Cornwall as another Joan, which supports her placement
as daughter of the Richard you've discussed--though the transfer could
be some sort of regrant or other type of act. It would be good to
identify the most likely repositories of this and the other apparent
documents to which he alludes. Does Blomefield give general hints as to
the origin of his source material?

I have no idea where those documents would currently exist, if they do.
One would assume that they at least originally were in possession of the
dukes of Norfolk.

I don't have a complete copy of Blomefield at hand, just the copies I made
several years ago; but on the title page of the 4th volume (whose author
is actually Charles Parkin, the successor to Blomefield in the series
authorship) appears the following descriptor: "Collected Out of
Ledger-Books, Registers, Records, Evidences, Deeds, Court-Rolls, and other
Authentic Memorials."

-Robert Battle

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